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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit Books Cynically Reliving the X-Wing Series

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Cynical_Ben, Jan 2, 2014.

  1. Cynical_Ben

    Cynical_Ben Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 12, 2013
    Yeah, the whole idea of releasing criminals from Black Sun onto Coruscant reeks of desperation and politics in equal measure. It was a move that Ackbar doesn't make unless he's sure that there's no other way, and one that serves Borsk and the Bothans far more than it serves the Admiral. And, all credit to Borsk and co., it does work. Having Black Sun on their side (temporarily or not) gives the Rogues some much-needed meatshielding to mask their operations and give the Empire something else to worry about aside from just one team of Rebel infiltrators, something that the mole within the squadron can't really help them keep track of. It's what they call a high-risk, high-reward play. It comes back to bite them a bit, but not as much as might be expected. And, hey, the Rogues do get a new pilot out of the deal (Inyri Forge).
     
  2. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Retired Fleet Admiral star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 28, 2003
    Since you are discussing The Kryto's Trap, now is the time for me to discuss the fish, the legend, THE admiral:

    [​IMG]

    Chapter 11 is arguably one of the best written Ackbar scenes in the Expanded Universe. A whole chapter from his POV, plus we get some fantastic insight into his character, his views and his struggle to transition from a purely warfighting fleet admiral to a member of the Provisional Council with the duties of Supreme Commander.

    The chapter opens with a great quote that Ackbar remembers from his time as a slave to Grand Moff Tarkin, who described politics as "soft warfare, the elegant duel of lightsabers instead of the thunder of turbolasers." In his role as Supreme Commander, Ackbar serves in the Provisional Council and the Inner Council. Ackbar's forces have just taken Coruscant, he has a navy to build and additional Core Worlds to liberate, and he is listening to the Elom councilor discuss the microeconomic fluctuations of NR member worlds. Ackbar notes that Bothans, especially his frenemy Borsk Fey'lya, thrive on soft warfare. Though, being the old warrior he is, Ackbar notes via internal dialogue that he had seen similar tactics used by warriors who sought only promotion, but that "true warfare tended to deal with such ambition in a most lethal fashion." In the early days of the EU, specifically among Zahn's books, there was a tendency to show Ackbar not being very politically astute. Fortunately for all of us, later EU corrected this, showing the admiral quite adept in the council chambers. Stackpole actually started this trend, showing Ackbar display political savvy and being able to hold his own against Borsk. Yes, there is no doubt that Ackbar is more comfortable on the bridge of Home One or in the Defense Force command center, but he is more than capable of "soft warfare" as well.

    Anyways, this chapter is the controversial chapter that sees the NR Provisional Council agree to work with Fliry Vorru in dealing with the various pro-Empire insurgencies that were popping up on Coruscant. One by one, we see members of the council reluctantly to agree to his proposal. Leia seems uneasy, Borsk has no love for Vorru, and Doman Beruss seems to think him crazy. Mon Mothma, the political pragmatist that she is, sees value in his proposal, provided he follows the laws & regulations of the New Republic government. Through it all, Ackbar appears the most uneasy. Remember, Mon Cals are not fans of smugglers, pirates, or criminals. Ackbar, like all military men, respect government & laws. As the Essential Guide to Warfare put best in Ackbar's war portrait, he "ensured that both Dac and the Defense Force were unstinting supporters of the civilian democracy and the Jedi Knights." This sort of man doesn't trust criminals at all, and rightly so. This leads to my favorite line of the good admirals, which closes the chapter:

    "So we must all trust," Ackbar murmured.

    Something dark flashed through Vorru's eyes as he turned towards the Mon Calamari. "I would of thought you above veiled threats, Admiral Ackbar."

    "I am above them." Ackbar's mouth dropped open in a Mon Calamari grin. "I merely meant that we must take your word concerning your loyalty because your previous masters are all dead, and the greatest of them through our efforts. If you choose to read a threat in that set of facts, I cannot stop you from doing so."

    "But if I get out of hand you will destroy me?"

    "You have earned trust." Ackbar learned forward and gave Vorru a wall-eyed stare. "Spend it unwisely and I will do what I must to settle your account."

    I love, love, love that scene. The warrior in Ackbar comes out, reminding Vorru that the man who survived slavery under Tarkin, who built the Alliance Navy from essentially nothing, and who leads the Republic's efforts to liberate the galaxy is NOT a man you **** with.

    ACKBAR IS BOSS.

