Did we get to know the Jedi?

I remember when I first saw this scene (boring screening crowd doesn't count) people were juiced when the Jedi clashed with the droids. The excitement died down quickly as it resulted in 3po slapstick (which I liked) and comical banter between Annie and Padme ensued. Since there were no scenes depicting any important or profound angle to advance the story, there is much room to humanize and customized the Jedi as an order respectfully of the image formed over the years. THESE ARE THE JEDI. I understand that their venerability must be shown to assist the ultimate outcome, but there is no excuse to not betray them heroically and memorably. It was missed in AOTC but ROTS had a chance to redeem them. The closest that the movie comes to this is in a scene where Lucas Son is THE ONLY Jedi showcased in the Temple raid's defiance.

It is inconceivable that the Jedi presence would be displayed this loosely. If the T.V. show isn't intended to expand on this, there is little reason to create one. STAR WARS is a Jedi driven property and people want to see it from a perspective outside of Obi Wan, Yoda, and Anakin.

 

People siding with the Sith? If that's the case, then it's not because of how the Jedi were portrayed. It's because some people are simply evil.



Yep
/LM

 

i would actually enjoy a live action show about the jedi, anything has to better than the prequels depiction of them

 

There are two main reasons that some people (including me) felt for the jedi when they died:

1.The music during order 66 (anakin's betrayal) That music makes me well up every time!!
2. Aalya Secura. All the boys (and maybe some girls) in the audience felt for her, the only truely hot jedi!! (sorry Shaak Ti fans!)

 

I'm not siding with the Sith. My point is that I think the OT is about why, not so much how, the Jedi fell and for that reason they were portrayed exactly how they came across on screen. It would have been strange if a whole bunch of bad moofoos suddenly got their tails whipped by some clones and one guy, even if that dude was the choosen one.

Plus, I think as a whole the Jedi that most did felt the sorriest for pretty much typified the order as a whole.

Sounds to me like the basis of all this is how folks would have liked to see them portrayed, verse how they had to be portrayed to convey why they were destroyed and wiped out.

Tinkky

 

In all fairness to Coleman he did block the first 2 shots. It's Jango's third shot that hit his hand or his hilt to get the lightsabre out of the way for the body shots...

 

From the time Obi Wan and the boga fall into the pond, and the score starts, then Ki is betrayed, and Plo Koon is shot down and what not, this is very powerful. I could only imagine if the slightest connection to these characters were there. I may have cried. But the scene is powerful for what it represents as a whole. When it gets to the blue girl dying, it goes thumbs down. The over-the-top gratuitous mob hit is unecessary and it's obvious that Lucas is flexing the PG-13 rating trying to insert shock. Makes me roll my eyes. But Yoda gets the dramatics pumping again when he drops to his knees. That is very powerful also.

If we got to know the Jedi on the least bit, the theaters would have been flooded with tears.

 

yea i have to agree, Lucas did fail in his characterzations of the other jedi Knights. I mean the general aduience of sith would not feel as sad as they could have when we see a montage of very important jedi dieing. Ki mundi died first, yet most people dun even know his name. It was more sad that most of them died beofore they ever uttered a word in the triology.

 

All you have to know is that they're good people, if you have to know their characters and personas and what kind of breakfast they eat in order to actually care that they get murdered - then three 2 hour movies aren't nearly enough to satisfy you.

Do you care for people who died in 9/11? I don't know a single name/face/whatever of any of them, but i care because they didn't deserve what they got, as we all do, right? Sure, these are just movies - but it's the same issue, people that don't deserve what they got get a very raw deal after everything they've done in the name of good. If you don't care about that, then the problem doesn't lie with the movie.

The Order 66 scenes, in all 3 of my viewings, got more reactions from the crowd than any other scene. Except for maybe the final Kenobi/Vader scene.

- O_F

 

ya, the jedi were truly underdeveloped

for instance in episode 1, just after anakin is tested bu the council....why not include a council deliberation scene? where the various masters weigh in, about possibly having to train anakin.

in episode 2, focus on jedi who actually survive the execution arena, instead of including boring human jedi in the background who dont even make it to teh final center group.give characters like plo, shaak, aayla and agen short 8, maybe 10 second viniets where we see them force pushing, dodging blaster fire, striking down droids.

there was also room for these minor characters to speak during the council sequences. allow agen, kit and saesee to be there when anakin tells mace palpatine's dirty little secret. show them reacting, and maybe even speaking about how they will have to be careful.


it also would have been nice if earlier in episode 3, we had a tour of the clone wars, that included the same worlds and jedi scene during order66. each could showcase the different environemtns, and how how the jedi are leading different missions. once again, it would allow us to see the jedi in action before their final betrayal.

 

Did anyone notice that quite a few of the minor Jedi fought much better than Anakin, Obi, and Mace? And for some reason they were killed off so fast that it seemed as though they were not even Jedi? Bad job Lucas.

The Jedi should have done much better in battle than they did.

