ST Darth Plagueis in IX

If the Plagueis novel is canon (or becomes canon) Palps is not the first one.

 

Yeah, well with Momin in the new comics too. It probably takes different forms of how they do it, specifically, but seems established by now Sheev isn't the first.

But yeah, all I'm getting at is if we take it that Palpatine did learn what Plagueis knew, ie. in EpIII he was being honest and forthright and not bull****ting Anakin for manipulation's sake, then George has absolutely set this up. And at that point Plagueis becomes irrelevant story-wise, because everything interesting about him Sheev can now do himself.

At least it's sounding like Sheev has been screwing with events this whole 30 years somehow. What would Plagueis' excuse be for waiting 50, and letting Sidious rule all that time? Biding his time for the long game kinda seems to be more Palpatine's dealio personally rather than the Sith in general, the master manipilator. Going by the book Plagueis comes off more as a mad scientist Mengele type of wackjob, not so sure he'd be the political/real-life-chess beast that Sheev is.

 

Plagueis is a superior choice of villain to Plapy, although I heart Plapy, simply because his return is less cliche than Plapy's return.

Even Darth Talon was a much better idea than Plapy's return, although LFL probably made a wise choice by nixing a female character who seemed formed by a sexist representation (she is usually depicted in an excessively sexualized fashion).

 

That all works. If done well, no problems here. All I can say is Plagueis may have worked really well as an Uber Villain for the ST. Using the past narrative I can provide many reasons and justifications for thinking so. Namely, it supports Luke’s observation that Palpatine was overconfident and the culminating visual destruction of both Palpatine by the protagonist and his super weapon. Plagueis also fits as a narrative motif we find ringing throughout the series. Last, it provides exposition material to be explored in future narrative.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

And at what point will you realize that you are in a totally irrational thread (similar to the Anakin one...or the RJ Trilogy) that is occupied by mindless braindead Plagueis groupies like me and that no matter what argument you bring in AGAINST Plagueis the Wise being the key to all - you will have immediately a lower status than Mike Zeroh?

Asking for a friend (Plagueis fan) .

 

With the return of Palpatine and all these possession and body-hoping rumors, I would say that the possibility that Palpatine and Plagueis always were one and the same becomes plausible. When you think about it, Palpatine almost begued Luke to "strike him down" with his lightsaber, so his journey toward the dark side could be "complete". Maybe, that's the way the Sith masters have found to reach immortality. They take apprentices that they use as enforcers for a few years until they are so powerfull themselves and so corrupt that they can take on their own master. When they strike in anger, they realize too late that they basically surrendered their body to the dark entity that was hiding inside him. Palpatine never was Palpatine. He was several - maybe dozens of Sith lords - merged into one, and that's why he was the most powerfull Sith lord ever. As long as his spirit survives, the cycle goes on and on, potentially forever. The perfect antithesis of the Jedi path and their philisophy about death.

I was always creeped out by the moment in ROTS when Palpatine shows compassion to Anakin and stops his pain on the lava shore when he retrieves him. It made the Emperor human for a brief second. But, if he always wanted Anakin as a vessel for his own immortality, it makes perfect sense. He morned the great body he had coveted for decades. As soon as he learns that Anakin had a son, the plan is rebooted whith a new Skywalker. And, if Palpatine is growing impatient by now, I can imagine that he was ready to possess Luke's body as soon as the battle of Endor.

After that, I like to believe that the "dark entity" revived whatever it could to survive and we ended up with "Snoke". Maybe it was actually Plagueis' body after all, with lightsaber wound in the head and all, just a temporary body to contain the essence of the dark side until Kylo Ren was completely corrupt. It would make all Snoke's endless quoting of Palpatine in TLJ a lot less lazy, as it would be a solid clue for the truth, and less of a reash. As his "Snoke identity" has been destroyed, it's time for the wizard of Oz to reveal himself for the great final.

I could get behind that as a George Lucas concept for the ST, by I think this should have been set up as soon as episode VII. The Snoke subplot, wether he was Palpatine all along, or just some random dark side master, will seem like a cop out now.

 

I’d say Plagueis is portrayed as a Island of Dr. Moreau type in the book than anything else. But that’s only part of his character, the other half is the neoliberal who uses his wealth and power to manipulate events. But that’s the book and at this point irrelevant.

As to the question of “What was Plagueis doing between trilogies?” You know as anyone that that question can be inferred and it’s not too hard to imagine or explain when dealing with powers over life and death, a central them in SW taken to its logical conclusion. But an overarching villain in theory might be playing one side against the other. Stoking conflict furthers goals. It’s all good.

“Please allow me to introduce myself,
I’m a man of wealth and taste.
I’ve been around for a long, long year,
Stole many a man’s soul to waste

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game"

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I've speculated almost the same thing!

If you think about it, it's really the only way the Rule of Two works since the Siths' own nature would normally prevent them from helping their apprentices get anywhere near strong enough to challenge them.

My speculation is that both the Sith Masters and Apprentices are being possessed and manipulated by this Ancient Sith, but they aren't consciously aware of it. I take this point of view based on the new Canon novels stating that Palps tells his trusted advisers that he was feeling a "signal" from the UR since before he was emperor, and that he'd been calculating a route to this signal and sending resources out there for a long time.