    --Adm. Nick
     
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  3. Tim Battershell

    Tim Battershell Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 3, 2012
    Great post, Nick! =D=
     
  4. Cynical_Ben

    Cynical_Ben Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 12, 2013
    That is a terrific chapter, one of the best in the book. So many little foibles that make Ackbar who he is rather than just a generic officer type. You can really see the struggle and effort he goes through to form a bridge between the politicians and the military under his command as the New Republic coalesces around him. There's no wonder he serves as the head of the NR's Navy, and it's much easier to see the hole left when he retires prior to the NJO. As great as Wedge, Gavin, Farlander and Bel Iblis are, if Ackbar had been in charge when the Yuuzhan Vong attacked, he would have found a way to put a defense together and possibly even preserve Coruscant, despite the objections of the politicians and his foremost rival.
     
  5. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Ah, so that's what you look like Nick!
     
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  6. instantdeath

    instantdeath Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 22, 2010
    Finally getting to read Starfighters of Admuar. Loving it so far; while I loved the big ensemble of Wraith Squadron, it is nice to dial it down to the bare essentials.

    Also, I can't stop seeing Tomer as Jon Hamm playing Don Draper.
     
  7. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    You forgot Sovv, which is for the best since he was the fool who lost Coruscant. I know Nick's a bit sympathetic to him, but I'll never forgive him. Even Mon Mothma would've done something.
     
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  8. Cynical_Ben

    Cynical_Ben Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 12, 2013
    I didn't forget Sovv. I just... declined to mention him.
     
  9. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    And Kre'fey? You forgot him too.
     
  10. Cynical_Ben

    Cynical_Ben Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 12, 2013
    Kre'fey isn't in a position of power over more than a fleet, his efforts are admirable but ultimately lack much more than lashing out whenever and wherever he can. The issue is that the beings above him are incompetent at best and cowardly at worst.
     
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  11. Ackbar's Fishsticks

    Ackbar's Fishsticks Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2013
    So that was Ackbar's finest moment. Yes, I agree. That was badass.

    I assume we'll get to that later, but, yeah. It's nice that after eight books of Rogues and Wraiths, we finally got one that distilled it town to four and made Wedge the focus of the story.
     
  12. Cynical_Ben

    Cynical_Ben Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 12, 2013
    In terms of TKT and the other three books in this series before we move to The Bacta War in the middle of this week, I'd like to bring another topic up, albeit with kid gloves. Mods, if this is too touchy, feel free to shoot me down and I'll come up with a different topic.

    Let's talk about the birds and bees. Namely, something that's stuck out to me a bit as I've been re-reading these books: Stackpole's frank but non-explicit treatment of the emotional and physical relationships between characters. Erisi tries to seduce Corran, Mirax and Corran flirt almost from the word go, Wedge ponders how long its been since he even looked at a woman, Nawara Ven and Rhysati hook up off-screen and become a couple, Loor sees Isard as an insanely attractive but also unobtainable and fear-inducing goddess of sorts, and that's just in Rogue Squadron. In Wedge's Gamble, we get Gavin falling for a Bothan resistance fighter, Tycho re-uniting with Winter, Erisi again trying to seduce Corran, and Corran's infamous close encounter of the furred kind. The Krytos Trap has a few scenes that mostly serve to progress the relationships we already know about, like Gavin/Asyr being a thing, or the awkwardness of Diric re-emerging into Iella's life just in time to shut poor Wedge down.

    So, with all of that said, there's far more said and thought about in terms of sex and sexualization in these books than in almost any other Star Wars novels I can remember. The only ones that are even close are some of Denning's books, Tatooine Ghost comes to mind, and a few chapters from Destiny's Way. We get character hookups and discussion of relationships in many of Traviss's books as well, but they don't feel the same to me for some reason (probably because the idea of anyone hooking up with a ten-year-old clone squicks me out, but that's for another thread). And the X-Wing books (thus far) have been more mature and sensible about it than pretty much any of the others bar maybe Destiny's Way.

    The thing is, there's not efforts spend to overtly sexualize any of the characters that isn't reasonably explained in the text. The woman wear practical clothing, flirting is verbal and always meant in jest, and the men don't leer at or try to impose themselves on anyone. Erisi, the most openly sexualized character through the first three books, is acting that way on purpose to draw Corran in. While her motivations are up for debate, whether she desires Corrran for his ability, his strength or simply because he provides her a challenge is never explicitly stated. I doubt she was doing so under orders, though, since she took orders from Isard, who considered Corran beneath notice until Erisi brought him to her attention post-Borleias, and not Loor, who would not have thought twice about ordering her to seduce and kill him.

