Lit Fleet Junkie Flagship- The technical discussions of the GFFA (Capital Ships thread Mk. II)

They still had Mintooine, but yeah, taking out Pammant is effectively halving their ship production (if we are to assume that they're similar sized facilities). I have to say, I'm a big fan of Quarren vessels, and I'm pleased to see them similar in appearance to their Mon Calamari "brothers" (which I'm also a big fan of).

I'm guessing Pammant didn't have planetary shielding? Or, would a large battlecruiser have enough mass [with its superdense fuel] to overload a shield when hitting at hyperspeed? (Hyperspace "accidents" seem like a very good reason for having shielding on even remote planets--a small transport hitting a planet at many, many times the speed of light would be quite devastating.)

 

Hundreds of separatist systems and even sectors were said to contribute Munificent frigates and Recusant destroyers to the cause (ROTS:ICS). I would assume that meant some of these were built at local shipyards, not just in the Quarren separatist-held parts of the Calamari sector.

As for shield-breaking, the then-Jedi clone X2 managed to penetrate a planetary shield by riding down on an Executor Star Dreadnought (not going at lightspeed, mind). The ship was destroyed, but crashed onto the surface and X2 survived. Seems like a planetary shield around Pammant would be unable to handle a Star Battlecruiser if it's a sizable fraction of an Executor's mass and is going at lightspeed.

 

This is just wild, random speculation, but I sometimes wonder if Palpatine didn't have anything to do with that. The Clone Wars were beginning to wind down by that point, so why not take out one of the major Confederacy shipyards? Partially it was just the ICS typing up loose ends, as it were, to explain why such a major shipyard like Pammant (which produced everything from Providences to Subjugators) wasn't a bigger player in the subsequent eras. Again, its just a wild theory, but I sometimes wonder.

It is great how they had the Confederacy navy made up of sorta pseudo-Mon Calamari designs, although I thought I read somewhere that at least some of the ships the Quarren built were based on stolen Mon Calamri plans? Although I'm not entirely sure how to reconcile everything, since the Muneficents were from the Banking Clan, the Recusants from the Commerce Guild, etc., unless they just all ordered ships from the Quarren, along with all those various systems donating ships as well. Or once all the corporations joined up, they shared designs and the Quarren just started building all of them.

In most eras the good guys are major underdogs, so they don't really have a shipyard to defend (for instance the Rebellion and Legacy eras) but it might be interesting one of these days to have a shipbuilding contest between the Mon Calamari and Quarren for the next major cruiser design or something like that. Sorta like how post-TotJ the Republic Navy had a big contest for the next starfighter design, with the Aurek winning, but the Chela also sorta winning.

Its why I sometimes wish we could see more old Confederacy ships in the Rebel navy later on. Rebel One was a nice example, though sadly it didn't get an entry in the Rebellion Era Campaign Guide, and if I remember right, things like the Rebel Assault Frigate were the result of modifying Dreadnaughts so that they didn't require such huge crews, which included using droids. And now we've got all these Confederate designs that were light on organics with mostly droid crews. Although running those droids without major corporation backing is hard, but still, it all seems kind of appropriate in a full circle sense.

 

The Recusant design was stolen from the Calamari, yes. The Providence was their own design, or, as the easter egg in Cat and Mouse would have it, an ancient Sith design.

 

some ship notes here:
http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b10003/31641521/p1/?0

 

Indeed. Thinking about it, they'd be able to build them almost anywhere, as I'm betting it's just as easy to build a Recusant-class destroyer compared to a battle droid (more materials needed with the destroyer, of course). I'm assuming the designs originated from the Quarren worlds predominantly; Providence-types, Maelovence and Recusant-types all have similar design elements (Free Dac being the designer/builder of them all, so that makes sense), just like Mon Calamari cruisers. All of them seem like they're able to be utilized underwater, and both species come from the same ocean world.

It's ironic that the Quarren were one of the main suppliers of warships to the CIS, just how the Mon Calamari were to the Rebels a short time later, which were fighting for their independence--the Quarren were fighting for their own with the CIS.

