Dagobah Cave Theory

Guys, part of the reason that Yoda goes to Dagobah will be explained in ROTS.

All this stuff about ships crashing, siths dying, etc. It's EU. Not in the movies. I'm talking about the movies, simple as that.

 

Lucas has probably already forgotten about the cave; along with most everything else he wrote before 1997. Since it obviously won't be addressed in Episode III, the EU explanation is as good as any.

 

Wonself: I hate to burst your bubble, but Dagobah won't even be seen in ROTS. No answers as to why Yoda goes there, no mention of it whatsoever.

Sorry mate. Looks like EU is all we're going to get on the subject (which is good enough for me (and, it appears, most everybody else around here)).

 

The cut scene will be on the DVD, and seeing as that will have been written and directed by Lucas, THAT wil be good enough for me.

No Dark Jedi, no spaceship crashing, no force battles.

 

I'm not talking about the scene that was cut. Also, you don't have to see Dagobah to know the reason why he goes there.

It has something to do with Qui-Gon and that's all I will say about it, cuz I don't wanna spoil you guys.

That reason contributes to why Yoda goes to Dagobah and it has nothing to do with dead siths or ships crashing.

 

Is it possible the cave isn't strong ONLY in the Dark Side? Could it be that it also has the Light Side in an equal strength, but it all depends on the individual who goes into it? Because that does have some bearing on the statement "Only what you take with you". If you have Dark Side tendencies, you are more likely to take something in there that will be manifested in a dark way. But if you were leaning more towards the Light, then it might stand to reason that what you carry inside might not be so dark. If any of that makes any sense.

I guess I just never liked the idea of the cave only being strong in ONE side of the Force. Both sides have to exist in equal strengths in order to make the Force work, or so would logically assume.

But this is outside the ken of your general fanboy discussion, so I'll bugger off.

 

Wonself - PM me with what you think the reason is (in relation to Qui-Gon and Yoda et. al.). I've been all over the 3SA boards and don't mind being spoiled. I seriously want to know what you know (or think you know ).

 

But this is outside the ken of your general fanboy discussion, so I'll bugger off.

The first part of that is arrogant assumption, the second, good advice to yourself you should maybe stick to.

 

Calm down, SM, the guy's got a right to voice his opinion whether we agree with it or not.

 

that's sort of what I said DerthNader.

The cave doesn't have any strength in the force at all, it all just depends on who goes in that cave and what kind of emotions he takes with him. Yoda made Luke believe that the cave had some evil power inside it to see who Luke copes with fear.

 

That horrible "Are anything but the films considered canon" argument raises its head again, it always seems to turn a perfectly good discussion into a slagging match.

The fact that all Star Wars novels, comics, graphic novels etc (apart from Infinities) are authorised and produced by Lucasfilm/Lucasarts/Lucasbooks seals it. Either GL or his people have sanctioned the stuff to be printed.

If the argument is that only the films are canon, and nothing else can be considered, then all we have to go on with regards to the Dark Side Cave on Dagobah is that Yoda 'says' that the Cave is strong in the Dark Side. The rest is assumption, as we know nothing else about it.

However my opinion is that the novels etc are all part of the same universe, OK theres been a few mistakes over the years, but just because GL didnt write it doesnt mean he doesnt know whats going on.

 

Deckyrd, of course he's allowed to have an opinion, what he can't do is get insulting however.



That horrible "Are anything but the films considered canon" argument raises its head again, it always seems to turn a perfectly good discussion into a slagging match.

By which you mean, I'm going to voice my opinion, and add to the slanging. Obviously.

The fact that all Star Wars novels, comics, graphic novels etc (apart from Infinities) are authorised and produced by Lucasfilm/Lucasarts/Lucasbooks seals it.

No it doesn't, the EU being referred to here also has Spaarti cloning cylinders (never used in AotC), cloned Jedi Masters from the PT era (never happened), The Clone Wars happening 20-30 years ealier than AotC, (Yes, I know there's a fix, the point is that someone had to write that fix after GL contradicted it) and a conversation about Vader losing his right hand after the battle of Yavin.

Either GL or his people have sanctioned the stuff to be printed.

Well, if you mean his ppl by way of the guys who sanction all the EU stuff, yes, that's their job, they have ppl who do that, and these are the same ppl who have to go back and write "fixes" every time a new film comes out. The films are Lucas' baby, by way of the fashion he has made them without much regard to previous EU, he's shown us in what order things run.

If the argument is that only the films are canon, and nothing else can be considered, then all we have to go on with regards to the Dark Side Cave on Dagobah is that Yoda 'says' that the Cave is strong in the Dark Side. The rest is assumption, as we know nothing else about it.

