Did Anakin's slaughter of younglings make it hard for you to 'forgive' him in ROTJ?

Seeing as how it has always been my conjecture that Vader's "redemption" in ROTJ was the biggest line of you-know-what ever sold to us in this series, the slaughter of the innocents leaves me indifferent. Frankly, the man was beyond redemption when he assisted Tarkin in destroying Alderaan, tortured his daughter, and brutalized his son. Murdering monks, striking down children, and throttling a pregnant wife are just three more strikes against ol' Ani.

Heck, if this universe were under the providence of George Lucas, one would expect invites to be sent to Robert McNamara and Henry Kissinger for a few astral-form soirees in Vietnam. (Imagine Kissinger singing that yub-yub song over one of the burial sites he helped fill.)

 

Redemption has several meanings. As Lucas says, Anakin can never redeem himself in the way that most associate. That he can never make up for the crimes he committed, due to the fact that he does not live long enough after turning back to do this. But he is redeemed in that his son helps him out. That Luke finds that shred of goodness and coaxes it back to the surface. That Anakin comes back from the state of decline that he was in, in order to save his son and the entire galaxy.

Can mass murderers ever be redeemed? It is possible. But can they be forgiven? Harder to say with any degree of certainty. Forgiveness and redemption are two different things. Luke can forgive his father for his crimes, because he loves him unconditionally. He overlooks all of these flaws and instead focuses on the good. When Anakin dies, he is redeemed by his final act of goodness. He is forgiven by Luke. He does not get the chance to prove himself to others. He does not get the chance to earn the forgiveness of others. He does not make up for his crimes. He just stopped the horror.

 

Your words would resonate with me, had our last image of Anakin/Vader been that of his burning husk atop the funeral pyre. But there is that astral form with which we must contend. And the disturbing connotation--for there is only one, as I see it--to the peaceful visage of Shaw/Christensen is that Luke's forgiveness was all that counted; Vader didn't get the chance to earn the forgiveness of others because I doubt Lucas considers it relevant. In this, I fear David Brin may be correct in averring that Star Wars is ultimately rooted in the apotheosis of demigods. Through Anakin, there is the amelioration of the Jedi, and the destruction of the Sith. Fin. Sadly, screaming children and Alderaanians are but mere mortals, hardly meritorious enough to demand justice from the netherworld.

This, for me, was the principal blunder of the series. Not midicholorians. Not the sweeping aside of Padme and Leia in their respective third entries. It's that astral form. Whether Anakin united with the Force, or was thrown into eternal madness, was a query best left to the viewer. One paltry ambiguity in that all-too-tidy bookend would have meant the world.

 

If anything, Anakin was more sympathetic. If the clones had to kill the children, the death would more painful. With a saber they don't even feel it cause the death is quicker and cleaner opposed to a blaster. Anakin somewhat even showed remorse for what he was doing, he had to do it and therefore I don't find it hard to forgive him.

He realizes what he's doing is wrong the whole time, but he's such a broken human being he can't stop. He kills children when slaughtering the tuskens too.

 

I find it interesting that we come from a society whose religion or religions preach forgiveness. And yet, deep down, we're unwilling to truly forgive the transgressions of others, even if those transgressors have expressed real remorse or have suffered for their sins.

I guess that despite our claim, deep down we are an unforgiving society.

 

To which I respond with this.

"In addition to the Zen-like Force that "surrounds us and penetrates us...(and) binds the galaxy together," as Obi-wan tells Luke, another Eastern religious element can be found in Vader's resemblance to demons that, in the Buddhist tradition, were at one time human and, through the actions of Buddha or his followers, are freed from their demonic state.

They usually wind up dying and through death are released from their demonic state. Again, that's a parallel to Vader, who is only freed at the point of his death."

--Shanti Fader, USA Today article and "Star Wars And Philosophy."

Lucas, being one who studied Buddhist traditions, used that for the scene at the end where we see Anakin once again. The concept is that when Anakin became Vader, he became a monster. A demon, if you will. Through Luke's compassion as a student of the Force, frees his father from his demonic state. The Jedi Masters allow Anakin to be seen by Luke as an acknowledgement of his salvation.

