ST Finn/John Boyega Discussion Thread

Before the Awakening, a canon prequel novel to TFA says otherwise. Sadly, the writers for TFA either didn't read it or simply muted his abilities.

 

Being an underdog isn't the same thing as being belittled or a joke, or 'special'. What a strange mentality that is.

Know who else are underdogs? The rebels in the OT. But I guess you don't think they're special. Huh?

Underdog characters in stories are placed there for a specific reason, not to be a joke, but instead to typically overcome an oppressive force, who by all means, should actually win. We tend to become invested in underdog characters because we can typically see ourselves in that type of role. We've all been there. We have empathy for them. And we've all wanted to over come that position. It's a pretty classic narrative set up.

 

Underdogs are not meant to be special. they are meant to be ordinary. They are not meant to have the skills and whatever.

Finn is not a weapon expert, the best trooper in the fleet, the best sniper out there. He is just Finn. And in the end I doubt they cared about the janitor thing, he was still just the typical underdog character.

Even say JJ's Star Trek shows kirk as just an ordinary guy who becomes captain just from convenience. He doesn't have the skills or the talent. And also has some jokey moments aimed at him where they wouldn't even let him on the ship without the doctor injecting him with something that swelled up his body tee hee.

 

And THAT IS NOT CAPT KIRK. Which, I don't care if JJ wrote it, his fellow traveller Alex K did. The whole plotline of 2009 is terrible but what they did to Kirk is absolutely the worst.* Kirk is supposed to be a heroic figure, that's the whole damn point. (It's interesting that Kurtzman seems to be backtracking on that in Strange New Worlds.)

*(Besides Spock slugging Kirk, Vulcan being blown up, a SWAMP ON A STARSHIP, Spock in some exile on some ice planet that Kirk just happens to get thrown on...)

 

You are conflating issues and meanings with absolutely no understanding about what you're talking about.

The Rebels in the OT are underdogs. They might be ordinary. They are also highly skilled. They have talent. What makes them underdogs, isn't their 'ordinary' quality, it'sthat the Empire is so much more physically powerful and dominating compared to them. The Empire has vast and unlimited resources at their disposal and should win easily, whereas the Rebels have almost nothing but scrapped ships. And despite this unbalance, its their skills, their heart, their determination that allows them to finally over come the Empire.

It's a shame you've missed this all along.

Underdogs might be ordinary, but they are special within their own stories because underdogs overcome and win in the end, thus proving they were special all along. This line of thinking of yours, all to defend the ST and a character you degrade and despise with frequency, is just so absolutely bizarre.

And JJ's Trek is trash, which again shows that Jj doesn't care about character growth, or skills, or talents. He just plops characters into stories with convenience. He also treats Kirk as if he's destined to be Captain, and gets him there as quickly as possible. He's hardly an underdog in that story though.

 

No he doesn't get kirk there as soon as possible. JJ keeps kirk as the underdog all through out and then rushes him to the finish line because JJ wanted him to be the underdog as long as possible. Which makes it seem like Kirk becomes captain because he took charge and didn't get everyone killed.

And then Into Darkness, somehow he still feels like the underdog. You can honestly see the backtrack in making kirk more like he was in Star Trek 2009

And I don't despise Finn. I'm just willing to admit stuff you ain't. The rebels being the name of a group of many individuals are a different type of underdogs to what Finn is meant to be. Finn is more in like with kirk in those movies. Which is he is meant to start out small and unimportant, but like kirk it stops being fun when he stop being the underdog.

 

Finn was literally the FO’s greatest threat. Kylo was so focused on Rey that he forgot all about the traitor that was constantly infiltrating FO territory to destroy them from the inside. Finn should have had a bounty on his head, but that’s what happens when you underestimate your enemies.

 

Thats like saying Leia should have a bounty on her head after episode 4. She gave the plans to R2 that helped destroy the deathstar.

Finn isn't gonna be this character you send armies of troopers out to find. Let alone set your whole mission on finding.

 

Why the hell not? All the chain of events started with Finn. He took off with their prisoner, the map, discovered Rey, joined the enemy and literally showed them how to destroy the super weapon that the FO just finished building. Then after Kylo nearly kills Finn, Finn comes back. Finn encourages the Resistance to keep fighting back. He infiltrates and helps cripple the Finalizer. He also infiltrates and destroys the Steadfast himself which played a major part in winning the battle of Exogol.

You’re telling me that you’re just going to turn a blind eye to the traitor that knows your secrets that refuses to die and just let him live? They trained him in infantry for a major part of his life. Hell, even Hux was killed on the spot once they found out that he was a spy.

 

Are you arguing that the bastardisation of 'character' is ok because Abrams did it in Star Trek 09? That's really not a robust defence, especially given Star Trek 09 is so stupid.