If the argument is that the EU is canon, we can shut this forum down, and take all film discussion to the Lit forum, where you guys can just play Q&A instead of any real discussion, speculation or talks on what the intention of certain things are during the time of filming.

That sounds oh so very exciting doesn't it?

However my opinion is that the novels etc are all part of the same universe, OK theres been a few mistakes over the years, but just because GL didnt write it doesnt mean he doesnt know whats going on.

He's stated that he doesn't read much of it, he only aproves certain story lines, and he has also said they are a parralell universe to his films.

Now, I don't want to hear "He never said that in an official capacity" or "He wasn't speaking in-universe" Two of the dumbest arguments I've ever heard, and the ppl who say them should be laughed at and mocked until they can take no more.

Fact is, I, like many, come here for film discussion. A subject like his comes up and we're denied the ability to discuss the mythological representations of such a scene, what the tree and cave represent as per the mythical ethos of the hero's journey.

Instead, we get "Yoda killed a dark jedi there END OF DISKUSIION!!!11!" And frankly, I'm sick to death of it.

You can't talk film in here, you can only get a bunch of pseudo fictional historians telling us that somehow a book written in 1990 effects a film in 1980.

Film forum guys, think the EU is canon all you want, but respect the fact that film fans like to actually discuss aspects of film.

I'm reminded of a sig someone once had around here:

"Discussing Star Wars was so much more fun before 1991."

 

Well put, Sith Magician.

I remember reading somewhere a looong time ago (and I don't remember where, it was back in my CompuServe days, which was many years ago), that Lucas referred to EU as "glorified fan fiction." Wish I could remember the source...

The EU definitely has its place, but it is nice to speculate what the creator's intention was...what the possible meanings could be for different scenes in the films. Just because Zahn, Stackpole, or some other author came up with an explanation doesn't necessarily mean that was the original intent. And it doesn't mean George won't trump them when he finishes the prequels.

Bickering over what is canon serves no purpose. Perhaps the question could have been phrased "within the context of the films, blah blah".

 

Thanks dude, and I remember that quote too.

Perhaps the question could have been phrased "within the context of the films, blah blah".

Well, it is the film forum after all

 

Lucas refered to EU as glorified fan fiction?
maybe he should have stopped it then
instead of getting his share of the profits
he is arrogant enough to think that only he can write star wars stories
then why did he let anyone else do it?
i think that was a misunderstood comment by lucas
where was it from?

The fact that all Star Wars novels, comics, graphic novels etc (apart from Infinities) are authorised and produced by Lucasfilm/Lucasarts/Lucasbooks seals it.

No it doesn't, the EU being referred to here also has Spaarti cloning cylinders (never used in AotC), cloned Jedi Masters from the PT era (never happened), The Clone Wars happening 20-30 years ealier than AotC, (Yes, I know there's a fix, the point is that someone had to write that fix after GL contradicted it) and a conversation about Vader losing his right hand after the battle of Yavin.

who said that there is only one way to clone in AoTC or even in EU?

i think there was a lot more going on besides what we saw in PM and AoTC, so how do you know Jedi Masters werent cloned?
that isnt relevant to episode I or II
so why would they mention it

it makes no sense for star wars fans to continue to be down on the EU novels
im not saying that everyone should read and memorize every novel like its a movie
but come on
do you only want those 6 episodes?
or do you want to continue to know what happens to our heroes and villians?
dont you want to know more about what happens to the rebels after the death star blows up
and wouldnt you like to know more about the Empire
what happens when the leader of a galaxy dies, what does everyone under him do?
its interesting stuff

i am not down on anyone who doesnt read the novels
thats not a big deal
but everyone who doesnt read the novels shouldnt be on everyone else's case just because we like to continue the story
it is all star wars
people should just get over it already
not all EU is great stuff
but you know what?
not all the movies are great stuff either
episode I was pretty lame, as was II

 

Bashing the prequels will not win you any arguments.

Besides, I do read and enjoy some EU. All I'm saying is that here, in the film forum, we should be able to discuss the films from the standpoint that they are a sepearet work to the EU. As in, one is filmed, the other published. And given that Lucas makes one and not the other, there will be differences in intent for each and every moment in those films.

Sure, we want to know stuff beyond the films, but we also should be able to speculate without being told it's already been written, and we gotta go woth that. (And yes, despite the policy here, this still happens).

As for Lucas having to have said something before making cash off it. you are the commander of your own destiny, the power to keep your wallet safely in your pocket lies with you.

 

Lucas refered to EU as glorified fan fiction?