 

That's why I'm looking forward to what the Mon Cals do in TCW and TOR. There seems to be Mon Cal Trooper officers in the game, the previous chancellor was a Mon Cal and some kind of Calamari cruiser appears in some of the concept art. Hopefully both the game and the tv show will showcase some new designs. If they gained influence in certain periods of the Old Republic, the shipyards might even have provided the main bulk of vessels in certain areas of the Republic. Maybe the semi-organic-looking Capitol Ship uses Calamari systems, similar to the converted Rendili Assault Frigate Mark II.

 

Well, the history of Mon Cals are part of the greater galactic community is one of those things that has changed ALOT over the years, so I suppose these things can be expected. As Dan Wallace pointed out in his endnotes on the Atlas, the "cool factor" of the Mon Cals means that people keep using them farther and farther back in the timeline, which can cause some headaches.

Per the Essential Atlas, Dac was discovered by the Republic is 4166 BBY. The Cold War that will be covered in TOR occurs roughly 500 years later, so it is apparent that the Mon Cals were able to gain influence in the Republic fairly quickly if one of their people was elected Supreme Chancellor.

I am all for Dac having shipyards are producing native designs that far back, but I would prefer that they are not established as a major Republic shipbuilder. I like the idea that the Mon Cal shipyards grew gradually over the centuries. In addition, I like the idea that most of Dac's shipbuilding during the Republic was focused on passenger liners, exploration vessels, and the like, not warships.

--Adm. Nick

 

The thing is though, it seems these ships might appear only in a few crucial spots, given the lack of images depicting them compared with the Thranta-class and capitol ships (unless, of course, they were scrapped before the concept art was even translated to CG). I can easily envision the Mon Cals producing a limited number of warships, sort of an elite guard within the contemporary Republic Navy.

 

I am inclined to think that it might be an example of concept art that will not be used. HOWEVER, I do like you idea of the Mon Cals producing small batches of premium, elite warships that serve as special units within the Republic Navy.

--Adm. Nick

 

Considering that the Mon Cals generally made ships for the Mon Cals (at least during the RE and early NR), I would guess that their shipbuilding in ancient times was geared mostly towards themselves as well, not other races.
But yes, there's nothing that says that they wouldn't be making ships on spec - I believe the Givin, who normally make their ships without life support, will still incorporate them on demand.
I get the impression, too, that until the ROTE era, Mon Cal is considered somewhat of a backwater territory - and even in the Imperial Era, they were sufficiently isolated enough that the propaganda of the Mon Cals being recently integrated into the galaxy was believed (of course, by the same people that thought the Emperor was just swell )

 

Much like the Chiss being near-forgotten in 3,500 years, the Mon Cal's importance in the galaxy could wax and wane. I see no problem with them being high-profiled and then three and a half millennia later, have little to nothing to show for themselves, galaxy-wise. Before the CW hits and half or so of their industrial base becomes a major tool for the Separatist cause.

Remember, this is a galaxy that saw not one, but two eras of galaxy-spanning wars that brought civilization down (the Great Galactic War and Cold War era and the New Sith Wars era). To its bare minimums in the second case.

 

Here's the reference for the (non-MMORPG) KOTOR era, from the Campaign Guide:

"Mon Calamari is a new and mysterious planet whose inhabitants are largely unknown to the majority of Republic citizens. Little is known about Mon Calamari during this time because its discovery just prior to the Great Sith War is not widely publicized.. Mon Calamari has begun to deal tentatively with the Republic, but relations are far from solid... Mon Calamari is an isolated world with few outsiders during this time... Mon Calamari has not yet become a prominent starship manufacturer, though the planet does possess early hyperspace technology, and its inhabitants have been exploring nearby star systems for several years."

I guess we'll see what the MMORPG source material will end up saying about Mon Cal during that later era.

