PT Did Mace Windu really defeat Palpatine?

Hi Mom!

 

Did Mace Windu disarm Palpatine? Yes, he really did.

Did Mace Windu use his light saber to back Palpatine into a corner? True, that.

Did Mace Windu defeat Palpatine? No.

 

I would also add that GL isn't the only guy who made the films. He had co-script writers, editors (who can really shape the meaning of a film), sometimes other directors, special effects guys, etc. all contributing. They may have added things that GL didn't realize was added or he didn't understand. I mean if Kershner, screenwriters Leigh Brackett and Lawrence, and GL all disagreed about the interpretation of a scene in TESB who do you go with? (Answer: you go with the interpretation that makes the best sense based on the film.) Filmmaking is a collaborative process in the end. It doesn't all come down to 1 man.

 

The problem is after all this time people still can't decide on the answer!

 

^ This.

 

It's not difficult, the decision that is.

 

Palpatine wasn't going all out but i don't think he planned the whole thing before hand. I don't think Mace was going all out either he wasnt going for the kill until the end. I still think Mace wins tho in a more environment Sidious would win

 

I think Mace wins if both are going all out completely fair, but Sidious would never go all out completely fair.

 

His comments back up what we saw on film, why should I not take them at face value? Because I like Sidous better??

 

Palpatine may not have planned everything that happened in there, such as getting kicked in the face, but he was a master at adapting and the confrontation ended with what he wanted it to end with: Anakin walking in and seeing Palpatine on the floor at the end of Mace's lightsaber. Regardless of Lucas's DVD commentary, that seemed clear to me.

Also, as noted above, there were instances in the lightsaber fight when it really looked like Palpatine could easily take Mace, but he chose not to... such as the time when the tip of his lightsaber is less than a foot away from Mace's chest and Mace has both arms up in the air to his sides.

 

If Palpatine wanted to kill Mace all by himself, then Windu would be dirtnapping next to the other 3.

 

I think I agree, this is how it looked to me before hearing the commentary. Palpatine foresaw Anakin would come back to his office and sensed his arrival. While he is trying to kill Mace with the lightning at first, he was confident Anakin would intervene when he stopped shooting. I may get flamed for this, but I always thought Palpatine let his saber go out the window. Not Lucas' intent though, obviously.

 

Eloquent and accurate.

 

It may have been GL's intent. He may have purposely told the choreographer to stage it that way. Palpatine is the one who controls the movements earlier in the duel, and then suddenly he starts moving backwards. Palpatine could've moved backwards in any direction if he is retreating, but even though he knows the layout of his office, he is the one who backs towards the window, not Mace, and Palpatine's holding the saber in the hand closest to the window when he loses it, so it's pretty clear it's going out the window if he drops it. That's also the perfect place to be disarmed since the saber flying out the window serves Palpatine's purposes perfectly. Not only is Palpatine not armed when Anakin arrives but it doesn't even appear that there is a saber around with which Palpatine can defend himself. Again, a coincidence -- well that's possible, but it all works to Palpatine's advantage so well that it seems more to me that he's playing Mace for the fool.

 

That's because he was.

"We are not butchers, Sidious, like some past Sith Lords. We are architects of the future." -him's Master.

 

Mace definitely beat Sidious - Sidious knew he could lose so he banked on Anakin to help him if he needed it. Yoda and Sidious seemed even, but that's just because Yoda got hit by a cheap shot on an awkward battlefield. I think if they fought on an open plain Yoda would have emerged victorious.

 

We are not butchers, Sidious, like some past Sith Lords. We are architects of the future." -him's Master.

Nobody said this in my opinion, as cool as a quote that it is


If Palpatine wanted to kill Mace all by himself, then Windu would be dirtnapping next to the other 3.
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where is your evidence for this opinion?

Lucas seems to disagree with you, what happens on screen seems to disagree with you,

even the wookipedia (that every seems to love and quote so much from) disagrees with you

source:

Darth Sidious had been defeated, and was now at Master Windu's mercy, who held his blade to the Sith Lord's throat and declared the Dark Sider under arrest.


it would make so much more sense for Anakin to join Palpatine if he witnessed the bodies of all Jedi killed and Sidious proclaiming to indeed have all the power in the universe to cheat death,

clearly didn't happen, we saw exactly what was on screen

Sidious turned a situation to his advantage.

 

I view it as more Evil Masterminding by Palpy. "Well, gotta get Anakin into the dark side SOMEHOW" Put all his chips on Skywalker. Maybe Mace did legitimately disarm him but Palpy's whole cowering act was just more bait to get Skywalker to turn at that moment. He is his friend after all.

 

I believe the duel was legitimate and that Mace did overpower Palpatine when it came down to lightsabers. However, when he was disarmed and defeated, I think that everything that he says as soon as Anakin walks is a load of crap. All he's doing is swaying Anakin over by making everything that had just happened look like he was the innocent one.

 

Page 151 of the DP novel:

"You have the force, apprentice, and the talent to lead. More, you have the bloodlust of a serial killer, though we need to hold that in reserve unless violence serves some extraordinary purpose. We are not butchers, Sidious, like some past Sith Lords. We are architects of the future."

Others have pointed out that Sidious could have stabbed Mace more than once. Obviously, that would have been dumb for the story so that is why it didn't happen. I don't need any quotes from Lucas, or Wookieepedia for "evidence" when on film Darth Sidious immediately disputed Mace's claim that he had lost.

