Lit Fleet Junkie Flagship- The technical discussions of the GFFA (Capital Ships thread Mk. II)

I have no idea how you guys are able to keep track of all these obscure details.

 

Did we just find out who Supreme Leader Snoke really was?? Was he hiding in plain sight all this time???

 

Wait...we can post again!

 

Spoiler

MC85 is back boys!!!

 

Do you know old that joke is? Long enough not to be funny.

 

double post.

 

Spoiler

I suppose we aren't getting any new cap ships after all. Nice to see the MC85 back though.

 

I at least had not heard it before

 

Spoiler

New type of starfighter, if I'm not mistaken.

나의 SM-G960N 의 Tapatalk에서 보냄

 

I thought it was funny.

...do you just, like, have an irrational hatred of the very mention of Snoke? You complained all the time whenever people mentioned him pre-TLJ as well.

 

Yeah, or a simplified 2 seat trainer version? (That guy in the back must have no legs to fit in there )

 

Snoke Loroan from the Jedi Prince saga books where he was mentioned and Supreme Leader Snoke are completely different characters. I don't see a connection aside from the name. Both different characters.

I have no problem with Snoke's mentioning, just that the joke they are secretly the same character bores me and isn't funny.

 

I assume it's generally the same - keeping our own databases and catalogs of details.
Also, spending a lot more time thinking about it than we probably should be spending.

 

Mandalorian trailer! Awesome, in general, but here are the Fleet Junk highlights:

Spoiler

Some nice new shots of the Razorcrest - there's a rear hatch: have we seen that before?

The ship with a cockpit a bit like a Y-wing, seen alongside the Razorcrest in a previously-released shot, is glimpsed a bit more here - turns out to have a classic "Corellian" design with docking/boarding/loading arms like the Falcon. Looks simultaneously nondescript and cool, spacious and compact all at once - a ship that doesn't want to attract too much attention while still looking perfect. Really like that vibe.

And there's a TIE Fighter! Possibly one of the ones from TUF with the wings that fold flat for landing, recently rumoured to appear in the series...

@Alpha-Red - strangely retentive memories for ryschate!

(*nods at @blackmyron * )

@Chris0013 - I love the idea that Snoke Loroan is Supreme Leader Snoke (I'm with Gamiel and Vthuil - this was new to me, and made me grin)... but I doubt that he was ever canonically in Rogue Squadron.

There's precisely one known reference to him outside Wookieepedia, in the self-consciously silly "Glove of Darth Vader" kids' series, and all that's stated here is that he was a Corellian pilot who made the trip from Yavin to Bespin in "fifteen standard time parts", which even the Falcon was never able to equal, and that he "got wiped out" at Endor. The context suggests he was involved in the Alliance relocation from Massassi Base to Echo Base, but we don't know if he flew a fighter or something larger, and strictly speaking, we don't even know for sure that he was a Rebel rather than an Imperial.

If there is any more to this - if his name was borrowed for a starfighter game, for instance - I'd be delighted to know!

@Ton_G - Yes, we can. Yippee!

@Pons - as Sinre and Snoke already said, this looks like a V-wing ugly to me ("vugly", I guess? ). Those fixed wings presumably come off some other type of fighter, though (aerofoil/repulsorlift packages for improved dirt-flying performance?)... they look familiar, but I can't quite place them.

@Noash_Retrac - getting back to the big discussion, the issue for me with Endor is that the original fighter formation clearly comes apart on the Death Star's deflector shield, where the pilots are focused on pulling round however they can rather than on staying with their units. After that, what began as neat squadron and flight formations of X-wings, Y-wings, A-wings and B-wings are reshuffled into mixed and improvised formations, which themselves break apart and reform as the dogfight progresses. To take a clear example in reboot-canon, Green Squadron in Shattered Empire has picked up a Y-wing and an X-wing...

I see your logic about Sila Kott as Red Three being the "straight" reading inferred from the movie footage - we see Wedge giving an order to Red Two and Red Three, to which she acknowledges in a way that implies she's one of them, but a different pilot in a different type of fighter is later "Red Two"; but that assumes fixed callsigns - even if the footage is taken to be essentially accurate, Sila Kott could have been Red Two (as the script says) and the Y-wing could have subsequently been bumped up to that callsign...

This seems all the more likely to me because Sila Kott and the Y-wing pilot ought to have started in Green Squadron and Gray Wing respectively, implying that their mid-battle callsigns are impromptu reassignations - and moreover, the script indicates that the pilot flying as Red Three at that point was not Sila or the Y-wing, but "Green Leader", Arvel Crynyd...