 

I really don't know how you can say that. All of them were sneak attacked by like 5+ well-trained and heavily armed clone troopers and commanders.

And also they definitely did not fight better than Anakin, Obi, or Mace. I definitely need some examples man.

To my point, I feel we got to know the Jedi as much as we were supposed to in order to feel saddened by their deaths. The Jedi were a regal, chivalristic order. If you look at the Jedi Council it strongly resembles Arthur's Knights of the Round Table.

Lastly, I think the reason we don't see more mass-jedi fights, a la AOTC, is because their main objective is to maintain PEACE and ORDER in the galaxy. Just look at what happened when they decided to get involved in the war. BAM! Jedi Genocide.

 

I was okay with the jedi getting shot from behind, being overwhelmed and not prepared for their own troops to turn on them.

I think it was a combination of the Obi-Wan OT "lost golden age" concepts mixed with Darth Maul/Yoda's unprecedented kineticism, etc., and EU ideas that made fans want more. We never needed to know a lot of jedi--but a firm, philosophical representation of their purpose was underplayed. "Anger leads to hate" does not convince me Yoda is wise, though I think he comes across all right in ROTS. Some of the basic problems of AOTC and TPM were in the throwaway lines of jedis, and their interchangeability, that arguably crippled the character dynamics. They were never mysterious or awe-inspiring, as they should have been. And the arena scene was the worst...IF the jedi had to be overwhelmed, we should have seen uber-samurai fighting with unbelievable skill, against absurdly numerous and powerful technological forces...instead, as noted, the extras are weak and frequently horrendous. While Lucas' films are good (I walked out of TPM and AOTC saying "that was good"--much of the bashing, IMHO--is dishonest, and perhaps a product, ironically, of watching the film numerous times!)

A friend and I were discussing--uselessly--how the prequels might have been improved, and we thought if Yoda was a jedi outcast, the wise old man, warning against jedi complacency, or something, it would have been cool. If the jedi WERE afraid of power, and holding anakin back...well, okay, then they're weak, and anakin's turn sort of makes sense...it's just, Yoda could have represented the light side then (he also trains Obi-Wan) and the emperor, because the other jedi are such tools, can seduce anakin.

 

Personally, I also thought the Jedi were given short shrift as an Order. Prior to the release of TPM Lucas made statements about the PT being his opportunity to show the Jedi in "full flower." While it is true that the duels between Jedi and Sith are dramatic, the remainder of the engagements do little to showcase the abilities of the Jedi. They were the heirs to a long and storied heritage, legendary and mythic in the eyes of most common folk.

I would have loved more character development, but also a greater uderstanding of their abilities as Force users, and not just with a mind trick or some fancy lightsaber combat.

 

i agree on the fact that the PT does not make them seem mysterious, and there are numberous ways it could have been accomplished..for instance....


in episode 1, instead of merely showing a speeder flying by the temple (which i have always seen as a pitiful introduction for an edifice that should be revered by the audience), have qui gon, obi wan and anakin marching up the steps of the temple to enter through its main gates. the same gates and steps, anakin later walks through, leading a batallion of clones.

have qui gon telling anakin, and in turn, the audience, about the jedi. how a jedi's life is one of saccrifice, but is rewarding because of its spirituality. show shots of the trio walking through the temple's sacred halls, towards the council chambers, while qui gon speaks more about how the jedi listen to the will of the force, uphold the principles of the republic etc etc.


allow more council memebers to talk about anakin, in a scene that would follow the one where he is tested by the masters.

basically just more jedi history, principles, philosphy and screen time in general.

 

have qui gon, obi wan and anakin marching up the steps of the temple to enter through its main gates. the same gates and steps, anakin later walks through, leading a batallion of clones.


That would have been good, and would have made an emotional connection.

 

TPM presents the idea that we will be introduced to a hosts of Jedi. All species, personalities, and characteristics. When we get down to it, it's a busload of fanfilm extras that are poured onto the set in an impersonal sequence that it far from epic.

The Jedi did deserve more.

Yeah, I agree. It would have worked better if instead of hauling in extras all the time, they'd focused on a few Jedi so the audience could get to know them. For example, Aayla's death was incredibly sad to me, but it was really only because of the senselessness and stupidity of her having to die by getting shot in the back. If she'd gotten even a few lines of dialogue to indicate what kind of a person she was, it could have been far more effective.

I also really liked Qui-Gon. He was one of the only Jedi I really respected, and I'm sorry he couldn't have had more presence in the PT. Lucas, you drove me to the dark side by making your Jedi so sucky!

 

i know what you mean about aayla!


allow the jedi to have a line or two.

showcase four or five jedi during the geonosis battle arena, so we get to see each one in action.

allow more council members to weigh in during meetings, ESPECAILLY the ones in episode 3, where matters were important enough to have several jedi speak.

show a montage earlier in the film, showing where ki adi mundi, plo koon, stass allie and aayla secura are. have the montage nearly the same length, but this time, show the jedi leading their troops and battling, so we see them in action one last time.

basically, just extend some of the scenes, and allow for minor jedi to speak, if only a line. just one line is all we need to at least by intrigued, and later pity.


and i agree order 66 was especailly emotional only because i knew the various missions the various jedi had been on. the eu in this instance helped.