Master Windu: "The oppression of the Sith will never return! You, my lord, have lost!"
Supreme Chancellor: "No... no... no! YOU WILL DIE!"

He was disarmed but not defenseless; therefore, he was far from defeated... For me and my house, victory belongs to the one still standing. The truth is, Mace was not that man, Sidious was. Heck, even Anakin slumped to his knees.

Victory belonged to Darth Sidious, alone.

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I look at their duel like a UFC match, they fought to a draw in round one, while Sidious was playing around and acting goofy to prolong the confrontation. Clearly, Mace won round two, when he kicked Sid's in the grille, knocked his saber out and put him on his back. ((And I have no bones to pick about that, Mace dominated Sidious on the ledge)) But old wrinkleskin used the ref to distract Windu so he could knock him out in round three.

 

Others have pointed out that Sidious could have stabbed Mace more than once. Obviously, that would have been dumb for the story so that is why it didn't happen. I don't need any quotes from Lucas, or Wookieepedia for "evidence" when on film Darth Sidious immediately disputed Mace's claim that he had lost.

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but you did quote Darth Plagueis' novel. So you do need quotes it seems

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Others have pointed out that Sidious could have stabbed Mace more than once
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as a sword and Martial Art enthusiast I can tell you now... I know the scenes people are talking about with this and it is simply not true, to stab Mace at these points would be suicidal.

 

If you interpret GL's quotes from the ROTS commentary on face value, then Mace won the saber duel portion of their combat. However, GL has more to say about it. When Palpatine, is defending himself with Force lightning GL says: "But this part where he, he (Palpatine) pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later, 'cause this is, it moved the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here, and you can see now, that it's very clear that he's, he, he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers. " This shows that Palpatine could've held off Mace just as he had been doing. Palptine was only pretending that he couldn't maintain the Force lightning as his defense. If Palpatine continued using the Force lightning, then Mace would've been left straining to repel the lightning unable to mount an attack.

GL also says that Anakin is the Chosen One, that only the Chosen One can destroy the Sith, and that destroying the Sith really means killing them off. Since Palpatine is the only Sith left at this point, then logic requires you to conclude that Mace couldn't kill Palpatine b/c that would mean that Anakin wouldn't be able to kill off the last remaining Sith, and only Anakin, the Chosen One, can destroy the Sith. Again, these are GL's own words.

Wookieepedia has at times also said that Palpatine threw the fight. I've read the Wookieepedia discussion pages that show their decision-making process. These exact same never-ending arguments go on there too. I think they just threw up their hands and decided to only mention what you see on screen and not even attempt to include Palpatine's internal motivations. Also, from their discussion pages, it is clear that many at wookieepedia disagree with this decision. (Also, wookieepedia just skips the issue of whether Palpatine really lost the power to defend himself or chose to pretend to lose power, as GL says he did.)

In the end, if you take GL's statements at face value, then you have to conclude the following:

• Palpatine lost the saber duel
• Palpatine pretended to lose his power and could've held off Mace with his Force lightning in a stalement (or perhaps even disarm him with it as he did Yoda).
• Mace is unable to kill Palpatine b/c that would be an act that only the Chosen One can accomplish.

In the end, if you don't take GL's statement at face value, then going from the films you should conclude:

• Palpatine threw the saber duel or Palpatine just happened to lose it at an incredibly coincidental time so that an instant before Anakin enters the room, he'd see a scene in which Palpatine is unarmed and helpless with Mace marching towards Palpatine with his saber pointed at Palpatine's neck in an apparent act of treason, and this is confirms exactly what Palpatine had been suggesting the Jedis true motives are--treason and wanting to take power for themselves.
• Palpatine only pretended to lose his power to use Force lightning, but he was clearly faking it, because once Mace is disarmed he bursts back to life at full strength. Furthermore, (again only going from the films), Palpatine was probably not going all at out when he was using the Force lightning initially, since in Palpatine's duel with Yoda, he disarmed Yoda, a Jedi stronger in the Force than Mace, and if he was able to disarm Yoda, then he should've been able to disarm Mace too since you shouldn't judge Yoda by his size.

I've read though this entire thread, and it seems that virtually no one disagrees on all the above points. People who take GL's words at face value think that Mace won the saber duel, and people who go from what is seen in the film think that Palpatine threw the saber duel or he lost it fair and square but it just happened to occur at an incredibly coincidental time for him. After the saber duel is over, both GL's interpretation and the interpretation you get from the films match exactly: Palptine is faking weakness, he could've held off Mace as long as he needed with his lightning (or even disarmed him), and that in the end, Mace couldn't over power Palpatine's defenses, and so he wouldn't have been able to kill Palpatine and thus perform an act that only the Chosen One can do.

 

If you interpret GL's quotes from the ROTS commentary on face value, then Mace won the saber duel portion of their combat.
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that's what I'm talking about Sidious LOST the duel,but there are some who even refuse to believe this. Coincidences happen all the time: even in real life, isn't it a coincidence that i'm here now just after you quoted me?

- isn't it convenient that Obi-Wan manages to balance himself with his arm while shooting Grievous to death with nothing to support his weight

- isn't it convenient that Dooku manages knock obi-wan out so that Anakin can slaughter him without Obi-Wan being there to stop him?

i can go on and on.

 

Right. Just not from the two that I precluded.

Suicidal for an enthusiast in the real world? I agree.
But not for a saber expert in the GFFA, he doesn't even need to hit a button to extend the blade.