As to the dubbing, how do you explain Sila Kott's voice being overdubbed - do you think that, "within the story", her real voice has been replaced by someone else's, or do you think she's using a vocoder to disguise her voice, or do you just not let this bother you? To me, that shows that voices are not completely reliable here, so when we have the same actor in the same helmet as "Gray Leader" and "Red Two", I'd be more inclined to regard this as a single pilot whose callsign has been swapped, rather than two different characters who happen to be clones...

(Do not take me entirely seriously here...?)

I like your point about Aril Nunb, though... and I'm certainly not opposed to "Red Two" being Will Scotian, with the difference that I'd probably interpret that to mean that Will Scotian's original position was as Gray Leader (more on this below)...

But would I be right to suspect that you specifically like the idea of the squadrons being mixed from the get-go, and holding their formation through the battle...? If so, that's entirely fair enough - my headcanon does not pull any kind of rank on yours!

Thinking this through some more... here's my quick pass at a ridiculously completist version of the Battle of Endor, combining pre-reboot canon and reboot-canon into a single Abel/Sinre-style narrative (which works way better than I expected, but is phenomenally complicated, and at the risk of stating the obvious, this is just for fun, and is certainly not intended to usurp anybody else's headcanon or anything official that I've overlooked):

Gold Force: the Rebel Alliance fighter attack at Endor
by Thrawn McEwok

We have references to "Red Group" and "Gold Group", but Lando's "all wings" comm is responded to not only by "Red Leader", Wedge Antilles, but by "Green Leader", Arvel Crynyd, and "Gray Leader", who we can call Salm-Scotian for fun ( ). That to me implies that there are two groups - Red and Gold - but four wings - Red, Gold and Green, and Gray.

That also implies that the "leader" pilots are commanding at the group or wing level, not simply leading the squadrons. Lando is Gold Leader, which means he's commanding both Gold Group and the subordinate Gold Wing - in fact, he's also commanding the entire attack force too ("Gold Force"? Yeah, I'm going to call them Gold Force...).

Wedge, as Red Leader, is commanding Red Group, and also the subordinate Red Wing.

Based on the fact that Gold Leader is flying a hot-rod freighter with heavy shields and a capital-ship missile rack, whereas Red Leader is flying an X-wing, I would guess that Gold Group consists of the attack planes whereas Red Group consists of their fighter escort.

This suggests that the second component of Gold Group is Gray Wing, commanded by Gray Leader frpm his Y-wing. A-wing pilot Arvel Crynyd, as Green Leader, is commanding the second subordinate component of Red Group, under Wedge.

The novelization also adds a Blue Wing, but they may not be strictly part of Lando's Gold Force. I'll get back to them later.

Each of these wings is implicitly composed of multiple squadrons. As we see both X-wings and A-wings close in behind Wedge and Crynyd during the "all wings" sequence, both types are quite possibly represented in both wings of Red Group.

In addition (because this is the completist version), I'd point to the fact that the novel gives each leader a wingman with a distinctive callsign - Crynyd's wingman is named under the callsign "Green Wing" (and as he plays a key role in taking down the Pride, we know that this is Gemmer Sojan). Blue Leader similarly has Blue Wing, and a reference to "Gray Wing" disintegrating under flak from the Imperial fleet may relate to Gray Leader's wingman rather than the entire formation. This usage recurs repeated in the attack run, where the Falcon is covered by "Gold Wing", while the A-wing flying as Wedge's wingman (Tycho rather than Farrell, IMHO) is "Red Wing".

And here's the skifter...

Because the "leaders" are commanding wings and groups, they are not commanding individual squadrons directly.

Each of the senior commanders has a callsign based on the designation of a multi-squadron formation, and a dedicated wingman - so Wedge, who is commanding both Red Group and the subordinate Red Wing, is Red Leader, and is accompanied by an X-wing with the callsign "Red Wing". This wingman presumably acts as the XO of this multi-squadron formation.

Now, some of these multi-squadron formations also have a "lead squadron" which provides their name - such as Green Squadron. So, are there two A-wings using the callsign "Green Leader"? I don't think so - the original squadron commander and his wingman (Crynyd and Sojan) have been pushed up to wing-leader and wing-XO level, and we know from Shattered Empire #2 that the squadron leader is flying as "Green One" rather than Green Leader a few days after Endor, so I reckon this reflects the practice that was used at Endor - although the use of the "wing" callsign allows another pilot to be temporarily allocated Sojan's normal callsign, "Green Two" (at Endor, this is the Duros L'ulo L'ampar, subsequently Shara Bey, Poe's mom).

