PT Count Dooku and Obi Wan's Conversation

Tried searching around for this topic with no luck, so;

After watching AOTC last night, it strick me odd how stupid the Jedi really are. Count Dooku gives the whole plot to Obi Wan during his imprisonment on Geonosis. Why was that so hard to believe if the Jedi have been in constant communication with Palpatine and observing his actions? There are multiple points Palpatine's actions and/or words were looked at with suspicion. Am I missing something entirely?

 

The Jedi had a really bad case of It Can't Happen Here.

 

TPM
MACE: I do not believe the Sith could have returned without us knowing.
YODA: Ah, hard to see the dark side is.

AOTC
MACE: I think it is time we informed the Senate that our ability to use the force has diminished.
YODA: Only the Dark Lord of the Sith knows of our weakness. If informed the Senate is, multiply our adversaries will.

It's the shroud of the dark side. As the dark side grows in strength the Jedi's collective vision is foggier. Also quite ironic that Yoda doesn't realise the paradox in what he is saying - the Sith Lord leads the Senate.

Note Obi-Wan's reaction to Dooku is similar to Padme's in the next film -
OBI-WAN: Chancellor Palpatine is the Sith Lord we have been looking for. After the death of Count Dooku Anakin became his new apprentice!
PADME: I don't believe you. I can't!


But I actually agree about that Ep2 scene tbh, AOTC is the one film of the six where I notice many logic flaws.

 

That isn't a logic flaw. If anything it's cognitive dissonance.

 

I didn't really want to go into that, but a couple more
- Obi-Wan discovering Kamino makes little sense under both scenarios (planned by the Sith or by luck),
- and what about the Jedi learning that Tyrannus hired Jango for the Clone army, then seeing Jango working for Dooku on Geonosis - who they additionally later realise is Tyrannus. They would work out the Sith ordered the army.

 

What better way to hide the truth than disguise it as a lie?

Also, if Kenobi had agreed, Dooku would have had a very powerful ally with whom he could have taken down Sidious and become the Sith Master. Win-win for Dooku.

 

The Jedi have no idea who Tyrannus is. The name isn't associated with any known Sith Lords. Now the use of the army is widely debated, but the Jedi and Senate are driven into a corner because of Obi-Wan being held captive. With the knowledge that the Separatists have an army that easily outnumbers the amount of Jedi they have to protect the Republic they have no choice but to use the army despite how suspicious it is. The army is in turn vetted by Yoda, and proves itself in battle. Initial suspicions melt away both out of necessity, and like I mentioned earlier, cognitive dissonance. The risk of losing control of the galaxy was simply too great to simply toss the most efficient and allegedly loyal army aside because of their questionable origins.

 

Fair points, but as I understand Tyrannus = Dooku was discovered on the TCW show? I don't follow it, personally.

I agree the Jedi were between a rock and a hard place in the PT, I'm generally sympathetic to the Jedi, but elements of AOTC could have been written a bit more solidly Imo, and the whole PT/saga would be strengthened by it.

 

I personally do not consider TCW canon. I can only comment on the films.

I won't disagree that elements of Clones plot are 'rough' or undercooked, but overall I think it functions as a whole. I like that two people can watch AOTC and come up with a separate explanation for what's going on, even after watching ROTS. You can sort of customize your own experience. Clones is the only Star Wars film that doesn't give you both sides of the story. Sidious is in one scene. Everything is almost exclusively from the 'good guys' perspective. The audience is just as much in the dark about the plot as the main characters - well almost.

 

Good points, I particularly agree with the part about customising your own experience. I find this element is generally stronger in the PT than the OT, it really depends on what you as a viewer brings to the table. AOTC is particularly ambiguous, perhaps this is part of why it is so dividing.

Anyway, I can enjoy it as a SW film still. SW are easily my favourite films, and AOTC can be quite crucial if you are to understand 1-6. It's just inconsistent for me, but I get why people enjoy it.

 

war is deception. when you realize who your adversary is, the lie(s) begin(s). even the concept of an opponent rings with the taste of distrust, how can you avoid it?

 

The Sith are known liars and dissenters. They cannot be trusted because of their reputation and Dooku knows that, having been a Jedi himself once. So he tells the truth, but because it is so fantastic, Obi-wan dismisses it right off the bat. Yoda and Mace concur how absurd the claim is, but decide to keep watch over the Senate.

