Did Anakin's slaughter of younglings make it hard for you to 'forgive' him in ROTJ?

QFT...

This IS Star Wars were talking about right?

 

I'm just saying you cannot have one without the other. And if you believe in certain religions, they say that forgiveness for one who repents his/her ways is a good thing. Anyway, Luke wouldn't hide his father had he lived. They would both agree to go together to face the music. Such is the Jedi way.

Anakin was evil, but he was also a good man. The problem is that he was feed all kinds of lies and half truths from Palpatine, who encouraged his bad behavior. And when Palpatine wasn't involved directly, he fell victim to a lack of wisdom in the knowledge that he had. The good inside Anakin never went away and finally showed itself when Luke showed him the way.

 

Either one believes in forgiveness or one doesn't. It one doesn't, Anakin should never be foregiven as his acts were so heinous. If one does, if he's genuinely repentant, he should be foregiven, regardless of the horror of his acts. The younglings slaughter doesn't tip it one way or the other as far as I'm concerned.

 

I still don't understand why the 501st didn't take out the younglings.
Baffled, I am... even after all this time.

 

I completely agree. Lucas was obviously trying to show how far Vader went to pledge himself to the Sith and save Padme. But he failed to realize that simply going to the Temple with the 501st and raiding it was enough. We see him engage Cin Drallig and co, cut off Windu's hand, duel Obiwan, a deleted scene of the murder of Shaak Ti...why do we need to see him go after younglings on top of it? It's terribly redundent. Not mention it would make far more sense that the 501st took out the children. Instead, you see the clones attacking adult Jedi while Vader takes out the children. It's completely backwards. If Lucas absolutely wanted the younglings to be murdered, it should have been Vader walking in the Temple with some clones and Cin Drallig or some other Jedi shows up and Vader's like, Commander, you take the younglings, I'll handle this. The younglings and Vader scene should have never happened.

 

Logically yes, however that image is a far less powerful one than Vader killing the Younglings himself.

 

Does Anakin have to be forgiven? Just roll with who/what he became... be glad he realized it (too late) and did something about it.

My feelings about the character of Anakin are tough in that I'm not sure wanting to save a loved one even begins to warrant the things he did. If I was told that my wife was dying and the only way I could save her is to go out and slaughter hundreds of my friends and co-workers... including children... I couldn't do it nor nor would I think she would want me to do it. I mean come on... yes it's my true love, but killing for her - in great numbers?

That's a far cry from someone who is desperate and robs a bank or something for money for medicine.

Essentially Anakin has to be psychotic - unable to rationalize that what he does to save Padme is outrageously wrong/criminal/insane/etc.

To me, once Anakin heads for the temple... there's nothing redeeming about his character, i.e. no way he can rationalize for the viewer that what he did was even close to acceptable or reasonable.

He becomes a mass murdering/monster.

 

The idea that Vader HAD to be the one who killed the Jedi brats is absurd to me. Why? Were they too tuff for the Clones to handle? Did it make him stronger with the darkside? I'm just waiting for someone from LFL to run along and tell us that the Clones couldn't kill the kids because of their programming or some other rubbish close to that.

Once in the Jedi Temple, Vader should have been shown (fully immersed in the darkside) hunting down the Jedi Knights and Masters, not the younglings...
Then Ben's dialogue with Luke stands up.
As it is, Ben looks like more of a lying fool than Lucas already made him out to be.

Ben: "Luke, I almost forgot. Your dad whacked a bunch of kids in his quest to rid the Galaxy of the Jedi. He even made the Clones fight the real Jedi Knights, while he did the dirty deed. But he was a good friend before that, I promise..."

 

Ok this thread is little to long for me to read through, but here is my vfew on the whole thing.



KILLING THE YOUNGLINGS

I am a little divided when it comes to this.

1. Palpatine is an evil dude and killing the Jedi Order is Generally wrong.

2. Killing younglings is no different than killing lets say Mundi or Unduli. The children were armed and rrained to be soldiers. Yeah I know Windu said they were keepers of the peace, but in that same movie Windu (The Great Keeper of the Peace) cuts the head of one of the most feared Bounty Hunters in the Galaxy. A lightsaber is dangerous no matter how young the Jedi is.

3. Anakin was a selfish idiot who was to weak to forget his own selfish needs. Anakin was never in love with Padme. He was egoistical, possesive and insane. What Anakin did has nothing to do with love, so trying to justify his acts by saying he did it because he loved Padme is a lie. Padme may have loved Anakin, and she finally snapped out of it for a short while on the landing platform, but Anakin never truly loved her back.



FORGIVENESS IN GENERAL

I find it a bit hard to forgive Anakin/Vader for what he did. Slaughtering the Jedi, ordering the deaths of untold millions, standing by dispasionately as an entire planet is annihilated and supporting the most evil and loathsome man in the universe.

