ST Diversity in the Sequel Trilogy (see warning on page 11)

I put "humor alert" to my post. That said, Finn was not Rey's love interest. Daisy wouldn't describe their TFA relationship as "brother and sister" and I'm sure that she had a better input about ST including going forward than other actors, at least when it comes to JJ input. he talked to her a lot.

However, Finn's character did come off as pining for Rey who didn't requite (maybe actors having a different take on their relationship played their characters in contradictory manner) so giving him a girlfriend was a sound decision to remove that perception from his character. Unfortunately, execution was clunky and backlash assured that the romance would be dropped. And the character reverted to appearing like he still had an obsessive unrequited crush on Rey. It's irrelevant whether Rey loved Kylo or Finn's best friend Poe (I'd say this would be much worse). What matters is that he had a chance to not be seen as Rey's love sick puppy thanks to TLJ development but that was squashed. Rian had the right idea but execution stood in the way.

 

we did get to see Kylo shirtless

 

Yeah no...

 

I initially thought Finn and Rose would be officially together in TROS (boy, was I wrong) and TROS showed Disney and LFL are not ready to show an on-screen same sex couple kiss for more than 2 seconds. As for Finn and Rey, I thought it was still a possibility after watching TFA depending on how it goes in TLJ and let's just say their relationship barely evolved (and whether Finn no longer only thinking about leaving with Rey is an evolution can be debatable) while Rian did most of the heavy lifting on Rey and Kylo's relationship, especially considering where they ended up in TFA.

 

And by “female audience engagement,” I mean women who have been interested in Star Wars, not crap like the paperbacks on this shelf.

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You think their mutually exculsive?

Why are you assuming that men who read books like that, like woman who read books like that, can't also enjoy Star Wars?

Finn/Poe did'nt happen becuase Disney/LFL had an issue with the concept though, it did'nt happen becuase they did'nt intend those two characters to be gay and are'nt obiligated to force them together just becuase a subset of fans ship them really, really hard.

Better news - TLJ exists as is and I like Finn's storyline in it far better then his storyline in TFA (which, incidently, I also found to be fairly ambitious - certianly much more ambitious then just having him sit around as Rey or Poe's side for the whole film as other peaple have suggested)

Lol, Rey never says or even gives any indication that she's attracted to Kylo in TLJ; as far as we know she showed compassion to him becuase she felt bad for him, not becuase she's in love with him. Such information is stright-up not in the film.

If she was in love with him, why did she seem so quick to abandon going to get him if only Luke joined her? Why does she never say it? Or think it during her POV scenes in the novelization? (it would be pretty hard to avoid that). And when and how did she fall in love with him? And for what reason?

I dunno, I thought Rey had a pretty solid spine in TLJ, and if I was a woman I'd probobly find her as engaging as I did as a man - which is to say very.

 

Disney was never prepared to convey a same sex romance of any kind in the Star Wars movies. Not really. And judging how Lucasfilm had demoted John Boyega's role in the trilogy and in the end, pushed Rey and Kylo Ren as the leads, it's also apparent to me that the studio was never going to allow a major interracial romance - especially between a black man and a white woman - let alone a same sex romance.

 

Yeah, sure. That's why two women frenched each other in plain sight in TROS, right?

Look, I know you think they demoted him. But from my perspective they second to films promoted him and his character is far better off - and much more engaging - becuase of that. I also doubt they had an issue with interacial romance (why would they? This is 2020, not 1970 - no sane or reasonable person has an issue with such things anymore), becuase if they did they would'nt have let Johnson have Rose kiss Finn in TLJ and would'nt have greenlit a script were Poe and Rey get together and then only not made that movie becuase of a completely unforseen tragedy.

Maybe the woman making that commentary did'nt feel as if it was female centric before and do now? Different woman feel differently about different things, and it's equally possible for one to find Rey engaging rather then Leia or Padme. Everyone has different tastes.

I don't need to you to prove your viewpoints to me, but if someone expects me to believe something they need to provide evidence. You guys can rant and rave about Reylo being real all you want, but unless I get evidence I'm not going to put any stock in that opinion.

And it goes beyond her not saying it; we see her POV in the novels - her inner freaking thoughts - and as far as I can recall (someone can correct me if I'm wrong) she never brings up loving him. Including in the moment right after he died. Why should I believe Rey loved Kylo when she not only does'nt say it, but does'nt even think it, even in moments were it would be impossible for her to not acknowledge her feelings? Heck, if Reylo was so allegedly importent to the films, why did the filmakers never chose to bring it up and confirm it was a thing?

Well, your entitled to think she has not spine and was putting up with mistreatment for no reason, but I'm also entitled to think she does have a spine and see her as actions as being motivated by pretty solid - at least from her POV - reasoning.

That's the glory of having an opinion. We can both be at opposite ends of the spectrum, feel completly differently about the subject and still both be 100 percent right.

 

Or maybe the woman who did'nt see it as female-centric before now just did'nt enjoy the other two trilogies and/or did'nt relate to Leia and Padme the way they do to Rey?

Just becuase you think something is a bad stereotype does'nt mean that A) the peaple making the films saw things the same way and B) other woman share the same opinion of what is a bad stereotype as you do.

Well, speaking for myself why should I believe it's a thing if I don't see the evidence to support it being a thing?

 

When did I give any indication that's what I want you to do?

Nobody wants you to "submit" or be silent, but at the same time those of use who disagree with you should'nt be silent either, as either of those two actions will lead to this thread just becoming an echochamber - and I'm sure neither of use want that.

Well, sometimes I feel like you guys could stand to be reminded that not everyone shares your opinions and the fandom does'nt consist of two opposing veiwpoints; I'm definantly not being a contrarian, since lest you forget I've agreed with you plenty of times in the past in other threads.

