ST Diversity in the Sequel Trilogy (see warning on page 11)

I don’t get how it’s a debate. If people don’t want to read romanticized misogyny as a literary classic in the modern world, that’s a reflection of the times. I have read 1984, and while I’m glad I read it so I understand political references to it, and I want my daughter to read it for the political propaganda that it is, I hate that book. It’s a miserable experience. Another political book with rapey romance is The Fountainhead by Ayn Rand. These books have more to say than just the romanticized misogyny though. Perhaps that aspect of it informs the sickness of the political stories themselves. The protagonist in The Fountainhead is clearly Ayn Rand’s ideal man. That her ideal man is a rapist and loved for it is really reflective of the politics espoused through him lol. These works are interesting though, not titillating imo. Wuthering Heights, otoh, exists just for the toxic romance, which is there to be titillating. If that’s not someone’s thing, there’s really no loss imo to skipping that book.

There’s a YA series my daughter and all her friends are obsessed with right now - Keeper of the Lost Cities. I gather that it’s about a young girl in the modern world that discovers she an immortal, magical elf and gets whisked away to elf school. Or something, I haven’t read it. There is a love triangle involving, as far as I can gather from the kids, a wonderful nice boy that adores her, and a Malfoy type that may or may not be brainwashed (sound familiar? Everything is the same these days). Anyway, my daughter and her friends don’t need the internet to engage in shipper wars. They’re divided down the middle. Some hate even the idea of the villain love interest, and some have eyes for nothing else. They sound a lot like we do here in person. The ones that love the Finn pairing (which, unlike SW, actually happens and is a full fledged romance), cite their affection and adoration for each other. Just given the state of modern “shipping” in fiction, these kids know what appeals to them up front.

There’s nothing unique about Reylo, beyond how imo OTT disgusting it. It’s definitely to me the absolute worst of these types of romances, including classic toxicity like Wuthering heights. If someone doesn’t want to see or read the (almost always) female character flushing integrity and values down the toilet for the sake of a whiny, abusive, narcissistic male love interest, they’re literally missing nothing because no doubt they’ve seen it before and know what lies there.

 

(I wrote this a while ago, so this looks so weird in light of recent info.) Browsing through Black Star Wars Twitter (i.e. folk I follow), and the whiteboard for the Expanded Universe's "Project Luminous" got a lot of folk meming and talking about how the subject of diversity and representation was tackled (or not) in the Sequel Trilogy. Particularly if was or wasn't inherent in their franchise goals (I think we can say it weren't), as opposed to something listed lower than other single-word desires on a wish list like for the external media series.

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Force Toast Podcast twitter account made of point of highlighting that Rae Carson (author of TROS novelization) "[...]loved writing Finn. She thinks Finn is a Hufflepuff. Good, loyal, ernest and a joy to write."

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More than a few Black Star Wars fans on Twitter felt that Carson's description of Finn is indicative of white and non-Black writers disinterest in rendering him as a complex character (even) when given every opportunity, the difference lying in how they talk about other characters equally as underwritten or poorly realized. It's definitely in the same neighborhood of Jason Fry and Rian Johnson rendering Finn almost as inert as a background rebel extra. The user (above) in particular alludes to Octavia Butler's insistence that authoring Black characters in stories is not a problem if they're not treated as an obstacle to escapism in fantasy, a repetition that appears repeatedly with each generation of Star Wars audiences, writers, and fanbases that come down the line.

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And that's the rub of it, ultimately. Simple as the idea sounds, it's an initiative that can see itself undermined by the present creative and executive group, because it's something that comes with the caveat that it's only allowed on their terms or terms acceptable to industry norms or behavior. How long would it be allowed to persist? Indefinitely or momentarily? The first is ideal, the latter is performative.

Star Wars twitter is going full prequel and George Lucas standom at the moment, which is kind've funny and also kind've surreal (given their reputations). I find really can't throw myself in the lot saying, "I wish they had used Lucas's story treatment instead". There's no room of Black actors in that story where both the leads are related to the very white OT heroes, but given how more and more naked they've become with their anti-Blackness, perhaps that's for the best. I'm so done with the supporting/minor Black character gig in a Star Wars story. It stopped being 'enough' with Gin Clarke and Samuel L. Jackson twentysome years ago, but it's clearly LucasFilm's Pentecost.