The Force=Buddha
Luke Skywalker=follower of Buddha
Anakin Skywalker=former follower of Buddha
Darth Vader=demonic form of Anakin Skywalker


Vader only wanted to turn back because of Luke. Luke believed in him despite all his crimes.

"It really has to do with learning," Lucas says, "Children teach you compassion. They teach you to love unconditionally. Anakin can't be redeemed for all the pain and suffering he's caused. He doesn't right the wrongs, but he stops the horror. The end of the Saga is simply Anakin saying, I care about this person, regardless of what it means to me. I will throw away everything that I have, everything that I've grown to love- primarily the Emperor- and throw away my life, to save this person. And I'm doing it because he has faith in me; he loves me despite all the horrible things I've done. I broke his mother's heart, but he still cares about me, and I can't let that die. Anakin is very different in the end. The thing of it is: The prophecy was right. Anakin was the chosen one, and he does bring balance to the Force. He takes the one ounce of good still left in him and destroys the Emperor out of compassion for his son."

--George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS page 221.

The justice for Alderaan came at Yavin 4 and at Endor. The justice for the deaths of the Jedi came at Endor. The Jedi in Obi-wan and Yoda already forgave Anakin long ago. Luke does when he acknowledges that Vader is his father. Padme already forgave him when she died. There's no reason for Vader to be punished further, since he was already punished to begin with. He lost his wife, his physical self, his humanity, his friends and 24 years with his children. His life was one of purgatory. A living hell until his son helped to free himself of the shackles of the dark side.

 

The more and more I think about it, the sicker it become. I mean seriously, killing children?

 

Exactly. And that's the real "tragedy" about Anakin. He was a total jerk. From the moment he?s approaching manhood, he?s an annoying obnoxious, arrogant show off. And the beyond that he?s a homicidal sociopath. He shows it at first with the Tuskens. And then with the younglings and then with other Jedi, whom he kills. He was a cowardly traitor to boot.

And doing it ?for love? is hardly excuse when we find out Little Ani is also a wife-beater who attempted to kill his own pregnant wife. All for what? To feed his ego and meet his own desires. And in the end, he goes out like chopped up sucker. What a clown. Much less so than forgiving Anakin, is the issue of do you ever even like this guy in the PT? As a Jedi he was a joke. And just as a warrior he?s pretty much a wuss. People are calling him a ?broken man? because he had a nightmare about his wifey dying? What kind of hero would let that drive him over the edge? He makes no attempt to protect her outside of following Palpatine?s blatant lies.

It just would have been better if Anakin actually demonstrated some true character and heroism at some point in the PT before he took the Dark Side plunge. It would have made he and the story much more compelling. But instead he goes from annoying, to jerk, to flat out murderer and killer of children. That?s not the best character arc.

And then in the OT, when he?s beaten down and has no options left he kills Sidious. A noble gesture, no doubt, but hardly something that really earns a lot of forgiveness. By not reaching a high point as ?the good man I once knew? his fall really was not that moving. And consequently, neither is his ?redemption.?

 

i disagree .they were only six years old .if they recived no trained for the rest of there childhood then they would not be powerful enough to fight vader .another option was to train them as sith that way palpatine would have a choice of successors.

 

i like the character anakin/vader but killing younglings made it very tough. killing in the name of a corrupt empire regardless of younglings or adults is tough to forgive. i do think vader had remorse for his actions but that's still no excuse. i found it odd that vader could return so easily to the good side of the force and appear as a jedi ghost at the end of ROTJ. Does the lightside requier no repentence for evil acts done? is one good act at the end of a life enough to redeem someone. maybe i'm looking to deep into it. in understand goerge had a movie to make and time constraints. but the killing of children leaves an indelable impression on anyone.

 

You know, I had a problem with that also. I didn't see any real examples of Anakin being an overly good (or even just good) man or a hero. He was sort of heroic as a child in TPM, but in AOTC and the beginning of ROTS it seemed like he just begrudgingly went along with Obi-Wan and acted very un-noble most of that time. Maybe it isn't just the slaughter of younglings that makes it hard to forgive him. Maybe it's everything. Before the PT I pictured Anakin as being this very heroic man (as you mention, Ben's line ?the good man I once knew?), saving people and in general being a good person. But it wasn't there in the PT.