 

Great points and ideas, Padmeluva and Mara.

Expressed regards to how the Jedi are handled have been conveyed thoughtfully and is NOTHING like wondering what type of Breakfast they eat as one poster stated to degrade these valid points. There are many oppurtunities and spaces within this entire trilogy to give the Jedi a more important and personalized presense. There are many films that have a team of characters in a story that is specific to a single or few individuals. These films have no problem of developing characteristics for assisting characters. I think the prequels could have benifited from the aspect by making the assisting Jedi characters memorable. Here is an example of films that have a story based on a singular or few individuals yet personalizes it's assisting background characters: Blade, X-MEN, The League, The Matrix, Underworld, Lord of the Rings, American Pie, etc. We should know something about Mundi, we should be familiar with a certain method or style of Fisto's techniques, we should be able to discern the way Tinn speaks, or the funny way Aayla's attitude may be. There are many times in the trilogy when absolutely NOTHING important is going on and a little Jedi polishing would have been nice.

TPM shows a bunch of colorful characters and aliens as Jedi on the council. I couldn't wait to see Yarael Poof in action or to see how that Fury guy fought and talked. What I saw was a scattered group of humans who were seemingly without any saber skills lumbering around in the arena.

 

I think the Clone Wars animated series was helpful in helping us get to know several of the Jedi... and I think it did the most good for Shaak-Ti. She really has no presence in ROTS, so that was a waste of what was established in Clone Wars. It still would have been nice to see who the Jedi were on screen... not just Mace, Yoda, and Ki-Adi Mundi. Dialogue would have helped immensely during the Order 66 scenes.

 

thanks neo-baggins


and i know what you mean jedi_apprentice


shaak ti kicked so much butt in clone wars, i was really looking forward to seeing her in ROTS...she didnt make it though.

 

neo-baggins, Lucas is one of the few directors these days who does not try and put stuff in merely for shock value.

 

I think what came through it PT was that the jedi were dedicated society of people. I don't think they needed any more glory to their existence. I thought the jedi were believeable as munk like society, who had given their lives for bettering others.

It would have been more sad if you'd known more of the characters, but I guess GL felt it would have taken too much time. I wouldn't have minded if the movie was three hours, but...
then again did we really need to know more than these were good guys, TRULY good guys?

 

I compare it to say the rebels of the OT. I didn't realy know any of the rebels better, but I felt for them and their plight. I felt more emotion for the Jedi getting offed in ROTS especially in order 66 moreso than any nameless rebel in the ot. BUt you really can't take the focus of the main characters in Star Wars. There are alot of main characters or a group of them in Star Wars, that the story is revolved around adding more to the preipheral jedi would have harmed the films.

 

My entire point was that you're not supposed to know them to care about them, the breakfast was just an exaggeration of what people expected from the Jedi. We never knew a single citizen from Alderaan before Star Wars, except Leia, does that have any effect on the tragedy and sympathy when Tarkin pulls the plug?

No. We've had more Ki-Adi-Mundi than we have of Biggs, yet the deaths of both are equally tragic; Ki-Adi's moreso because he's betrayed. But nonetheless, we don't know a character but are saddened when this happens to them. Because as humans, we care when people who don't deserve to die; die.

With the prequels, we've got people siding with the Sith because "George never shows a Aalya/Kit Fisto scene". That's just ridiculous, we see more of the Jedi then we ever did of the Rebellion in the OT; yet nobody's sympathizing and agreeing with the Empire. Why is that? You talk of scenes that were pointless and could've/should've had some Jedi action, for somebody i know who thinks the main characters lack progression; wouldn't you rather have had a extra Anakin/Padme scene? Why do you want "Jedi polishing"?

Aalya, Kit, Ki-Adi, Stass Alie, Plo and whoever died were good people - good people that got stabbed in the back. If that's not enough for someone to "care" then i don't see how the fault lies with the movies. If you're supposed to "know" the characters before actually caring enough for them to die, then why only hold it against the prequels?

Who is Biggs? Who's Porkins? Who died in the battle of Hoth? Who died in the Battle of Endor? Who was that Ewok? I could do the same for the X-men and Lord of the Rings and the Matrix etc etc.

There's a difference between thinking the Jedi in general, their teachings; their mantras; their ways; their codes; their behaviour; wasn't shown enough. I can see your point in that case, the podrace could've been 3 minutes shorter and we could've seen more of the Sith, the underwater chase in Otoh Gunga could've been erased and we could've seen more of the Jedi Council etc etc.

But my point is that you shouldn't need that in order to actually care for them, you need that to know them. And, as i've said, in that case; this isn't a prequel problem. It's a problem nearly every "epic" movie has.

- O_F