From the Finn thread:

In the last five years, white female Star Wars fans, be they pro or anti-Finn, have constructed this toothless and malicious persona of Finn (within fandom) that makes him pliable around their favorite characters, but allows them to maintain emotional distance and responsibility when engaging with Black Star Wars fans about him. And it's there, within the microcosm of talking about Finn, do you realize whose voices are being treated as significant and who is being ignored. It's what makes Carson's otherwise innocuous comment bothersome (especially when one considers the persona fandom has constructed around Hufflepuff in Harry Potter with the House personality nonsense), or as problematic as someone insistent that Finn is a coward for both defecting from the First Order and not wanting to sacrifice himself for Leia's Resistance.

It's likely what makes their vehemence toward John Boyega, a living person whose persona they cannot control or manipulate (though not for a lack of trying), so predatory, and why a breakdown in discourse occurs whenever their "cinnamon roll, baby" or "violent, dangerous" version of Finn is challenged by Black fans (specifically, Black women) who haven't exactly been given basic room to talk about this character so much as defend him (and his actor) at every turn, even when being critical of his shortcomings.

 

What the hell is “Black Star Wars”? Why the need to split up the fandom on Twitter? Seems like the opposite of diversity. Seems like a good way to not have an open view of everyone going on.

 

Black fans of Star Wars. People who cared about Finn, wanted him to be legendary like previous protagonists, and have been voicing grievances about him for years, only to be continuously drowned out by the majority white fandom that kept saying he was fine until we were left with a pointless, tropey husk of a man that Lucasfilm takes a dump on at every possible opportunity.

The separation exists because unfortunately, there's too many white fans that don't care at all, and even the ones that do may not have the full perspective to see why cutting out the tropes early on was too important to ignore.

 

And you know what? I appreciate that. You (among many others) have been speaking up about diversity on this forum since long before I got here, and it was one of the main reasons I wanted to stay around and have discussions here that I couldn't have anywhere else.

In the short time I've been posting here, you guys have really helped me keep my spirits up about the state of SW (even when I'm in a more...abrasive mood). So I want to thank you all that were here holding down the fort for all these years and being a welcoming group of people I've enjoyed talking to.

 

I don't see how creating a separate group is going to help? If you wan't your "issues" with the trilogy to be heard, you probably shouldn't confine them to "Black Star Wars". None of this makes much sense to me though lol, I just get on Twitter and look for any opinions on Star Wars. Its interesting to hear all different perspectives. Its one of the reasons I get on this site. I don't agree with about 90% of the things that get said, but I enjoy the other perspective. If I kept myself sheltered in a box of only the things I agreed with, then my perception would be out of whack.

 

This assumes that people are confining themselves to only one section of the fandom and never participates in any discussion or anything outside of it, which, as can be seen in this thread and in other threads, is plainly not the case. It could also be that they prefer to discuss these things within that section of the fandom because they know it'll be taken serious and they are able to have an honest discussion and share their grievances without being belittled or dismissed.

I left the Steven Universe Reddit fandom because whenever I tried to discuss the Diamonds Debacle, I was constantly met with people that had no interest in an actual discussion or fair-reading of my arguments. And those were the mild responses I got.

Also, it feels disrespectful of you to put issues in quotes, sort of like you're insinuating that people might not have legitimate issues with the trilogy.

Anyway, I have no doubt that black fans are better able to explain this than me so I should probably leave it to them to do so, lest I end up misrepresenting them and their reasons.

 

@FromDromundKaasWithLove Nah, you pretty much nailed it, that's exactly what I was gonna say.

@Darth Buzz It's not about being in an echo chamber, it's just that there are only a handful of corners on the internet where this discussion can be had without being shut down or outright ignored.

For example, the Star Wars subreddit. Most of the time, voicing complaints about the sequels at all will get you downvoted or your posts otherwise buried by fan art of Darth Vader. This was especially rampant after TLJ, which was unfortunately also the point where fans pretty much stopped caring about Finn and Reylo had begun overtaking the entire fandom.