 

Unforgiving? Not quite, but we have our limits. Our hearts tend to harden when the destitute are involved. We advise the homeless to "get a job!" We liken prostitutes and drug addicts to degenerates. Politicians, on the other hand, merely have to mouth a mea culpa and we applaud their moral courage--no matter how many people suffered or died as a result of their egregious legislation/foreign policy.

My antipathy for authority figures marks me as a deviant in this society. I didn't shed a tear for Ronald Reagan; rather, I wept for his victims in Central America. Likewise, I don't get choked up when a fictional butcher like Darth Vader, Lord of the Sith gets his fiesta amongst the teddy bears.

 

You can study the Force by yourself. Obviously, it's much better to be taught by Yoda, but you can discover and learn on your own. Also, there are only 2 Sith at a time, and the younglings Jedi indoctrination had already begone. Who knew if any younglings were destined to become powerful, but it's irrelivent because no one could become stronger than Vader. Palpatine got meal ticket, Anakin. That's the only Jedi he desired.

See, the problem is if Anakin is very heroic, and the ulimate Jedi, than the question becomes, then how did he fall to the dark side? Anakin can't be perfect, because then he wouldn't fall. Take for example Obiwan, A Jedi's Jedi. There's no chance in hell he's going to turn. So Anakin's got to have problems and issues for him to legitmately fall to the dark side. Now, I'm all for Anakin as a former slave, power hungery guy that has an inferiority complex. But his characterization in AotC was quite a turn off. He was an arrogant, immmature inarticulate jerk basically. He rushed Dooku and paid for it, he ends up losing his limb. But that's the turning point. He realizes he isn't half as good as he thinks he is, so during the war he goes to work, trains hard, serves the Jedi and the galaxy well. He and Obiwan become galactic heros that the Republic counts on everyday. During the events of RotS, he's characterized as extremly heroic and the Jedi's greatest warrior. But he isn't the Jedi's greatest Jedi. Being distant from Padme as the fear eating away at him. So he goes to the dark side for her. But by the time the speak on Mustafar, the dark side has consumed him. Darth Vader has always been in his heart we see. He desires power because he never had any when he was little, he's got a complex because he couldn't save his mother as a Jedi. Personally, I found his characterization to be perfect in RotS. No doubt, Anakin Skywalker was a hero in the clone wars. He had issues due to his childhood and he couldn't handle the commitments of the Jedi Order.

 

You took the words right out of my mouth.

This is why I can't for the life of me view it as one big saga: because every time I see Darth Vader's mask, all I see is a messed-up punk who threw away everything he ever cared about in the name of a few convenient lies. That just doesn't work for me. Anakin is supposed to be a good man, but I can't find that man in the PT.

In regards to the destruction of Alderaan, yes, that was an atrocity, but there's just something about seeing those children right there in front of you that drives home the horror of it all.

 

Nope. Back then, he was twisted by the Dark Side. Star Wars is a story of hope and redemption, so when Anakin relieves himself of the Dark Side, he has redeemed himself. In the process, he had to make the sacrifice of death. I forgave him for many very reasons.

 

The terms redemption and forgiveness are not interchangeable. I don't forgive Anakin / Vader for the evil things that he did and neither does Yoda. That image of young Anakin was reward to Luke for the role that he played in bringing balance to the force by destroying the Sith. Don't take that to mean that Vader is forgiven for all of the things that he did. For all we know Anakin's next gift after that photo op with Yoda and Obi Wan is a one way ticket to hell.

 

You're damn right, it made it hard for me to forgive him. Meeting the enemy in battle and striking them down in a contest of arms is one thing. Slaughtering a room of barely-trained, inexperienced children is quite another. He didn't even have a particularly good reason. It wasn't the first atrocity he comitted, and it certainly wasn't the last.