However, this system does not follow in every wing: there is no Red Squadron involved - within Red Wing, Rogue Squadron are probably flying simply as Rogue Squadron, even if their temporary commander is probably using a callsign like "Rogue One" rather than "Rogue Leader".

I am not certain of the canonicity of either Gray Squadron or Gold Squadron, either - Gray Squadron is referred to explicitly "at the Battle of Endor" in the CCG, so I'd include them provisionally out of the principle of completeness, even though @Noash_Retrac has already noted that the information here is hard to square with the movie footage. However, the only explicit reference to Gold Squadron that I've found is in the Battle of Akiva timeframe in Aftermath. I don't know if they're securely tied to Endor.

With me so far?

Anyway, my working hypothesis is that the overall formation looks like this:

Gold Force - General Baron Lando Calrissian, flying as "Gold Leader", with a personal wingman flying as "Gold Wing"

• Gold Group (also commanded by Lando)

1. Gold Wing (also commanded by Lando)
   * Squadrons of B-wings and/or Y-wings
2. Gray Wing - commanded by "Salm-Scotian", flying as "Gray Leader", with a personal wingman flying as "Gray Wing"
   * Gray Squadron (Y-wings)
   * Additional squadrons of Y-wings and/or B-wings

​

• Red Group: Commander Wedge Antilles, flying as "Red Leader", with a personal wingman flying as "Red Wing"

1. Red Wing (also commanded by Wedge)
   * Rogue Squadron (X-wings)
   * Additional Squadrons of X-wings and/or A-wings
2. Green Wing - commanded by Arvel Crynyd, flying as "Green Leader", with a personal wingman flying as "Green Wing"
   * Green Squadron (A-wings)
   * Additional Squadrons of X-wings and/or A-wing

​

However... and this is really the key point... this organized formation doesn't really survive the pull-out from the shield.

1. After the pull-out, Wedge improvises an impromptu "Red Squadron" or "Red Flight" from those pilots who form up with him. I'll use the term "Red Flight" for clarity, as they're not a formal squadron. Sila Kott, a Green Squadron pilot, becomes Red Two, and Arvel Crynyd, the original Green Leader, joins in as Red Three ("Red Two, Red Three, pull in!", supported by their designations in the script). Other pilots will join in somewhat at random.

2. Sila gets vaped. Subsequently ("Good shot, Red Two!") her callsign is taken over by Gray Leader; he may be the same squint-vaping Y-wing pilot who swooped in to vape the squint that vaped Sila earlier in the fight, but at that point he was neither Red Two nor Red Three.

3. However, by the time Wedge starts the attack run, Tycho has taken over as his wingman - addressed as Red Two by Lando in the radio drama, and as Red Wing by Wedge in the novellization. These alternating designations show that he's flying as Wedges' impromptu wingman.

This thus explains the confusing designations - "Red Flight" is an impromptu formation of stray pilots, forming up on Wedge and shifting their roster as the dogfight continues. Although at least five pilots form part of the unit during the dogfight, Red Flight may never muster more than a mere three fighters at any one time.

Lando, meanwhile, has picked up an impromptu escort of his own during the attack run - Jake Farrell in his A-wing is now using the callsign Gold Four. Note that Farrell's A-wing is the one following Lando, as his acknowledgement (still in straight-line flight) comes after the A-wing on Wedge's wing veers off (i.e. Tycho, variously referred to as "Red Two" or "Red Wing"). We can add the other two fighters following Lando to this impromptu "Gold Flight", presumably as the implied "Two" and "Three" - an X-wing (pilot Keir Santage, properly Rogue Seven) and a Y-wing (Snap Wexley's mom - we know she's "Gold Nine", but not I think for certain that she's Gold Nine at Endor) - and the novel also adds a fighter with the callsign "Gold Wing", which follows Wedge and Lando into the attack when the others break off, but doesn't appear on screen, and is presumably Lando's original wingman, trying to catch up with the group.

As to the specific puzzle of Green Squadron, we can produce a reasonably full roster and narrative:

Green Leader - wing commander, Arvel Crynyd (Thyferra), promoted from squadron leader, retaining his callsign
"Green Wing" - wing XO, Gemmer Sojan (Mimban), switching his callsign from "Green Two".
"Green One" - acting squadron leader; not explicitly identified, but the obvious choice is Jake Farrell, switching from his usual callsign of Green Four
"Green Two" - L'ulo L'ampar (Duros); this is actually Sojan's normal callsign; as he inherits command, probably a flight leader, normal callsign Green Five or Green Nine
Green Three - Tycho Celchu (Alderaan)
Green Four - Shara Bey; this is actually Farrell's normal callsign, probably as squadron XO
Green Five - uncertain; this may be L'ulo L'ampar's normal callsign, as his seniority suggests he's a flight leader.
Green Six - Kokely
Green Seven - Pick
Green Eight - uncertain; I'm guessing this is Shara Bey's normal callsign, as she would likely be pulled up from the same flight as L'ulo L'ampar, to avoid leaving a "stray" pilot without a wingman. She also tag-teams with Kokely and Pick, suggesting she's their flight-mate.
Green Nine - uncertain; a flight leader position, so most logically the unnamed "lost Rebels" pilot, who is clearly a veteran.
Green Ten, Green Eleven, Green Twelve - uncertain; Sila Kott would by elimination be one of these, the other two are unknown.

