Books CRUCIBLE by Troy Denning: The Official Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Jaden Korr, then.

 

I don't know much about him, or at least I don't remember him. Can you refresh my memory in a sentence or two, please?

 

He's Kyle's apprentice. He starred in Crosscurrent and Riptide.

 

Protagonist for the video game Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy. Kyle Katarn's apprentice. Protagonist in the novels Crosscurrent and Riptide. Haven't read the latter two books, and I figure the game doesn't constitute characterization, per se, so there's not much else I can tell you.

 

Its not simply a matter of age that people complained about the Big Three retiring, its more a matter of the "Heroes" consisting of nobody but the Big Three and support staff. Its pretty clear in this novel that almost everyone, even Lando, are just auxiliaries to the Big Three. As a Big Three novel, its not that big a problem (sub-par plot and way too much gore aside). The problem is that if such a relatively big status quo change like Luke taking a break happens, we need to have some idea of what happens next.

The Jedi discussing what to do with that troublesome apprentice does not paint a picture of a good Jedi Order, and its not like we can rely on the Galactic Alliance to protect the galaxy (well, not until Stazi is born anyway, and that probably won't be for a few years). At the end of TUF with that "retirement scene", we still had quite a few NJO veterans we could expect to handle things. Here, the only NJO character I can think of is... Jagged? And that's as Jedi support and nothing else since he gave up the Imperial head of state job.

Also, its just kind of... hammy how it came about. The adventure wasn't that epic, it was more weird than anything else with fighting inside some weird monolith and after that, ok, retirement. Sure, Luke sort of had a Force vision while drifting in that monolith but the retirement still seems a bit sudden. Not sure the novel brought up Han being old or tired or stuff like that. Han was reminded of old tragedies by the Qrephs but Millennium Falcon read more like a last grand adventure for Han and Leia.

At least some of us have complained about wanting the Big Three to retire, but just stepping back isn't enough, I at least was hoping for a passing the torch moment... but considering everybody aside from Luke, Han and Leia played bit parts, its more like dropping the torch. No surprise for post-NJO books as the books have no idea what they're doing (they're just making it up as they go along, FotJ retconning LotF for instance), but still not a worthy send-off for the heroes of Yavin.

Its almost paradoxical how calm things seem to be so they can retire, yet they're still worried about a lot of things- the Quest Knights are supposed to find Mortis to deal with the Abeloth problem, the Lost Tribe are brought up often, and Jedi-GA relations are a joke at the moment. But ignoring or just dropping plots is nothing new for Star Wars novels, not after Invincible and Apocalypse (I don't mean that as so much an insult aimed at Denning, as while he wrote both supposed "conclusions", its not like he wrote both horrible series by himself, and its hard to gauge how much influence he had on the planning, and both series had bad pacing anyway).

 

But Kyle didn't retire, because Kyle doesn't need no stinkin' retirement.

 

Yes, but unlike Luke, Katarn looks good with a beard.

 

T'was funny, though.

 

As others have said, Luke retiring doesn't mean he'll become completely inactive - and such a move for him, as well as Leia and Han, is well overdue. For me it's not an issue of age as much as them no longer being interesting characters to read about. I believe the Big 3 essentially completed their character arcs at the end of the NJO, with an apparent passing of the torch back then. Yes, since then plenty has happened to the Big 3 and they've been involved in plenty of action, but little of what has happened to them since Dark Nest has been enjoyable/uplifting to read about, and just about any character can have/be part of thrilling action scenes if the writer knows what he's doing.

Also, you are correct in noting that there's little left of the younger generation, and the fault for that lies at Del Rey's door. Bantam created in, added to, expanded the galaxy far, far away. During Del Rey's tenure of the franchise they've killed, torn down, and/or destroyed a lot of what Bantam created. That's not a fault in and of itself, but not creating and establishing nearly enough new younger characters to take the place of those who've fallen is an egregious fault on Del Rey's part. And so we are left with the current situation, where the younger generation feels too small and/or inadequate to become the defenders of the galaxy.

As for Dooku, he was indeed an active powerful Force user in his 90s, but he was also still an interesting character to read about right up until his demise given that he hadn't featured/starred in literally dozens of novels. But by Legacy of the Force, the Big 3 distinctly felt to me like they were painfully treading water for no reason other than "novels starring the Big 3 sell better than those who don't."

 

i agree with you about Han and Leia. But with the right author, Luke can still be interesting

 

Am I the only one who liked the book? Yeah, there were things I didn't like, but after seeing my favorite characters killed throughout NJO, LOTF and FOTJ it was nice that nobody died that I cared about in this novel. I know, that really is lowering the bar. I do think we should get back to more stand alone books or, at the most, trilogies . With these 10 or more book series of novels you have to have a powerful villain and that results in more death to make it realistic.

I liked the pace of the book. I didn't get bored. There were some parts that creeped me out. Tahiri and Ben together made me worry that the authors have plans for them to work together more in the future. I really don't like that idea for the reasons stated all through this thread. I didn't understand why Tahiri was hitting on all the guys. It really seemed out of character. I wish a young original character Jedi Knight was teamed up with Ben. Tahiri really didn't bring anything good to the novel. I would have liked more scenes with Ben.