Some disembodied Ancient Sith (AS) has been waiting out there, growing in power- all the while using the Rule of Two Sith line to continue to prime the galaxy for its return. The new Canon novels tell us that Palps confessed to not knowing the outcome of his upcoming encounter with Luke and Vader on DSII- he only knew that if it turned for the worst and he was killed his "true power would be revealed". This sounds exactly like he's being manipulated into thinking that death at the hands of Luke or Vader could lead him to his long awaited prize. I think the endgame for this AS was to get Palps struck down by either Vader or Luke on the DSII so it could possess one of them and manipulate them into coming out to the UR where they could be fully taken over; this AS thought either Luke would turn and strike him down out of anger or he could torture Luke if he didn't turn until Vader struck him down out of anger- either way the AS could move on to one of them. This would fit in nicely with the drama that plays out on the DSII and it also would help explain why Palps own Force Lightning could deep fry him in ROTS while longer salvos shot into Luke on the DSII left no scarring at all. The AS wasn't about to damage his final vessel if he didn't have to. Palps had to be scarred to scare the republic into fearing and turning on the Jedi, and Vader getting scarred was out of his control.

I think the only reason the AS hadn't manipulated Palps into bringing Vader out as his final vessel earlier on is that Vader was a heavily damaged vessel and the jump calculations to get to the source in the UR didn't get completed by the Jakku Observatory until shortly before the events of ROTJ- after Palps (and the AS) had been made aware of Luke's existence.

 

I just can't see them getting into it. Plagueis was usurped by Palpatine, let his guard down and got complacent (much like Sheev would do in a sense later, by overestimating his stranglehold on Anakin's destiny), he died. Sheev bested him in all the machiavellian shenanigans.

We know Sheev's been laying some sort of vast plan since way back in the early days with Rax and Jakku and the observatory yadda yadda, if Plagueis somehow survived Palpatine-style post-death I don't know why he'd just let Palpatine stack the decks in his favor that way.

There's also the whole thing of 99% of the audience not knowing who the hell Plagueis is anyway, one scene from 2005 isn't going to ring any bells for Joe/Jane Average viewer. Some big reveal of "Dun dun DUUUUN, it was Plagueis manipulating 50 years of the GFFA all along!" isn't going to hold an iota of the weight it does with a Palpatine reveal.

 

Die, Plagueis! Die!

 

There is so much negativity in this thread

 

Not sure anyone here sees them getting into it.

There has been little in terms of set up for Palpatine’s return. They are effectively unraveling the OT denouement in order to find some legitimate way to conclude the ST. The master of Palpatine who cheats death was a way to move forward without Palpatine, as Yoda was a way to move forward without Old Ben. There is always a bigger fish.

If Palpatine returns more powerful than before I think it a mistake. He should literally be a shadow of his former self. And now we set him up to knock him down again. We know his fallibility. We’ve already seen it. We are unable to say that about Plagueis, we only heard it from the unreliable, overconfident Palpatine.

Edit: Who the hell is Rax and who cares?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

There have been 6 movies that set him up . . .

The ST is not the beginning and end of Star Wars.

 

A new villain like Plagueis would have been fun. Snoke is such a non-entity at this point he doesn't qualify. Plapy returning does some Saga connection (hopefully), but Plagueis could have brought a new dimension without undermining Anakin's Plapy take down.

Kylo Ren also doesn't feel like a true villain at this point. The ST basically lacks a villain after two films.

I'd have been more open to more oldness like Plapy returning if we'd had something new leading up to it. Snoke barely does anything (in the movies).

 

When Kylo took off his helmet in TFA the audience including me burst out in laughter. I had high hopes for Snoke but we all know how that played out.I still expect a lot from the KOR/Palps/MattSmith only to be disappointed again.

 

It's worth accepting that Plagueis was solely invented as an expository point for convincing Anakin of the possibility of saving Padme. Palpatine himself cheating death is much more interesting.

 

I have been a staunch supporter of all Plagueis theories, but I must admit that I think any chance of this has all but perished. I personally have always found that the Opera scene of ROTS was a setup scene for a possible sequel trilogy, but it is my own fault for believing that.

But once I saw Snoke, and Snoke's physical appearance (like someone that was a rotting corpse at some point, with some sort of major light-saber wound to the forehead, in my head canon, Plagueis was confirmed.

I think us Plagueis-guys are now just falling victim to the fallacy of being disappointed in not getting the story we wanted. To me though, I would have preferred the ST to be about a bigger, more powerful bad guy, the ultimate bad guy that was behind the events from start to finish, including the origin of the Skywalker bloodline, rather than a simple good guys vs. bad guys film that concludes with a return of the previous bad guy we already saw die.

We'll see how it plays out though.

 

The fact that Kasdan doesn't even know who Plagueis is kind of decanonizes TFA, IMO. It can't be canon if the author hasn't read the stories he's following...

 

Yep it looks like at most Plagueis will just be the one that taught Palpatine how to keep his spirit alive (before he killed him of course making sure he couldn't do the technique himself). And poor ole Anakin thinking Palpatine would actually really be able to keep others from dying besides himself.

 

This is a curious argument. You seem to be suggesting that Lucas never changed his mind about characters, or that characters never evolve in importance over time.

 

Put it another way: Palpatine is a fully established character. Plagueis is a reference.

 

Forever? What are you saying?

 

Palpatine's involvement in the saga justifies his return in TROS more than resurrecting a character who only previously existed as a piece of exposition.

 

Palpatine died. Jabba was a reference. None of it matters.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk