A/V Episode VIII - THE LAST JEDI - Official Movie Discussion Thread

Should have hired Hondo.

 

I defiantly it will be multiple in-between stores, just dealing with the post ROTJ pre TFA timeline.

And I think MAN s gonna be the stepping stone for it because I think MAN is the foundation for Post ROTJ stories that will expand out to something...what that something is IDK.

They live in a weird world anyway...and if anything one could argue Sidious was the final straw and the galaxy was like "Nope, not this again"

 

So I've been rewatching TLJ, and I'm at the part where they've killed Snoke and his guards. Kylo/Ben tells Rey to let the past die...Snoke, Skywalker, the Sith, the Rebels. That's all well and good, except the next thing out of his mouth is him asking Rey to join him and rule the galaxy by his side. Well, what is that if not the Sith way?

And the same is true of Luke. For all his talk about how the Jedi must end, it seems like his critique is that the Jedi have abused the Force for their own purposes. So what's the solution? Don't train any more Jedi at all? I guess that's possible, except there's always going to be Force-sensitive people in the galaxy who will develop their abilities regardless of whether Charles Xavier Luke Skywalker trains them or not...so I don't see how this solves anything. So then the thing to do is to just train Jedi differently, right? Will it matter at all whether these new Jedi call themselves "Jedi"?

Is this what they mean when they say this film is subversive? Because if so, I'm not seeing it. Despite the tagline of "letting the past die" it seems like all the changes are just cosmetic, and they're just replacing it with the same thing.

 

By the time Kylo says his "let the past die" spiel, Rey has already roundly rejected that thinking, taken the Jedi texts and run off to do Jedi stuff. And Luke has been told by Yoda himself "let the past die, the solution is not" and literally thumped on the head for it.

The movie isn't about letting the past die. It's about learning from failure, and teaching the next generation not just the lessons you learned from your failures, but the failures themselves. And further, to understand that they will fail and that they will learn from their failures.

I thought the lesson of the film was ultimately, to look at the complete picture of the past not just some sanitized mythology.

IG: @jedisufism

 

I guess it just strikes me as silly that Kylo and Luke were espousing this "let the past die" ethos but neither has thought through what they really mean by it.

 

To not train Jedi would mean to not put people on that path to power. Being sensitive to the Force does not grant automatic power, it has to be honed and developed, or else it is gradually lost. Likely someone can still do a lot of damage with rudimentary Force powers, look at the Knights of Ren. But nothing on the level of a fully trained Jedi Knight or Sith Lord.

 

Luke's stuck in an existential funk. As is Kylo, to be honest; he's just had his whole "be the new Vader" thing shattered by Snoke, so he's trying to form a new philosophy that's mostly just lashing out at those who've hurt him -- kill the past. It doesn't work out for him, but it's Luke who figures that out first and rejects it.

 

It's kind of the point. Neither of them is thinking clear at all. For different reasons.

And I think, in light of TROS, we have to credit some of that to Palpatine's influence.

Luke, for instance, isn't thinking through the consequences of letting a dark Jedi run around with an army, just as Mace Windu wasn't exactly thinking though the implications of the Jedi Council overthrowing the democratically elected leader of the Republic. Also, arguably, having his thinking clouded by the influence of Palpatine.

IG: @jedisufism

 

You know after rewatching th eluke scene and his TLJ scenes. His TLJ scene still trumps his overhyped Mandalorian scenes. And the cgi is bad. recast or just use animation. TLJ is still the best of the trilogy and has best character momment from Luke, Rey, Kylo, Poe, and Supreme leader Snoke. The two other movies are quite good. But TLJ is a teastment of how good a star wars movie can be and will be rearded as the one of the best hits of the saga moving forward.

 

But I mean, look at how the Jedi and Sith got started in the first place. A bunch of Force-sensitive people got together and began training, meditating, teaching others...and eventually they split into a light side and dark side camp. Well that's the backstory from Legends, but if Disney canon comes up with something I imagine it would probably have a similar gist. Also we don't even have to look beyond this film, because at the end of TLJ we see that broom boy is Force-sensitive. Sooner or later, he and others like him will develop their powers, and sooner or later the Jedi/Sith dichotomy will re-establish itself.

 

Sure, eventually. But it would probably take decades if not centuries or millennia before the that level of mastery in the Force could be achieved. Small displays of power, like the boy’s telekinesis in Canto Bight, are just that, and even that level of power would fade with time and without training.

So if Luke had decided to truly end the Jedi Order, he probably would have bought the galaxy a good amount of time without conflict instigated by people who are strong in the Force. Of course, we know the galaxy doesn’t need Jedi or Sith to become engulfed in wars. And Luke rightly learns that despite their failure to escape the Sith trap, and despite his own failure to prevent Ben’s fall, the Jedi are still essential for maintaining peace in the galaxy and an enduring civilization.

And that’s a win for the galaxy, even if the specter of the dark side can never be fully eliminated. The Jedi did exist for thousands of years before the Sith were born, and they likely will for many more now that they are dead. In other words, the Jedi are more than worth whatever threat the Sith can bring.

 

I'll say this, the Jedi might better serve the galaxy like the Dunedain Rangers, mostly unheralded for the good they are doing keeping the dark things at bay, rather than being tied politically and functionally to a corruptible government. I imagine that was their early history, prior to the wars with the Sith that tied them more formally to the Republic.

IG: @jedisufism

 

Based on the oEU was that already the case.

How do you think they are keeping the dark things at bay? Diplomacy and politics can often creat longer lasting solutions than just storming in and taking out perceived threats.

Based on the PT novelization was they originally an meditative order that realiced that they would do more good/serve the Force better by going out in the world and becoming a worldly order. But we don't know their relationship with the Republic during those days.

Personally I like the idea of the Jedi being a part of the Republic's creation.

 

I'm gonna say this here, because I keep punishing myself by looking at different social media posts of people continuing to complain about Luke in TLJ:

These folks talk about Luke Skywalker as if they never saw him choke Han Solo in Dark Empire.

Spoiler

IG: @jedisufism

 

Selective memory is a strange thing

 

Also "Luke Skywalker would never consider killing his nephew," as if Luke Skywalker didn't also keep himself from fighting Caedus personally because he knew he'd fall to the dark side himself.

IG: @jedisufism

 

Luke in TLJ had more hope for Ben than he did for Jacen in all honesty.

 

100%

He knew he wasn't the one that could bring him back, but he believed there was still a flickering light in his heart. He and everyone else had given up on Jacen. Rightly so imo but that still left me just.... void at the conclusion of LOTF.

IG: @jedisufism

 

Luke doesn’t have hope for Jacen because he’s already tried. Multiple times.

Aboard the Anakin Solo at Centerpoint Station

In space above Fondor

Both times, Caedus refused to surrender and spat in Luke’s face.

After he burned Kashyyyk and toasted Fondor, the Jedi couldn’t give him any more chances. They had to stop him, for the sake of the Galaxy.

 

The big problem by the time LotF was got to was that redemption in SW had become the caricature of religion that is:

So Father, since my last confession, I've done 10 acts of grand theft auto, shooting twenty cops and robbed 10 banks. A few Hail Marys covers it, yeah?

 

It’s not hard for Jedi to return from the Dark Side. It has happened before and all of the individuals you mention weren’t that far gone. Jacen Solo became a full-fledged Sith Lord. It’s much harder to come back from that. Moreover, there was no conflict in Caedus at the end. He was completely assured of his purpose. You can’t persuade a fanatic to abandon their cause. And that’s what Darth Caedus became at the end.