I do not think that the original slots of L'ulo L'ampar and Shara Bey are filled by additional pilots. I would expect at least some of Kokey, Pick, and the two unidentified pilots to be non-human.

During the pull-up from the deflector shield, the Green Squadron formation gets hopelessly muddled. Sila Kott and Arvel Crynyd join Wedge's improvised "Red Flight" as Red Two and Red Three. Tycho later does the same takes over as Red Two. At some point, Farrell joins Lando's impromptu "Gold Flight" as Gold Four. We also see Sojan, still using his "wing" callsign, join the Falcon, Wedge, and Merrick Simms in the attack on the Pride.

However, after flying as Red Three, Crynyd rejoins the squadron, taking command as Green Leader.

By this point, the squadron roster - the group of A-wing pilots who've held together as a formation - has been reduced to L'ampar, Shara, Kokely, and Pick (actually an established flight of fighters who'd been split up during the Endor shuffle, now forming up again). They've also picked up a Y-wing and an X-wing from other units. Crynyd dispatches Shara (Four) to provide top cover for Lando and Wedge, along with "Seven and Three" - one of these is an A-wing pilot she addresses by name as "Pick", and the other is the stray X-wing - as Green Three is properly Tycho's callsign, we can guess that's where the X-wing has slotted in, and infer that Green Seven is Pick's normal callsign (reflected above). The Y-wing is presumably flying as Green Eight (Shara's old callsign, currently free).

After Endor, Farrell takes over as Green Leader, wing commander, while Sojan remains as wing XO with his new callsign. L'ulo L'ampar is promoted to Green One, and Shara Bey to Green Two, as seen in Shattered Empire #2.

Phewh! As usual, I'm mildly amazed how everything just locks together!

On the other hand, I'm not going to try and figure out who was actually flying in Rogue Squadron, partially because I'd need to try and resolve how accurate Wookieepedia is, but also becuase @Noash_Retrac has done a lot here already, and I suspect he has a pretty good idea of what callsigns are cited in various sources. Suffice to say, very few pilots seem to be explicitly said to have been with the Rogues (rather than Red Group) at Endor.

Now, some additional puzzles...

There's also a Blue Squadron, characterised as a B-wing formation tasked to go after Imperial capital ships; but the novel makes clear that Blue Leader's wingman is using the callsign "Blue Wing", which implies the existence of a multi-squadron "Blue Wing" formation. Blue Squadron would therefore be the "lead squadron" of this wing - possibly paired with a fighter escort rather than more attack planes.

We know that Blue Leader was Merrick Simms, while Ten Numb is Blue Five, and Blue Seven has an action figure as Paslo Thern, but I'm not sure how solid Wookieepedia's claims that Keyan Farlander, Bowman Gavin and Ibtisam were in this squadron really are (I certainly can't see a squadron allocation for Bowman Gavin in either Tyrant's Test or CSWE)... note also that Simms, as "Blue Leader", is implied to be serving as wing commander, and the squadron leader is probably "Blue One".

Now, Blue Wing don't appear in Gold Force in the movie's "report in" scene during the initial dive, but they appear in the novel in a duplicate sequence after the pull-back, as Gold Force swings round to attack the Imperial fleet. I'm guessing they added themselves to the formation as the formation redeployed into their own specific mission.

In short, I'm guessing that Blue Wing were not initially assigned under Lando's command. This has an important implication, overlooked but reasonably obvious once you realise...

Lando's fighter force is specifically the attack formation rather than the entire Alliance fighter force at Endor - a significant proportion of the Rebellion's fighters are likely to be held back as escorts for the fleet ("Home Force"?). This will include, for example, the force of around ninety-eight fighters brought by the two carriers from the Virgilian Free Navy - old Z-95s, potentially mixing in some C-73 Trackers and Zebra Fighters, which are even slower, and have neither shields nor missiles; they are unsuitable for the attack formation, but they have enough speed and firepower to intercept TIE Bombers.