Tossing the Emperor down a shaft hardly made up for years and years of evil, nor did it really show any change in Anakin at all. In the prequals, he betrayed his side and killed people to save someone he loved. What did he do in ROTJ? He betrayed his side and killed people to save someone he loved. Again. The only difference was that this time, he died rather than get horribly mutilated, and the guy he killed really deserved it. Considering the guilt he had to have felt and the hellish agony he had endured for 20+ years, I'm sure that becoming one with the Force was a relief to him. It was a small gesture...but at least it was there. It showed that he did feel sorry and that he did want to be redeemed. That counts for something.

I never bought that prophesy bunk, but if there really was a Chosen One, it would be Luke Skywalker. He did the hard part. He was the heroic one. He found it in his heart to forgive and unconditionally love a flawed and tortured mass-murderer, to stand there, willing to die for him. He was the one who really brought balance to the Force by bringing balance to its avatar in his final moments.

 

While we may not always agree, I agree with you on this one. It's a very sad thing indeed when we cannot forgive. We don't have to do it right away. But it should always be a possibility. To not forgive it to live in hate.

Remember that Luke was a threat even though as far as Palpatine and Vader knew, Obi-wan and Yoda could no longer help him.

Sidious: "He could destroy us."

Vader: "He is just a boy. Obi-wan can no longer help him."

And even Obi-wan points out the dangers in having a child who has knowledge of the Force.

Ben: "The Emperor knew as well as I, that if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him."

The children who have knowledge of the Force are a threat to the Sith. They will continue to grow powerful and come after them. That is why the children had to die. And Palpatine could not risk having these children trained, because they will be used by Vader against him. There are two Sith at a time, no more and no less. One to embody the power, the other to crave it.

 

Heh, you're seeing an argument where there is none. I didn't say that Anakin wasn't redeemed, because he was. I just said that it was hard to forgive him, which I did. I can see where he's coming from, and if I wouldn't make his exact mistakes in his position, I'm sure I'd find plenty of things on my own to screw up.

Sure, if you want to look at it in a purely cold and calculating matter, yeah, Anakin needed to take a lightsaber to a bunch of kids if he wanted to be a Sith. Looking at it with your heart, with your feelings, however, it's quite clear that murdering a kid is very, very wrong. It's hard to imagine a Jedi killing Sith children for any reason, however, because doing so is a very dark act.

Now...I will argue that killing Palpatine was NOT a selfless act. Dying to save someone you love is not a selfless act. Dying to save a total stranger...that's different. That is selfless. Dying to stop the Emperor for the good of the galaxy is a selfless act. Dying to save your kid is not selfless, because there is a very real attachment there. Not that I'm saying it's a bad thing. On the contrary, it's a good and human reaction.

 

In regards to murdering the younglings, that one action isn't any worse than all of the other atrocities Vader has committed. If Vader is redeemable after all of the deeds he committed in the OT, then there is no reason to suddenly draw the line because he slaughtered children.

I feel that murder is murder, and the age of the victim doesn't make it any worse a crime. People always seem to become outraged over seeing children murdered. For example, all the controversy in 1931 when the Frankenstein Monster drowned a girl in the lake. Even in our somewhat desensitized society, people still can't stand to see children die. Although children may be innocent, their lives aren't any more valuable than anyone else's. There's no reason to regard Vader's actions as any more despicable than what he did in the OT.

Blowing up an entire planet, senselessly murdering incompetent Imperial Officers, and ruthlessly slaughtering Rebels is just as evil as killing children or choking your wife. Is a domestic abuser more evil than a genocidal dictator? I don't think so. Murdering many people is even more evil than simply harming a family member. The former situation involves many crimes, while the latter situation only involves one crime.

Evil people are not honorable. They only care about their own self-interests. Evil is merely an extreme form of greed.

Dark lords will do whatever it takes to accomplish their goals. They don't care whom they harm in the process.

What would lead anyone to believe that Vader would have any qualms about murdering children? He doesn't care about anyone but himself; therefore, he would have no reason to care about children. Sith lords kill out of revenge, hatred, or because they see someone as a threat to their ambitions. If Vader was angry with a child or wanted vengeance, I could certainly imagine him committing murder. The only reason why we didn't see that in the OT is because there weren't any children that interacted with Vader.