 

The idea that the Mon Cals vessels were only designed for them made sense back in the WEG days when it was canon that the Empire discovered Dac, but the susequent changes to Mon Calamari history make this idea less ideal. If Mon Cals has been a major shipbuilder and part of the Republic for millenia, it doesn't make sense. My personal "retcon" would be that the Mon Cals shipbuilding efforts really didn't turn into anything significant until the Clone Wars, hence why it took them time to start producing vessels that could be used by any species.

--Adm. Nick

 

The Clone Wars CG didn't really have anything, but here's something from the Force Unleashed CG:
"The Quarren and Mon Calamari homeworld quickly submits to Imperial forces intent on using one of the galaxy's top starship construction facilities to support their growing war machine...Imperial engineers struggle to adapt shipyards that were specifically built to produce vessels of Mon Calamari design into facilities capable of constructing even the most basic of standard Imperial starship systems."

The MC80s were probably in two separate types - those modified from Mon Cal transports, and those built as warships from the start (maybe both are MC80s, while only the latter are MC80a?) If the transports were really designed to work best with Mon Cals, then that could be an excellent reason why they were able to create a fleet so quickly - Mon Cals, naturally, would be the crew of any such ships and while the main shipyards had a fairly slow rate of manufacturing from scratch, the turnaround time for the conversions were probably correspondingly low. (I seem to recall that there was an Empire At War mission involving Han Solo recovering the Mon Cal cruiser designs from Carida(?))

 

There's always the dark age retcon (say maybe Mon Calamari was especially devastated during the dark age and so it took centuries to rebuild, until they were at Fondor's level by the Clone Wars), but still, the KotOR campaign made it sound like Mon Calamari were just spreading out into the galaxy... which sounds about right.

Although as mentioned, Mon Cals are cool so even if it doesn't really make sense other eras will use them, at the very least as cameos. Using them in TOR seems really early... but with how much they're trying to mimic the movies, I wouldn't be too surprised if Mon Calamari was already a major shipyard planet by then.

By the Rebellion era the Mon Calamari shipyards rival Fondor (and probably Kuat), so its always hard to explain how they had such advanced shipyards but weren't as famous as Kuat. Saying they only built civilian ships that could mostly only be operated by Mon Calamari can only go so far as an explanation. I still vaguely remember when they said Mon Calamari was a newly discovered planet which is why their shipyards aren't as influential as the others, but that's an old, old non-canon history by now.

One thing I liked about the KotOR era fleet was that Rendili was playing a major role in supplying the Republic fleet. I love Mon Cal designs, but in the Old Republic era I like seeing Rendili ships as something different than the usual. Rendili survives to the modern era, but usually its in the shadow of either Kuat Star Destroyers or Mon Calamari cruisers.

Although... have the Corellian shipyards ever played that big a role? Like way back in Episode IV, Han said his ship can outrun the big, Corellian ships not just the local patrol ships, but Star Destroyers are a Kuat design. LotF had Corellian dreadnoughts, but they didn't last long either. Most Corellian designs we see are civilian, smaller ships, or are usually corvettes or frigates. Although I think the KotOR CG mentioned the Leviathan came from the Corellian shipyards?

I'm actually curious if they'll bother explaining where the Sith Empire got their ships from. They've been working on their fleet for over a millennium in secret, enough to challenge the Republic, but wonder if the Empire will have any new, major shipbuilding worlds in their own territory when the game is released (hopefully this year), or they'll have just taken over some Republic ones. Stealing ships from the Foerost shipyards seems to happen often enough , maybe the Sith Empire will just outright take them over during the war.

Wonder where Mon Calamari will fall by the end of the TOR war. Its far from the Core, but I hope its still Republic territory during the game.

 

With the Atlas, we get a new take on things:

Interesting that even as only an allied territory, the Mon Cals could produce at least one Republic Chancellor and Republic special forces officers. And of course, their exploration of interstellar space now spans centuries, not just years.

I wonder what those CW-era "assault frigates" and "battle cruisers" could be?

