Darth Sidious, a coward?

Dear Jedi-Queen, good points however what their best choice is is highly debateable.

Whether or not they go after Sidious has nothing to do with whether they are soldiers. "General Kenobi" et al. All the Jedi were soldiers during the Clone Wars.

I think the crux of this arguement is well spotted in re: to those saying the Jedi order itself would be at stake and therefore irresponsible of Yoda and Obi-wan to take on Sidious at this point. But:

Why then do Yoda and Obi-wan agree to do something much riskier such as splitting up and Yoda then taking Sidious on his own - And Obi-wan - defeating Vader, on his own.

And, most of us are assuming the Jedi were not yet extinct, yet they even could have involved a few more survivors either to take out Sidious or employ later in re: to the children.

And, 20 years for 2 vulnerable children to protect (while Yoda on Dagobah protecting reptiles) is -I believe- a bigger gamble than 2 accomplished, highly talented jedi who are ready to go..

I think Sidious is insanely amazing, and the owner of ultimate power, but I have faith in 2 Jedi of Yoda's and Obi-wan's capabilities who I believe would have toppled him, if ...

You guys almost convinced me but I remain a believer in the 2 against one when it comes to Sith vs Jedi(and vice-versa).

 

Let's take and overview.

Palpatine took control of an intergalactic government through slow, meticulous manipulation, guile, and genius.

First, he is not a coward. Some argue the fact Palpatine didn't reveal himself means he acted cowardly. Wrong. His ultimate goal was to become a dictator. You simply can't do this by revealing that you are in fact a member of a society believed to be extinct that's sole goal is to "rule the galaxy." You must be secret.

1. Secrecy does not equal cowardice.

Second, Papl. did not run away from the fight. He just chose a different time and place for the fight. Brilliant strategy. Papl.'s plan all along was to reveal himself to Anakin. Due to the conflict in Anakin(noticed by everyone), Palp. knew Ani would go and inform the council of the Chancellor's id. Palp. also realized even if Ani did not tell the council the death of General Grievous would force the council to take action in connection with Papl. emergency powers. Palp. then used the Jedi's coup attempt to turn the public against them. Brilliant.

2. Choosing the time and place for a fight is good strategy not cowardice.

I could go on, but no point in making the post longer than it already is.


*** Yoda used these methods to perfection as well. He kept secret on Dagobah and chose the right time for the fight by training Luke as the future.

 

The cowards are Obi-wan and Yoda for not going back to stop Sidious when it was 2 jedi against one Sith. At this point,as far as Obi-wan and Yoda were concerned, Vader was ash on Mustafarr. Why oh why didn't they go back and attempt to kill Sidious? or arrest him or hang him up by the scrotum for all to see.

i might agree they were cowards if yoda hadn't already fought sidious.

I am going on the assumption that yoda realizes sometime durring, probably at the end, of the fight with sidious that he can't win this battle. He can't win it alone, he can't win it with obi-wan's help and he probably couldn't win it with the entire jedi order standing next to him.

The main reason for this oppinion on my part is pure speculation and has to do with why i think mace came close enough to put sidious on the ropes but yoda didn't, they sold me on mace being closer to the dark side than yoda.

Once yoda realizes he can't win that fight, there is no cowardice in trying a different way, just as there is no cowardice in sidious choosing a different way than standing outside the temple and calling out the jedi to 'take him on'.

The cowardice on yoda's part would have been if he'd refused to train luke for fear of being caught by the empire if they got a hold of him later, that didn't happen.

retreating from a lost battle, choosing not to fight when you won't win, is never cowardice, it's smart.

 

does anyone else think its cowardly of anakin to behead shaak ti from behind? not even give her the benefit of a fight? doesnt even allow her, a warrior's death? a decent and fitting end to a jedi master, and member of the council?

 

The impression I got from the fight was that after Sidious was thrown across the room by Yoda, he was caught completely off guard and add in the fact that he then tried to high tail it out of there suggests he was on the run. That's my take.

 

Yes, I think Sidious is sort of a coward. Why? Well after all, fear is an integral part of the dark side (how many times haven't you heard this one?). All dark-siders feel fear (Sidious fears loss of his own life and power, Anakin fears loss of Padme).

That said, being a coward isn't the same thing as being a wuss. Sidious is certainly not a wuss (a wuss would never try to take control of the galaxy). He just takes the easy way out if there is one. If there isn't, he fights. It's that simple.

 

does anyone else think its cowardly of anakin to behead shaak ti from behind? not even give her the benefit of a fight? doesnt even allow her, a warrior's death? a decent and fitting end to a jedi master, and member of the council?



Maybe thats why it was'nt actually in the movie. Although i wish it was. I dont think anakin cares about a worriers death, he stragles his wife. I think it's quite clear his morals went out the window when he signed up to be a sith.

 

I think there is something that we really need to keep in mind- this is, after all, a story created by GL. In film and literature, the artist most often has sculpted events to lead viewers/readers toward a particular conclusion that leads the story forward. The authoritative view on the story belongs to it's creator.

I don't think that it's unreasonable to assume that GL favors good over evil (in general) although he creates some very cool and formidable villains that you both love and love to hate. He ends the original trilogy with good winning a decisive victory over evil. We don't see much of Palpatine in the orginal trilogy but we assume that he's pretty wicked until we see him in ROTJ and decide that he needs to be defeated because he is one of the most vile creatures ever to cross the silver screen.