Ever since 2017, there's been almost total apathy involving Finn as a character, and the fandom itself had fractured significantly over a variety of topics that Finn ultimately got buried under.

You could only really discuss Finn on rare occasions that people remembered he was a character and he'd have a trending post, but even there, you'd maybe get a couple of upvotes while most of the comments tell you he's fine and his TLJ arc put him in the place he was meant to be.

Fans of Finn got alienated on two fronts: Not being fans of TLJ, and the overall apathy towards the character (and by extension, black fans who cared about him for reasons of representation).

I'm sure there are similar stories that female fans of TFA Rey experienced when voicing post-TLJ complaints in their fandom spaces. These divisions exist because we got pushed out of larger spaces, not because we actively sought to isolate ourselves in echo chambers.

 

I wish they would hurry up and move to Post-ST stories for these characters. I'm tired of seeing Finn confined to this ST limbo where he can't be allowed to flourish for fear of inconsistency with the ST narrative. Hopefully they can hire some diverse writers that take him seriously and give him solo stories that make him a more compelling character. Do the same for Rose for that matter.

 

I dont think they are going to use these characters, at all, at least not for the time being.

 

They have books coming out later this year. They're just unfortunately set during and before the events of the ST.

 

I know, but I think Disney is going to start way back like they were describing for *The High Republic*, and move forward from there.

I think maybe their plans have changed given the reception of the last film. I have heard Rian Johnsons trilogy is still happening but I've also been told it isn't happening, and who knows when or where that was going to take place. I also heard they are ditching the trilogy format. I think their plan is to start somewhere with main story episodes and have other media--tv shows and off films--coincide with something of a much larger scope.

It will be interesting to see who they choose to kick that off with.

Someone did point out(taking their word for it) that Disney, in their story group for that High Republic thing, had bulletin boards with points like *diversity*. That leaves a bad taste in my mouth, because it can mean they are going to push agenda, potentially, like that recent Marvel comic.

 

Everyone agrees that's diversity done wrong. So if they do that, Star Wars will take a hit even bigger than the ST caused.

 

They all have to shelter-in-place for the time being.

 

You are going to want to avoid the stuff written by Daniel Jose Older then.

 

Well I think to a degree that occurs in all big corporate media, including the sequel trilogy.

 

Some excerpts from a fairly informative article about the increase of Black and Brown women in the publishing industry writing fantasy and science fiction stories, largely focused on Victoria Mahoney, the second unit director for TROS. Once again, Octavia Butler is referenced as catalyst for a lot of Black and Brown creatives pursing science fiction and fantasy where they otherwise wouldn't have.

The Empire Strikes Black | ZORA

 

I don't know if anyone here watches The Witcher on Netflix. But I started watching then made my way to some message boards. Boy was I in for a (non) surprise. It seemsa lot of people have a problem with the increased diversity in the show. A lot of the attitudes seem to align with those of some of those in the Star Wars fandom. Mainly that if minorities ( particularly poc) get roles in the show then it's some sjw agenda at play and if they must watch them it's mostly fine as long as they aren't important. There's this character in the show that's created for the show and he's black. Of course he gets the same stuff Finn gets by a certain section of the fandom-overstating any perceived negative qualities and sometimes misrepresenting who he is in order to criticize his mere existence.
Do people ever get tired of this kind of stuff because it's ridiculous?

 

The ST featured black, Latino and Asian actors in major roles. My biggest criticism of them was the way they gave in to the KMT haters for TROS.
Rogue One had a wonderfully diverse cast.
I think the problem with Finn isn't his skin colour but how he was written. And frankly Poe's survival, likeable though the character is, meant that he stole screentime Finn could have had, especially in TROS.

 

You probably would say that if you were a white dude... Just reverse it and put yourself in the shoes of those that believe they are not adequately represented. It seems to me that both Finn and Rose got crappy treatment as characters in the ST... and if that's your only representation in your favourite franchise (and feel that's reflective of society as a whole), then I can totally understand why people get angry.

 

There's little point rolling your eyes... I wasn't critising you directly, as I don't know your ethnic background. But white guys stating that 'there's nothing to see here' is not really the right way to address it (IMHO).