That, and I kinda hope that if I point out that I disagree I'll get intellegent conversation from the peaple I disagree with, rather then just get shouted down as if I just did something wrong. We don't have to change each others opinions, but I think we'd all get much futher discussing our differing viewpoints rather then just rooting our feet in the ground, crossing our arms and refusing to see the reasoning and logic behind any other viewpoint other then our own.

It might help, actually. But as it is I'm just going to assume your stating your opinion 100 percent of the time since you've already made it clear you don't care to do that.

 

No offense - and I'm sure this is'nt inentional - but becuase a some of you guys seem to state your opinions as facts, rather then opinions, does actually make it sorta look like some of you assume everyone agrees with you.

Nobody wants you to change your viewpoints, but if you'd like I (and perhaps others if they feel up to it?) could explain why we don't see bad stereotypes where you do.

Who cares if the couple is two white peaple, a white person and a black person, a white person and an Asian, an Asian and a black person or whatever else under the sun. This is 2020, interacial couples hav'nt been taboo for a long time and no reasonable person goes to watch a movie and says "ewwww. That white girl kissed a black man! Yuck!" (they either go "awww, how romantic." or they don't think anything of it at all).

I doubt the races of Finn, Rey, Rose, Poe and Kylo even factored into the thoughts of Abrams, Johnson and Trevarrow when they were thinking about kisses and hypothetical romances.

 

And Boyega took those peaple to task and shut them down.

If peaple like that stop liking Star Wars becuase it has POC and woman in it, then I don't care; in fact, I hope they just call it quits and leave the fandom. I won't shed any tears.

I live in New Hampshire in a "city" surrounded by crappy little towns filled with no small amount of ingorent hicks. I'm no stranger to racists and bigots; heck, just a couple of years ago their was someone pretty regularly putting up white nationalist flyers and anouther guy driving around with a Confederate flag flying from his pickup truck.

I don't pay attention to peaple like that. I don't care what they think and I care even less about the peaple who do. My time and energy is too precious, and my life to short, to waste on bigoted, ingorent idiots like that.

Well, for starters the idea is that it's a sexist sterotype, correct? Well, as I've said before the movie gives me no reason to think Rey would'nt act the same way towards Kylo if she was also a guy, so I can't see it as sexist towards woman if I think she would do the same thing if she was a guy.
Furthermore (and just off the top of my head).

• I don't see a woman showing compassion to a man who was cruel to her as sterotypical - in my experience that's not a simply not a sterotype or, when it comes to ficitional characters, not even really a negative trait (I've known peaple, both men and woman, in real life who are capable of showing empathy towards peaple who were pretty awful towards them).
• The point was made in the past that Rey was trying to "fix" Kylo, but if that was the case she would'nt be so eager to abandon her mission before even leaving on it if only Luke joined her. The way the movie presents things she seems to be motivated primarly by nessesity and (what she thinks is) strategy, not her sympathy towards him, and she does'nt even think it's a case of "fixing" anything, just going to him and having him turn on his own (becuase that's what she saw in her "vision").
• Finally, Kylo is pretty awful to Rey (super awful in fact) but she does'nt just lay their and take it. She tries to murder him in cold blood when she first sees him in TLJ and later on in the movie, after she relizies he won't turn, she decides to attack him. She's not a passive character and, when push comes to shove, she gives as good as she gets, which to me is a pretty positive dipicition of a character (gender nonewithstanding).
• Plenty of woman don't have an issue with Rey. Now I'm not arguing that all woman need to agree that something is sexist to make it sexist, but I'm not about to discount their opinions - if peaple want to look up to the character and enjoy her dipicition, then who am I to tell them there's something wrong with that.

Well, I don't care about what unreasonable peaple think, and I see no racial bias, intentional or not, in either TLJ or any of the ST films.

Well, jokes on whoever made that joke (is that a joke? Are you sure? Becuase it's not even funny), becuase I know a lot of woman who would be perfectly willing to be in an on-screen realtionship with Denzel.

That seems a little conspiracy theory-ish to me. Why does it have to be "antiquated biases" that led to that, as opposed to just Johnson thinking Kylo/Rey and Finn/Rose's interactions were more interesting then the alternative? After all, TFA was the movie that seperated Rey and Finn and set Rey and Kylo up as being set on a collision course with each other. He was just following through with that.

We already had female and black leads in the MCU well before Captain Marvel came out. I don't really see why it matters if they were the sole main characters or if they were co-leads in other films - I mean, speaking for myself I much perfer the Wasp and Gamora as part of an ensamble then I do Captain Marvel as a sole lead (IMO I'd much perfer a good superhero movie then a superhero movie with a black or female lead) and I think Black Widow was a horrible choice to give a solo film to (and that has nothing to do with ScarJo's gender, just her acting, which I think is terrible).

Not only that, but this point only seems to hold water if you limit yourself to the MCU; there are plenty of sucessful movies out their with black and female leads in this world, and have been for a long time.

Finn was still a main character in TLJ. Just becuase you did'nt like his storyline did'nt mean he got "kicked out" and "replaced" by someone (let alone Luke, whose just a supporting character, or Kylo, who can't replace him becuase they were both already main characters).

 

We had Hancock, Spawn, Steel, Catwoman, Elektra, Supergirl, (Google says Tank Girl as well) The Meteor Man and Blankman before that. Though I think Supergirl, Steel and Spawn are the only ones that were maybe direct comic characters (though Google says Tank Girl is one, but I don't know how close of a adaption that is), as far as I know (Wonder Woman came out before Captain Marvel as well), and I wouldn't call Spawn (maybe not even Elektra, though maybe even Catwoman and Tank Girl, which TG is a movie I don't think I've ever seen) are superhero fictional characters.