Vader allowed an entire planet to be destroyed. Many more people were killed on Alderran than in the Jedi Temple. I'm certain that children died in the explosion. Even in the OT, Vader was involved the deaths of children- even if he didn't personally execute their deaths.

The Jedi are the enemies of the Sith. Vader hates the Jedi and wants to eradicate them. He was order by the Emperor to "show no mercy". Vader would be disobeying orders if he let the younglings live. I can't imagine an evil person would go against his Master's orders, just for the sake of children he doesn't even care about.

The deaths of the younglings are part of the Sith's plan for revenge. It's completely consistent with their nature. In addition to this, Anakin doesn't want the younglings to become any sort of threat to the Empire. Even with rudimentary Jedi skills, Zett Jukassa proved that he was more than a match for several Clones.

 

Killing anyone, regardless of their age, is wrong. That's why if you believe in religion, there's the universal commandment about "Thou Shall Not Kill". The language is different in each religion, but it translates as the same thing. But in the case of the Sith, it was a cleansing of the Jedi taint. Hence why the eu coined the term "Jedi Purge", because it's eradication. Removing everything that ever was about the Jedi Order, so that it could never rise from the ashes like a phoenix, which it does through Luke.

In regards to any possible Sith children that the Jedi might have killed, we do not know for sure if they didn't do it. Sure it would be seen as a dark act, but then it was a dark time for the Jedi. Many Jedi were losing their own balance. There were those who felt that it had to be whatever it takes in order to win the war. A few became that which they had fought against, sadly.

Except it's not about attachment. It's about thinking more of another than yourself. That's what Anakin does. He thinks about Luke this time, when he didn't think about Padme at all, the last time. Only what he could gain out of Palpatine, not what the galaxy could gain from his sacrfice of Padme. With Luke there was a domino effect that came from saving his son compassionately. As it turns out, in choosing to save his son from Palpatine, he would fulfill the prophecy. He would bring balance to the Force by destroying the Sith. And he knew it would cost him his life in the process. Hence it is a selfless act. He thinks of what his son wants from him. He tries to fit that image and suceeds. In the process he is able to do an even greater deed.

 

What does it mean to forgive someone? To forgive someone is to say "I understand".

All you have to do to "forgive" Anakin is to put yourself in his shoes.

Here are some quotes from people that are smarter than me:

"Passion makes the will lord of the reason." -shakespeare

"If we resist our passions it is more from their weakness than from our strength." -La Rochefoucauld

"Passion is universal humanity. Without it religion, history, romance and art would be useless." de Balzac

We all have blood flowing in our veins. Let's not be hypocrites. There are no saints here.

If you have trouble forgiving Anakin, it is because you don't understand his character. Or worse, it could mean that you do not understand the human heart.

The deed is horrific, but the man is not. He is like us, only greater.

I know it is lazy arguing to quote people, but what the heck.

Sorry if you feel this worded harshly.

 

We never did see Vader in the OT as a mass-murderer, and the act of killing children seems to be something that's below him as well....which I think is why I just didn't care for ROTS anymore after Mace died. The evil Darth Vader that was supposed to appear didn't, and instead we got this psychotic guy who I'm not sure even looked much like Anakin.

So I guess my thoughts after seeing the scene aren't really that he was an evil butcher so much as "Huh? Wtf just happened...."

 

This is such a hard question. He did kill younglings. But he also killed the Intergalactic Hitler(Palpatine). Seeing that he lost his mother and true love Padme, and that his emotions were manipulated by Palps, I think I'm OK with his past. He did make the ultimate sacrifice in killing Palps by dying himself. In the end I forgive him for his trespasses. He fulfilled his destiny as the chosen one IMO.

 

If Vader's throwing Palpatine down the reactor shaft was a compassionate and selfless act then how is killing the Younglings any different? In both cases it was a selfish act by Vader. The first time around Vader was willing to sacrifice the lives of the Younglings for the sake of saving his wife and unborn child, and the second time Vader was willing to put himself in danger by killing Palpatine for the sake of saving his son.

The argument can be made that Anakin earned his way into heaven by bringing balance to the force by destroying the Sith but sacrificing himself for the sake of saving Luke isn't nearly enough to earn forgiveness for having spent the past 20+ years indiscriminately killing people.