In season six, the Lightsaber of Sifo-Dyas was recovered which lead to the Council to reopen the investigation into his death. It comes out that Sifo-Dyas had been working on an assignment for Valorum, prior to his death. Obi-wan and Anakin learn that there was a witness who could verify who exactly happened to Sifo-Dyas. Silman, who was an aide to Valorum, was lost as well. The two Jedi go to Oba Diah, home of the Pyke Syndicate and learn that Silman is there, though he's suffered a mental breakdown. Silman reveals that there was a third passenger with them, a Jedi who wanted to kill Sifo-Dyas and become him. By which point Dooku arrives and kills him, sent by Sidious to clean up his mess as he didn't do a good job the first time. While fighting Dooku, the two Jedi learn that he is Tyranus, as that was the name that he used to identify himself to the Pyke's. The Council is now aware that Dooku is really Darth Tyranus, but they choose not to inform Palpatine of this because the people's faith in the Jedi will be shot, if it comes out that the army was manufactured by the Sith without their knowledge. The Council does not know what is going on with the clones and because they're lead to believe that the Confederacy has developed a biological weapon to use against the clones, the matter has become even more difficult to discern the truth. Their only plan now is to win the war before the Sith initiate their endgame. This then sets up why the Council is adamant that as soon as Dooku and Grievous are eliminated, that Palpatine resumes negotiations and returns power to the Senate. But because he keeps insisting that the war will only end with total victory, this starts to raise concern that he isn't on the up and up.

 

The Jedi were suspicious of Palpatine, and believed him somehow connected with the corruption in the Senate later on, but never imagined he was the Sith Master they were looking for. He rose to power through humble means, and the Jedi were unable to sense his true abilities.

Meanwhile, Dooku's conversation wasn't taken too seriously by Obi-Wan, who thought he was simply lying. While mostly true, Dooku did lie about certain things to make his plans more enticing to Obi-Wan. It was at this point that the Jedi first became suspicious of Palpatine's connections. Monitoring Palpatine's actions were exactly what they planned to do once he overstepped his boundaries in the eyes of the Council. Anakin was given this task, and even successfully relayed the information that Palpatine was the Sith... before betraying the entire order afterwards.

 

Why Obi Wan should trust the words of a Sith Lord? And even more that words are absolutely against the common sense. I mean, yes the Jedi knew that there is a Sith lord they want to catch him, but how they could understand that he controls the Senate? Because some Jedi and also Republic renegade said that to one captured Jedi? Well, it is ridiculous form their point of view. This conversation is fair example how someone can say things that are actually true, but they could be used as absolute manipulation. Because the rumors, the doubts and the suspect are always more powerful weapons that any Death Star. Now the Jedi -no matter that it looks as absurd for them - will always think about "what if". What if Dooku is right? what if some senator or senators are in alliance with this Darth Sidious? So this is part of the game, of the entire plan: make your enemies doubt in their own people and you are almost win.

 

Jedi and the Republic had been standing strong for countless years. Why would they expect Dooku's words to be the truth?

 

Good point. Had the Republic been less stable (and bloated) his words might have beeb given greater heed. It may have been a case of 'why would things change now'? You're not always going to believe what someone says unless there is obvious evidence or reason to do so. People prefer not to believe that the status quo is no longer. The Jedi almost didn't want to connect what dots they had in front of them.

Of course, I must say this didn't really stick out to me. Apparently the Dark Side greatly reduces one's ability to use deductive reasoning (which I would have thought was independent of force sensitivity), but 'Our ability to use the force (being) diminished' still means one can move throw around large objects such a cyborgs and fight perfectly well with a lightsaber. Go figure...

 

KaleeshEyes That explains why even the strongest of Jedi like Yoda & Mace couldnt sense the darkside of the force within Palpatine even when he was sitting across the table from them. There's some way a Sith can block detection. So when people say the Jedi are dumb because they couldnt figure out, that's false. Palpatine just used a method to stop them from knowing.

 

It was a bit of a double bluff really. Almost Jack Sparrow style from the Count: he'll tell you exactly what the plan is because you won't believe it. And it worked to perfection. The Jedi wasted money and effort chasing leads across the galaxy when they'd known the answer for years... just as planned.

 

A lot of Americans didn't want to believe that Nixon was part of Watergate when it was first coming out.

What it means is what Dooku said to Obi-wan, the dark side had clouded their vision. By the time it would take for them to realize the Sith were there, it would be too late. Normally, the Jedi would sense Palpatine's presence and actions, before he could do anything. But with their powers diminishing, they are unable to see future events with great clarity. The Jedi have no reason to believe that the Chancellor's office was corrupt, because they cannot sense any wrong doing on his part. Likewise, the Jedi have no reason to suspect that Palpatine has ever done anything wrong. He's managed his emotions and buried them deep down. And what's more is that the Sith are playing a different game from before, which is puzzling them. Dooku is out there acting as the Sith before him, but Palpatine is doing the opposite. That is why they cannot make the connection.