Yes, he did. If I knew the source, I would post it. Considering how long ago he made the quote, it probably wouldn't even be available.

maybe he should have stopped it then. instead of getting his share of the profits. he is arrogant enough to think that only he can write star wars stories then why did he let anyone else do it?
i think that was a misunderstood comment by lucas
where was it from?

Lucas is arrogant enough to consider the Star Wars galaxy his creation. And that as such he is not beholden to anything that other authors create. When he sits down to write the prequels, he isn't going to read every single EU piece out there to make sure he keeps continuity with things other people wrote within his universe. He'll write his own story, and if there are inconsistencies with the EU, so be it. It will be up to other people to reconcile the EU with the films.

And, to be honest, if I were Lucas, I'd be the same way.

it makes no sense for star wars fans to continue to be down on the EU novels

I'm not down on the EU novels. Some of them are quite good. However, it is nice to discuss things within the context of the films and ignore the EU. You know...try to decipher what George's intent was (and not what a Sci Fi author thought the intent was).

or do you want to continue to know what happens to our heroes and villians? dont you want to know more about what happens to the rebels after the death star blows up and wouldnt you like to know more about the Empire what happens when the leader of a galaxy dies, what does everyone under him do? its interesting stuff

Sure I do, and sure it is (interesting stuff).

However, what flows from the pen of Mr. Lucas takes precedence over EU for me. And, it seems, to Mr. Lucas as well. I don't understand why people take such offense when someone wants to discuss scenes within the context of the films.

 

I've said it once, I'll say it again: Not every damn mention of an EU fact is an infringement of your right to discuss the movies EUless and I'm sick of people getting all worked up every freaking time a Dark Jedi or the Mayor of Sernpidal is mentioned. IGNORING is the key to YOUR e-happiness!

by the way, what's the topic again? I might add something worthwile, too, if I knew where we are...

 

I try to ignore it TJ, but when you have ppl posting after you have ignored it telling you it's all "official and that seals it" well, they're gonna get my reply on that.

And conversely to your point, my dismissing the EU doesn't impede on them reading it or discussing it in the Lit forums.

 

the original post was about the cave in dagobah.

we got a little side tracked to say the least

 

I think the Dagobah cave is just something that exists. The new movie may give a more detailed explanation, but I think the explanation we will be given is the reason why Yoda goes there. It is because this is where the Jedi Masters take their padawans to go through these "trials" that we keep hearing about in the PT.

 

I don't think so

I don't believe that there is one special place where Padawans get trained. The reason for Yoda, apart from hiding, has to do with the force.

 

There is the indication in the prequels that each padawan reaches a point at which they must go through some specific test or "trial" as the PT puts it. If they pass, they become a Jedi Knight. If they fail, they have to wait and train more. Luke failed in ESB.

Anyway, my point was to simply say that this is why Yoda knows about the planet of Dagobah. He may know why the Dark Side exists in that cave. I just don't think that Lucas is going to explain this. It's just something we have to accept. This is where the Dark Side lives so to speak.

 

why is everybody so sure about the darkside in the cave?

as shown by the movies, the force has alot to do with state mind and emotions. My theory, though may not correct, is completely plausible and actually simple enough for fans to understand.

why would the darkside exist in that cave? every living thing has the force, it's what binds us...what we do with the force however all has to do with emotions, feelings, opinions, etc. A cave has no way of experiencing these things and therefore cannot reach into the darkside nor the lightside. A sith died in that cave?...if so, then how would the darkside still be in it? everything a sith touches becomes tainted with the darkside? I don't think so.

Yoda tried to scare Luke...and with success. If there actually was some kinda darkside in there then why did he tell Luke to leave his weapons?...wouldn't it be dangerous for a young kid to walk into something with a huge darkside presence?

"What's in there?"..."Only what you take with you" - such as fear, anger, hate, etc. Yoda didn't say...well actually there's a dead sith inside that cave ( which would be completely irrevelant to Luke's trials ).

So once again...Yoda tells Luke that the cave has some kinda darkside inside it. Yoda said this to see how Luke would cope with that knowledge - is he scared of the darkside? does the darkside make him angry?. Luke takes these emotions with him and they manifest themselves in Vader. Luke get angry and scared and decapitates Vader. Vader's head blows up showing Luke's face which indicates that Luke gave in to the darkside. Therefore, Yoda knows that Luke isn't ready yet to deal with Vader as Luke's still pretty unstable and "clumsy" in the ways of the force. He cannot put the whole darkside/lightside thing in perspective yet, so that's why Yoda and Obi-Wan insist on Luke finishing his training so that he has better control of the force and his emotions.

does this sound so strange to you guys?

 

Luke asks, "What's in there?"

Yoda says, "That PLACE is strong with the Dark Side of the Force. A DOMAIN of evil it is. In you must go."