I was caught off guard when there was sentence describing Vestara as Ben's former lover. I didn't know they were that close since only kissing was described in the previous novels. It could be my definition of lover is incorrect when I think of it as someone you are having sex with.

I was disappointed that Vestara did things in this novel that would make it hard for her to leave the Sith path. I still think she got thrown under the bus by the Jedi in FOTJ...but that is just my opinion. I don't think she should have been put in harms way at the temple and then ignored when she warns the Jedi it is a trap.

Overall, I liked the book.

 

I would define lover as anyone you're in a romantic relationship with, which Ben and Ves were. Ben's a 17-year-old boy, whether the term lover was inaccurate or not he has never "done it" with Ves; even in Ascension he told Jaina when she was going to visit Jag, "Don't do anything I wouldn't," or in other words, don't do anything beyond kissing.

 

I liked the book as well. I can't say it's the best SW book I've read, but it certainly isn't the worst.

 

That's damning with faint praise if I've ever heard it

 

I would describe a lover as someone you've had sex with. Try referring to someone you've only kissed as your "lover" and see what that gets you.

 

I know. If I told anybody in the USA that so-and-so is my lover, I really doubt anybody would think I meant we just kissed. If Ben was 17 years old...then I don't think it odd if he were having sex. After all, he is out blasting people and decapitating them with a lightsaber...I would think having sex would be a minor thing at that point.

But this isn't the first time the word lover was thrown out in a SW novel that confused me. In the Courtship of Princess Leia, Han Solo tells Prince Isolder that he (Han) is Leia's lover. Which would make perfect sense to me, but Leia isn't acting at all like Han's lover. They are acting the same way as they did in their OT kissing days.

 

That's because Wolverton commits character assassination against Leia in COPL, not because she and Han aren't lovers.

 

I gave the book a 2 out of 10 over in the review thread. I think it was just plain bad. needless graphic violence (mind, I don't have problems with violence in sw-books at all), but most of all it was Vestara's decline into uber-sithly behaviour. where does her motivation come from? the last time we saw her, she was fleeing and was kind of sad to have to leave Ben. now she's all evil and merciless. it would have been nice if Denning would at least have explained how she became like that.
also (I don't have the book at hand), wasn't Ship telling her at the end of Apocalypse that he was taking her to another bunch of Sith (i.e. The One Sith)? there's no mention of that in Crucible, she's described as a loner, still. so, all in all, though I didn't have much problems with Denning books until now (though Apocalypse already left a lot wanting) this one was a waste of time, money and characters. --> and that's only the second time I ever felt that harshly because of a SW book (the only other time was "Jedi Trial", which was just undescribably bad and would get a minus rating from me *g*)

 

Well, I'm just telling you. In Ascension it specifically stated that he and Ves didn't.

 

Maybe Denning retconned that.

 

Of all the things that could be retconned in FotJ it's Vestara and Ben's sex life?

 

Wouldn't be the first time someone did a "THEY ACTUALLY @#$%ED" retcon. I recall the exact same kinda thing happened with Caedus and Tahiri.

On the other hand, Ben claiming that someone he only kissed is his lover is hilarious. I wished he'd say it out loud so someone can make fun of him.

 

My point was the author's use of the term lover made me question the extent of their relationship. Also, just because it said they weren't kriff'n in Ascension doesn't mean they didn't do the deed sometime between Ascension and Apocalypse.

I wouldn't be surprised. He seemed obsessed with sexual innuendos in that novel. We have Vestara being lusted over by the ugly villian, Tahiri is flirting with guys, and we have creepy Leia.

Has that been retconned? I thought it was quite clear that Caedus had sex with Tahiri.

 

I still refuse to even consider the fact that Caedus and Tahiri were together in that way, even briefly. Even Allston said it was up to "reader interpretation," and I interpret, "SO did not happen."

Yeah, I can see someone facepalming if he said that. Maybe he doesn't know the proper definition of the word?

 

No mention of Vestara joining the One Sith was a huge hole for me in Crucible

That was made very clear at the end of FotJ that Ship would be taking her to Krayt’s One Sith.

While I appreciate the dilemma that caused, it was all through Denning’s own lack of planning that brought it about. He likes his little throw in lines like that to be “cool”, yet doesn’t follow up on them.

Vestara, as the highest ranking Lost Tribe member, being a continuing villain moving forward that the Jedi are aware of and constantly battling, works well. She has potential, and can grow in strength as she gets older, and she was shown ok in Crucible in that she refused to just go attack Luke Skywalker. She knows her power right now, and through experience can grow more.
So in that regard, I was ok with what she was doing in Crucible.

But that just means you have to completely ignore what Denning himself just wrote at the end of the last book.

And really, there should have been some mention of Krayt. Luke came back in Apocalypse specifically because Krayt was coming back, and again, it was heavily implied that Luke would be searching for him. Now, he decides to “retire” without thought to that?