 

That was actually the opposite of what I was intending to mean. Talk about awkward...
Palpatine can block the Jedi's ability to use the force to detect him, but I don't see how this could affect their thinking skills, because I though that would generally be independent of force using ability. None of the Jedi, nor many of the separatists and various other minor antagonists seem to be able to make what to the viewer is a pretty obvious connection. Mace Windu at one point even says 'the dark side surrounds the chancellor' yet he still can't put two and two together. Had the Jedi put serious effort into investigating the events they probably could have made the connection. Instead they just sat around in conferences expecting things to resolve themselves. This is a view I though should have been developed further: the Jedi are so bloated and arrogant they fail to see things changing and sowed the seeds for their own destruction. I also don't get how nobody in the senate or Trade Federation or CIS made the connection between Sidious and Palpatine (It's not like they didn't speak with the same cadence and inflection, carry their hands the same way, have the same (lower part of their) faces or have the same body shape and height). Why were they even pledging their allegiance to him if he couldn't offer them anything in return (because it would give away who he is). I don't think the dark side can explain all this. If it can, then it's a lazy explanation.

 

You're arguing from a point of view that only works because we're outsiders watching the events unfold.

The dark side surrounding Palpatine doesn't mean that he's a Sith. It means that they're realizing that he isn't a good guy and may in fact be in league with Sidious. The light side surrounded Valorum, but that didn't make him a Jedi.

The Jedi did investigate matters, but the Sith covered their tracks well. That's why it took finding Sifo-Dyas's Lightsaber for the Jedi to discover that the official record was not matching up with new evidence. It was like a cold case file which is common in the real world, where police will investigate but without a piece of evidence leading them somewhere, their hands are tied.

BTW, Palpatine only holds his arms up as he does as Sidious around Anakin. Around the Jedi and in front of Nute and Rune, he does not.

He offered them power and wealth beyond their wildest dreams. He just lied.

 

What's interesting is, initially, Kenobi doesn't believe him not because he's a Sith, but because he's the leader of the Separatists,and Jedi arrogance.

When they have their first conversation, Kenobi doesn't know Dooku is a Sith. In fact, Dooku asks Kenobi to help him destroy the Sith,and portrays them in a negative light (recounting how Sidious betrayed the Trade Federation). So he had no reason to doubt Dooku based upon Dark Side affiliation. But rather, because he is now basically an enemy of the Republic, and the belief that the Sith Lord couldn't have infiltrated and took control of the Senate right under the Jedi's noses. All stemming back from Mace's initial belief that the Sith couldn't have returned without the Jedi knowing it.

 

I agree that partly it is Dooku's successful double-bluff, while also making us see him as being kind of a mixed guy, but also the fact that the Jedi don't believe it underscores a consistent theme of the prequels for the Jedi. While the Jedi are well-intentioned and are the tried-and-true defenders of peace, justice, and diplomacy, they also are portrayed as really struggling with change. The Jedi seem to be so steeped in their ways that it is difficult for them to adjust to a new situation that requires unique handling. This is not only seen in how they handle Anakin, but also in how they handle the Senate. In both cases they revert back to normal Jedi protocol -- to continue on as usual. And they do this with Dooku's revelation too -- they reject it immediately, instead preferring to continue on as usual regarding normal Jedi vs. Sith relations; Yoda's rationale for rejecting Dooku's logic is because of Dooku's allegiance to the dark side, ergo Sith are liars so you can't believe him. And while that may be true, this in itself is not a good argument against what Dooku actually says. Reliance on old Jedi viewpoints and ways seems to trump new approaches at this point. Yoda is self-aware enough earlier in the film to recognize the arrogance of the Jedi, and that their connection to the Force is being diminished, but it seems that when push comes to shove even the most self-aware Jedi of this period doesn't recognize when the Jedi are fooling themselves. Although Dooku's conclusion about him may have been off, he was right when he says that Qui-Gon was sorely missed. I have a feeling Qui-Gon would have realized the possible truth of this conspiracy Dooku alluded to. Instead, we are just left with the echo of Qui-Gon's teaching in Obi-Wan's hesitant doubts at the end of the film, and that is simply not big enough to go against the tide of the overall Jedi perspective on this, specifically Yoda's (and Mace's).

 

"None of the Jedi, nor many of the separatists and various other minor antagonists seem to be able to make what to the viewer is a pretty obvious connection."




That´s probably something to do with the fact that the viewer is given more information than the characters in the film. Letting the audience to know more than the characters is a technique commonly used in movies to create suspense.

 

It's easy to see the deception from afar but not when it is up in your face