 

I'm looking forward to the coming Mon Calamari episodes too. I'm betting they'll probably go with the underwater combat as seen in the previous Clone Wars series, i.e., light cavalry and small submersibles compared to large underwater subs, but that's not too bad, as large vessels probably have too many negatives underwater compared to fast attack craft in the SW universe. I think I saw a Trident Drill in the preview, which is pretty cool; I liked them in ARC Troopers, and as Ventress' craft.

Watching Season 3, I've seen a couple of RotS Providence and Recusant-classes, so they obviously have the models for them in addition to the others. The large Providence-type, even without the accompanying official statements, can easily fit in, and not to mention the destroyer that resembles a large Recusant.

Interesting note: A Hyena bomber hits a Venator with four "vertically" fired missiles in Citadel Rescue. They didn't appear to do much to the ship, but they still had enough power to have a beyond shield/armor effect which entered the gunnery decks. I much prefer bombs/missiles doing this amount of damage to capital ships compared to lasers (which we've seen in the series), but that's just me.

 

Finally finished with the stealth ship, the Separatist dreadnaught and the large destroyer, size comparisons. Rough estimates and on the safe side, I tried to keep the ship dimensions as small as possible, the bare minimum of how big the compartments need to be for clones and humanoid characters in general to stand up inside them.

 

the Mon Cals had already been in space by centuries by the time of the MMO...so the Mon Cal Chancellor could easily be a native of, say, the Core Worlds rather than of Dac or its environs

Do we actually have a canon source STATING the Providence and Recusant designs come in multiple sizes?

 

Wookieepedia claims the Invincible was a Providence-class variant in the Season 1/2 guide, which I don't have - can someone else verify?
(It might also be a question for Jason Fry)

 

Really? I recall you were the one who posted that in the first place saying it's from the guide you now say you don't have.

If you don't have it, where did you get that info from?

 

ok let me clarify...I know certain classes have variants, do we have a canon source stating explicitly *in words* some of the variants of the classes are different sizes

 

There's the MC80 Liberty type that's usually 1200 meters long and based on a MC80 liner that's 500 meters long while looking exactly the same (used same LFL promo pic for profile in Riders of the Maelstrom and the stats are in the book itself).
The Recusant used in Grievous Intrigue is modelled to be at least twice as large as a Venator and has a hangar which does not exist on the movie-version. It's also said to be based on the ROTS ship and the Recusant from the movie has no CW appearance tag (this from the Official Site and its Episode Guide).
Dan Wallace said on these very boards he wanted the Bulwark Mk.I (from NEGC) to be an earlier, smaller model of the Rebellion game Bulwark.
Despite being larger and having structural differences, the Imperious-class is said to be a new version of the Pellaeon-class in LECG.
The Eclipse and Eclipse II have apparantly different dimensions, with one being 17,5 km long and the other 16 km, though that may stem from a confusion with the DE I comic book (ten miles =16 km said in text) and the sourcebook (17,5 km). On Saxton's Tech site he references Michael Allen Horne, saying they added a few hundred more metres to suggest the special customisation of the Emperor's personal Eclipse-class ship for the sourcebook. I assume that's private correspondence.

 

And by a strange coincidence, the MC40a light Calamari cruisers are... 500m long.

If you have an actual quote from Dan that mentions it being smaller, feel free to share it. Otherwise, I guess we'll see when the new guide is out.

I'll go ahead and provide the quotes for you here:

Source where the Eclipse II is explictly given as 16 km long? The latest source I'm aware of - the 2nd Edition SOTG - states the class length is 17.5 km.

And that I also said this a few pages prior to that:
"For those with the Season 1/2 Guide, did it just not address what the oversized Commerce Guild support ship and the Invincible actually were? That's the impression that I'm getting..."

From the same place that I just mentioned a post or two ago, hence the "Apparently" (and the icon in the original post). As you may or may not have noted, no one here confirmed one way or another, and I think it was clear in my most recent post on the subject that I still had that under 'not-verified'; my personal notes still have it unclassed, BTW.
Feel free to post in this very thread any verification you have on the subject.