"Yellow Group", mentioned in Shattered Empire #1, presumably formed part or all of the main fleet picket force, organized separately from Gold Force.

There are also Tala One and Tala Two, the pair of Z-95s helping Chewie and the Ewoks rout the Imperials on the surface, per the CCG. They're really not fair, but they're fun, so I'll mention them here. Obviously Airen Cracken and Blount, mentioned in the CCG as their usual pilots, aren't piloting them because they're on the Falcon....

Anyone got any more Endor references that can be fitted in here? Do we know who the original "Red Wing" riding shotgun on Wedge was...?

And are Cracken's Flight Group at Endor? I have some crazy ideas here, but I thought I'd wait and see if anyone has anything on this topic before I start to mention them...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

Spoiler

 

Now that's a reference I've not heard in a long time. A long time.

 

EC Henry's Mon Cal cruiser. This is what Allegiance or Ep.9 should have given us. Not a dozen kitbashed MC75s.

 

I love his work, but with respect, I love the new Mon Cala ships that appear to be MC75 variants. The MC75 is one of the best looking and most striking designs in Star Wars. Period.

I’m also stoked we got another MC85 today too. Easily the second best design.

Oh, and speaking of today’s Allegiance #4:

Spoiler

The fact that the Mon Cala fleet included some non-Mon Cala designs leads me to believe the following:

1. This is proof that NR members had a degree of standardization for their PSF’s.

2. These ships may be surviving NRDF units that Mon Cala absorbed post-Hosnian Prime.

Also- it doesn’t surprise me that Mon Cala had at least one MC85 in its fleet. The NR would want to protect such an important asset.

—Adm. Nick

 

@Pons

If we hadn't seen the bevvy on new ships I would have expected little in the way of new ships. But TROS' crew cranked out ~5 new designs, if not more. We also know the Aftab will be featured in some way, per the trailer. While he may be on an MC85, It's possible that he will have a distinct ship.


@AdmiralNick22 @ThrawnMcEwok

I think the trailer shot may not be finished or perhaps simply a placeholder for another space battle moment. At one point an MC75 just pops into existence from one frame to another. Watch 1:07 in the trailer closely, on the lefthand side, behind one the distant vertically aligned corvettes. An MC75 with the little fins just appears in the frame.

 

Anyone? Anyone? Endor?

Spoiler

That was a bit spoilery, so I didn't want to mention. I suspect this is a flashback to the Clone Wars?

Ewok Ewok Ewok.

That's not impossible. The YouTube version of the trailer puts the ships at 1:00 to 1:03 - which version are you using, and should I be looking on your left (their starboard) or their port side (you right)?

While the variations between the MC75s show that they're already making some fairly serious effort at differentiating even the background ships, I wouldn't be surprising if they keep refining this.

The one thing I think I'm really missing in that picture as far as Rebel ships goes would be a classic Corellian gunship or two, but that seems a bit unnecessary when we already have a new version of the same concept. Wouldn't mind an unmodified YT-2400 and YT-2000 (Outrider and Otana), or a YZ-775 (No Luck Required), as far as hero-ship references go (hero 'ship? I want to make an A/T joke here. ). A Quasar Fire in Virgilian colours would be nice, but I can understand if they don't fit the "cavalry charge" vibe.

Part of the problem is that a lot of the more characterized New Republic types - Majestic, Endurance - don't have an immediately recognizable hullform that even the most fannish viewer will respond to.

I suspect there'd be enthusiasm for a wider variety of Mon Cal designs - the three classic Return of the Jedi types (at this point, I'll remind everyone that The Essential Guide to Warfare established the "wingless" version - the one that's neither Home One nor Liberty - as the standardised built-a-a-warship variant in the pre-reboot canon), maybe add in Mon Remonda an a light cruiser, and modify the Raddus CGI for Viscount in the background?

Hoping for a Vindicator (Interdictor with a clean arrowhead hull, without the gravity-well domes, maybe small rotating turrets in their place) or Hera's Acclamator-refit carrier to represent Hera's flagship Lodestar (heck, I'd love to see the variant with the sharp keel and ventral-bay represented by Pellaeon's Leveller), but I'm not sure that having an Imperial design in that mix would fit with the aesthetics...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

EC Henry is certainly doing rather well with the rebel ship designs. I hope one day they finally get official lore.

The wingless Liberty-types (which I refer to on my Appearances list in as the "MC80 wingless Liberty-type Star Cruiser") deserved more love and I certainly would've liked to have seen at least one of the ROTJ ships being named. I remember referring to the one next to Home One in the Sullust system and the one near the Redemption as the Falcon swung beneath the frigate as the Ardent commanded by Admiral Ragab.