 

The Clones could have and at some point throughout the raid likely did kill children, however the image of Darth Vader fighting someone that's even close to his equal doesn't have the same weight to it as seeing the fallen protagonist slaughtering children.

We see Vader kill Jedi Masters. He kills Mace and Cin as far as named Jedi and we know he killed others. I agree we should have seen Vader fight other Jedi Masters, but there's nothing wrong with the choice of showing him killing children as it makes blatantly clear how twisted and evil Vader has become.

 

All in under seven minutes.

 

But we already got the twisted part when Anakin cut off Windu's hand. And we know how evil Vader has become when he duels Obiwan. And since the Obiwan/Anakin duel was already going to happen, the younglings slaughter was redundent. And of course, it leads to people to question if Vader is worthy of redemption, such as the author of this thread. And SSS points out that Obiwan talking up Anakin like that in ANH is questionable. What would have made more sense would have been to put in the murder of Shaak Ti instead of the younglings. I believe, Vader stabs her through the back as she is meditating. Very powerful given the fact that he doesn't even give her a chance to defend herself. Even showing the Cin Drallig duel as real time instead of a hologram would have made more sense than the youngling/Vader scene.

 

Yet some think he's justified against Mace and Obi-Wan. There's also that it's far more despicable to the audience to kill children than it is to backstab a character that is largely disliked* and dueling a man who is able to defend himself against Vader.

Which I think was the point. The audience viewing the films 1 - 6 shouldn't believe Anakin can be redeemed until Luke manages to revive that small bit of Anakin within Vader and cause him to realize the error of his ways.

It's powerful but in no way shows his strength and lacks the effect that you get from him slaughtering children.

I think it should have been in there, though I think it would have been more valuable to have both rather than cut the Youngling scene in exchange for the Cin scene.

 

Vader killing shows how far he is willing to go, to get what he wants. This is a true test for him mentally and emotionally. If he is to be Darth Vader, Lord of the Sith and Apprentice to Darth Sidious, he must kill these children. If he lets the 501st kill them, he is hesitating in his duty. Waiting for the 501st or sending them to do something that he himself must do, it's a sign of weakness. Palpatine will know this and will refuse to help him and thus Padme dies. No, in order for Anakin to prove that he is a Sith Lord, he must kill each and every single child in the Council chambers. Palpatine and Maul would kill the children and reveal in it. So, too, must Lord Vader.

All of them are Jedi. He killed Knights, Masters and Younglings. So I don't know what you're complaining about. First you say Vader isn't much of a badass, now he's too much of one.

Anyway, Ben speaks to Luke about Anakin Skywalker and not Darth Vader. Anakin Skywalker was the good friend. Darth Vader is the one who went bad. Ben is telling Luke how he, as a Jedi Knight, sees this whole turn events twenty years later.

 

I said SHOULD HAVE BEEN for a reason.
And kiddies weren't Jedi yet... having a glowstick in hand doesn't make one a Jedi.
PT Vader will never be a badass in my book.

 

That's something I would have liked straightened out as within the Order Jedi isn't a rank, yet we have Padme saying Anakin isn't a Jedi yet because he's a Padawan learner and Yoda's statement that Luke will only be a Jedi when he faces Vader.

 

Exactamundo.
Good call. I forgot that line.

 

They're all members of the Jedi Order, trained in the Jedi Arts, but they have to pass their trials to become a full fledged member. During the phase when they're Younglings and Padawans, they can still choose to leave the Jedi Order or are more prone to be expelled. Consider it job training. You start at a new job and are paid for the job training, but you're not allowed to fly solo right off the bat, if you've never done this before. Or pledge week at a fraternity, where you aren't a member yet, but you have to undergo the traditions like everyone else before you and after you. In a way, that's what is happening here.

They are part of the Jedi Order. They've been trained in the ways of the Jedi and are armed with a Lightsaber. They are a threat to the Sith, just as we see Luke become twenty years later. Vader must prove himself worthy of being a Sith or this is all for nothing. It's a test of his mettle.

 

A ten year old with a gun is far less dangerous than a twenty year old armed with the same weapon... but yes, they both pose a threat.

 

They are both dangerous when the gun is loaded and the safety is off, because in that instance, they can harm someone or themselves. But in the case of the Younglings, they have the beginning stages of Jedi training. If they live, they will continue their lessons and will one day make a bid at taking out the Sith. So that is why they have to die.

 

Is it bad that that makes me think of Padawans as Jedi Interns?

 

Only if you are thinking of Monica Lewinsky.

 

For comparison Revan was far worse and look whats happened with him, even after ******* t3h up, he/she is still a pimp. XD.

Sinister Edit: "Use asteriks when using inappropriate language."

 

Good one Sinister!
I'd bet she'd make for a good Jedi-Bendu.

 

Well, let me ask this if I didn't already. Is it important to you that you forgive Anakin? We already know that Luke forgives his father for his crimes. But why is it important for you to forgive Anakin?