    Most other characters, male and female, are treated with respect and dignity. All relationships are between two consenting adults and discussed in a mature (if sometimes teasing) fashion. I remembered very little of any of this being in these books from my previous read-through, but I can't say I was upset by it. The self-analyzation by both Wedge and Corran as they ponder just what it means to be attracted to that woman, and regarding the barriers both mental and otherwise between them, are refreshingly honest. Yet, everything is also left ambiguous to one degree or another; the most explicit scene we get it a bit of flirting between Mirax and Corran as they share a bunkroom before the first mission to Borleias and Erisi nearly completing her temptation of Corran, still disguised as a Kuati telbund, after they land on Coruscant. And nothing happens in either scene, the moment passes and both parties go their separate ways. At least in the first three books.

    I'd like to hear some thoughts on this matter. It doesn't quite line up with the way the films treat their relationships (where kissing is a high and sacred plateau), but it isn't exactly Game of Thrones, either.
     
  13. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 3, 2013
    Yeah, I noticed when I read them, especially with Erisi. Corran and Mirax flirted, Wedge and Iella...well, I'm not sure what they did. Gavin and Asyr flirted. But Erisi was openly seductive, but it was (as you said) done in a more mature way compared with Denning. The most explicit we get is (IIRC) when Corran's injured in Rogue Squadron, and Erisi kneels down beside his bed to show off her cleavage. Other than that, it's pretty tame and yet open at the same time.
     
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  14. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Couple of belated points, the books are in the loft and I read slow so from memory:

    I really liked Wedge having his own trench run moment on Borleias, not least as it showed exactly how good a pilot he is.

    Lancer-class Frigates - a very neatly logical move, you have capital ships vulnerable to massed torpedo strikes by snubfighters therefore what you need is a dedicated snubfighter killer!
     
  15. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Corran taps Gavin on the shoulder
    "This is where you tell us that hitting a 2 meter target is like bulls-eying womp-rats on Tatooine."

    Or however that quote went.

    That was brilliant.
     
  16. Cynical_Ben

    Cynical_Ben Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 12, 2013
    Just came across a terrific bit of verbal swordplay between Corran and a certain resurrected party in TBW:

    "As long as I don't have to use Jace's tailor, I'll be happy."

    "What's wrong with what I'm wearing?"

    "I hate shorts."

    "On you, who'd notice?"

    [​IMG]

    This book has a lot of great scenes like that one, actually. Setting the stage for Wraith Squadron a bit?
     
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  17. Ackbar's Fishsticks

    Ackbar's Fishsticks Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 25, 2013
    Some of my favorite scenes in The Bacta War are the ones with verbal swordplay. Especially after the two kings of smuggling are brought into it. Especially after the two kings of smuggling are in the same scene negotiating over the same ship, with poor Cracken valiantly trying to keep up.
     
  18. Gorefiend

    Gorefiend Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Mirax and Karrde negotiating is also pretty awesome.
     
  19. Riven_JTAC

    Riven_JTAC Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2011
    And Booster with Darklighter. Just a mental beat-down.
     
  20. CommanderDrenn

    CommanderDrenn Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 19, 2013
    I recently finished Wraith Squadron-while it was a little lengthy, I felt it was much better than some of Stackpole's prose.
    Thus far, my scores would be:
    Rogue Squadron: 6.5/10
    Wedge's Gamble: 6/10
    The Krytos Trap: 6.5/10
    The Bacta War: 5.5/10
    Wraith Squadron: 7/10

    Disclaimer: I am generally quite stingy in ratings.
     
  21. Riven_JTAC

    Riven_JTAC Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2011
    Clearly. o_O
     
  22. Cynical_Ben

    Cynical_Ben Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 12, 2013
    CommanderDrenn, a question. In that rating system you have, what would constitute a perfect score? What's the lowest? I generally dislike number rating systems, so I'm curious how you measure yours.
     
  23. CommanderDrenn

    CommanderDrenn Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 19, 2013
    Yes, I'll admit they aren't the best way to rate books. 1 being the worst 10 being the best, I have yet to find a 10/10 book, and the highest ever would be an 8.5/10, which goes to Return of the King(the book).
     
  24. fett 4

    fett 4 Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 2, 2000
    Just curious but this is more a question the fans and it's not a flame.
    Stackpole took back over from Alston and did Isards Revenge. How well do people think it worked as a transition and in bringing not just Isard but back but a clone too. Do people think that worked or should she have stayed dead.
     
  25. sharkymcshark

    sharkymcshark Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 12, 2013
    I didn't like it, mainly because it wasn't given enough space. One book wasn't really enough to kill (or imprison) two of her seeing as it took four to get rid of her the first time around.

    That's why I felt SoA worked better as a one shot book - it kept the cast and the scope small. Isard's Revenge failed to do that and it felt shallow by comparison.

    As for her coming back as a concept, I wasn't a massive fan but I've not read the relevant comic tie ins so I can't comment on how well it works when someone has the entire context. To me it seemed contrived.