Re. your point about being an 'underdog'... being an underdog doesn't mean one is necessarily without skill or ability. Indeed, the ordinary can be shown to be extraordinary in the right situation where those skills/abilities are needed. That's typically what's emphasised in an 'underdog' type story. The problem with Finn's utility (throughout TFA and specifically post the Jakuu scenes) is that the plot/characterisation/story is so poorly conceived and written, that Finn being a stormtrooper has no bearing on the actual outcome... there's certainly no emotional or dramatic outcome or payoff.... other than him having the keys to Starkiller Base, which is one of the weakest contrivances in the entirety of Star Wars (and there's quite a few to choose from). Ultimately, it's not that it's used as a convenience, but that it actually takes away (or adds nothing to) Finn's development/progression.

Finn was, IMO, the character that had the greatest potential to be actually interesting and someone (from the ST) who could actually be unique to Star Wars films... but they kind of flushed that opportunity down the toilet quite early on when Abrams/Johnson decided to focus on Han Solo/Kylo Ren respectively.

 

When did Finn stop being an underdog? At no point in the ST was he ever presented as anything else. In fact, the throughline of this entire thread is hoping the writers would have him develop into an admirable warrior that doesn't need to depend on others, then being disappointed that it never actually came to fruition. Mostly because he didn't get the focus to allow that after TFA.

 

So lets say there are 600 Storm troopers. I don't know how many and one abandons ship... do you then set out to find that trooper at all costs? You send all your best to find him? Or do you think ok well that still leaves 599 storm troopers and if he does do anything, well what does it matter? Admittedly we probably shouldn't be telling 600 of our troopers all out secrets anyway but hey.

But then what secrets does Finn know? apart from maybe aspects of Starkiller base. and then they didn't have a bounty on Leia either and she had the deathstar plans before hiding them with R2. Finn isn't this big threat at all. Heck even in TROS when they went on the Star Destroyer Poe asks which way to go and Finn response "I didn't know". Big threat there. And why didn't he know where? because then he wouldn't be the underdog if he said this way! lets go!.

Whenever people want to make Finn seem like a big threat it always sounds like pettiness because he walked away. Like an ex GF who leaves and you just can't let them go. More than actually being a threat.

Like I said "but like kirk it stops being fun when he stop being the underdog."

Its also why Rey would never have become closer to ROTJ luke where he is kinda monk like. Because to some people that's just kind dull.

 

Kylo put a bounty out on his pookie Rey. Though I guess that will draw some sort of denial too. Anyway, it actually turns out that Finn did canonically have a bounty on his head. Finn is also force sensitive and that’s how he’s able to find his way to what he’s looking for subconsciously. That will draw denial too. Oh well.

 

If we are talking about Empire, well yeah but there were particular motives that were not about Han. Which is why Vader was like yeah you can have Han to Boba.

Infact going by the same logic of Finn and Starkiller, then no he is probably more in line with Leia because Vader aggressively called her a traitor too. She also gave the plans to R2 and sent him off with them. and that resulted in Deathstar being destroyed. where is her bounty out of pettiness?

But if we mean Jabba the Hutt seeking Han. that's very different.

If you wanted to be kind, Phasma is the one who probably would seek out Finn because what else has she got going on? She is someone who trains the storm troopers or something? i dunno. What does she do again? Surely that's her area of work right? the storm troopers?

 

He can have Han, if Han survived, because that was his payment for getting Han, otherwise Vader was going to pay him outright for the loss. The issue totally revolved around Han and his former actions with the Hutts.

Leia is a traitor. The Empire is the government.
Finn was kidnapped. The FO is not the government. Finn isn't a traitor. He's an escapee.

Kylo also called Rey's friends (Poe, Finn and the entire Resistance) traitors, thieves, and murderers. Which is strange since Kylo is the one stealing and murdering innocents from the very first scene, and he's the one who actually betrayed his parents, uncle and schoolmates.

It's all backwards.

 

Kylo: The girl killed Snoke.
Umm what?

 

What do you mean with the term pookie here?

I know this word from French only from Aya Nakamura's song with that very name. In French pookie is derived from poucave, that is a person spying on a target person and then - using and exploiting a weak moment of that target person - ratting him/her out to the public. That's what this song is about, but I see no fitting of this meaning into this ST setting at all.

 

Ah, I see. “Pookie” is a term of endearment that’s being used by some in the younger generations these days. It was meant as a minor joke on my part, because I find the term a bit silly.

 

Who is Dooku's pookie? More importantly, who is Dooku's pookie's bookie?

 

Huh, I was surprised to see it referred to as a "younger generation" word so I googled and apparently it has indeed become more popular due to TikTok recently but Pookie has been around since at least the '60s. It's the name of Garfield's teddy bear for example.

 

Right. I also love Garfield. It’s just humorously bizarre what the young are randomly pulling from the past.

 

The past couple generations’ whole MO has been sampling the recent past. It's almost all they do.