Now GL has completed the prequel trilogy and given us enough background to form an even stronger opinion of Palpatine/Sidious. To get someone really excited about the triumph of good over evil, you need both an intellectual understanding of which is which and a passion for the side that you favor.

All this being said, I honestly believe that GL has DESIGNED Palpatine/Sidious as a coward.

How does it make you feel when you think of the darkness into which the galaxy has been plunged in Eps. 4-6 and now see that Palpatine/Sidious cheated death twice? It made me feel that the sudden death he experienced in ROTJ by being tossed into the reactor core was infinitely kinder than he deserved.

No one who favors good triumphing over evil ever wants to believe that evil is stronger and vice-versa. We are in GL's universe and he clearly favors the former.

I might be mistaken but I don't know if Anakin had yet entered the room when Mace Windu had disarmed him and knocked him to the ground- I think he walked in right after this happened. Mace was doing more than just keeping his saber still because he was able to make Sid/Palp's energy bolts converge on his blade where they would be accurately reflected right back at him ( note that in other scenes, those darkside bolts diverge rapidly after leaving the source (his hands). If Sid/Palp's was only pretending to be defeated then why continue to fry himself while Mace was obviously not being harmed at all by his attack? He was desperate. He wanted to survive whether his energy attack finally broke through Mace's defenses or Anakin helped him cheat. Let's also keep in mind that most SW fans really like Mace and seeing him defeated by a cowardly play makes you despise Sid/Palps even more.

Also, if Sid/Palps wanted to appear helpless so that Anakin would come to his aid, why unleash the violent energy attack that ultimately mangled him. I don't buy the argument that he was reverting to his true form but if that was the case it just demonstrates that he was so wounded that he could no longer assume a fair form. Either way, he was toast.

The whole display is much more than just Sid/Palps making Anakin turn on Mace and the Jedi, it's GL making us hate him for being a weasel. Don't get me wrong. Sid/Palps is formidable but he wins by being underhanded. When evil people triumph fair-and-square, people grudgingly accept that they have won (like Maul killing Qui-Gon) but you still give them props. Incidentally, does anyone wonder why GL broke up Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon in TPM during the duel... most likely so we could accept that Obi killed Maul fair-and-square.

Sid/Palps also was cocky with Yoda at the beginning of their duel but Yoda was also being coy in the office after he'd been knocked to the floor (remember the one eye that was open while Sid/Palps walked towards him, taunting him?). If he could have killed Yoda in the Senate chamber, he would have followed him to the floor but he stayed at the top and went to get the troops (they were his slaves) as back-up. He had already begun publicly demonizing the Jedi, so Yoda's only chance to conquer the growing evil was to retreat b/c he would soon be facing not Sid/Palps but a clone batallion and this open defiance to

 

- He killed his master in his sleep

that is not true:

No one is quite sure how Palpatine was first introduced to the power of the dark side. He is the most powerful practitioner of the Sith ways in modern times.

-source: official star wars website, www.starwars.com

 

The only coward in the entire serious is C3PO; atleast for main characters. Being afraid is natural. A coward is someone who avoids his/her responsibilities because of that fear.

But consider that Sidious allowed Anakin to alert the Jedi and simply waited patiently for thier arrival. Sidious wasn't even afraid of the Jedi. Even against four he laughed at thier effort. The only time he dropped the cackle is when Yoda tosses a pod at him and causes him to have to jump out of the way. The conflict with Mace was intended as a rouse to play upon Anakin's sympathies.

The last word I would use to describe Sidious is coward. The fact that he planned and pursued Revenge on the Jedi shows that he didn't fear anything, not even the entire Republic and all of it's guardians. Just because he kept himself in the shadows for a time doesn't make him fearful. Anyway as the old saying goes "He who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day." There is nothing cowardly about retreat, if it's the best tactical option.

If anyone in ROTS was a coward, it was Anakin. Though I sympathise with his lifelong ordeal under Palpatine's manipulations, Anakin ran from his own duties to the Republic and the Jedi (at the very least the younglings) because he feared a world without Padme. That's the essence of cowardice.

 

ROTS might imply that Plaegus was Palpatine's master, but it isnt proven

i agree w. the user above me, on about everything

 

From the original script and novelization:
Palpatine: "Fool! Do you think it is my fear that you feel?"
This was said to Mace Windu after their battle, indicating that Anakin was the only scared one in the room.

The ROTS Visual Dictionary also states that Palpatine had been looking forward to such a battle for his entire life and Windu failed to realize that.

"A coward is someone who avoids his/her responsibilities because of that fear." This is true as well. Fear alone doesn't equal cowardice.

And finally, if you claim he's a coward for killing Plagueis in his sleep, that opens a big can of worms. It means that Dooku is a coward for killing Syfo-Dias in his sleep as stated in the novels and it means that Anakin is a coward for murdering children and a choking a defenseless pregnant woman. Personally, I think it's simply convenience, ruthlessness and apathy.

 

It implied through the two conversations that he has with Anakin.

1) Opera scene: Palps says that Plagueis was killed by his apprentice, obvious glee on Palpatine's face remember this moment.

2) The "reveal" scene: Tells Anakin that his mentor taught him about the force - even the nature of the darkside.

I think we're expected to put 2 and 2 together.

 

All in all i think hes a coward the reason is that he didnt want Yoda to get close in the battle because he knew he would definatally lose in saber duel so he mainly used the force and then when he thinks yoda is far enough away he calls on a squad of clones to finish up now thats just lazy and cowardly.