Lit Fleet Junkie Flagship- The technical discussions of the GFFA (Capital Ships thread Mk. II)

The Assertor's completely new- but the Bellator at least was conceived as being one of the ships seen in Dark Empire:



as was the Secutor:



The Procursator provides an explanation as to why the ships flanking the Allegiance are a bit smaller than Imperial-class (using the 2200m figure for Allegiance-length), with only 3 thrusters, and don't look much like Victory-class:

 

What a ridiculous mindset. You wouldn't complain if someone added a new world, character, species, conflict, plant, city, mineral, sector, stormtrooper, space station etc.

 

Considering the heavy fighting during the years 10 ABY to 11 ABY between the Galactic Empire and the New Republic, the Imperial Civil War following the capture of Coruscant, the clone Emperor's madness and uncaring, the subsequent destruction of Byss and the later fighting amongst the Imperial warlords until 12 ABY, most of these larger vessels most likely were lost, leaving a few Imperial-class and smaller ships left and I highly doubt that Pellaeon would go on a wimp and build larger vessels when the fighting strength of Imperial-class and older Victory-class Star Destroyers, not to mention owning three Star Dreadnaughts (Reaper, Megador and Dominion), plus smaller craft such as Immobilizer 418-class Interdictor Cruisers, Strike-class medium cruisers, Carrack-class light cruisers and Lancer-class frigates and an assortment of other ships would mean other ship classes might have fallen into disuse.

 

As for Space Station Validusia, another casualty of the Imperial Mutiny.

 

Was the Megador captured at Anx Minor after its engines were damaged? We know the Reaper was destroyed at Celenon, at least.

If the Megador had indeed been captured - the SSD in Destiny's Way (I'm guessing the Dominion) may have been the Remnant's last dreadnought.

 

I would hazard a guess that the Megador was under repairs at Yaga Minor or another Imperial shipyard throughout the Yuuzhan Vong War due to lack of proper resources. I have always thought the Dominion was orbiting Bastion in "Destiny's Way".

 

The Megador's referred to as the "Galactic Alliance Star Destroyer Megador" in The Swarm War, when Pellaeon uses it as the flagship for his taskforce after being appointed Galactic Alliance Defence Force Supreme Commander after Sian Sovv's death.

The last time the topic was brought up, was apparently:

 

The Galactic Alliance still has the Super Star Destroyer Guardian.

 

Wasn't Admiral Nek Bwua'tu commanding the Megador in Apocalypse: giving the Millennium Falcon launch clearance?

And one or more of the Viscounts- the Bounty certainly- and possibly the Viscount itself.

The Harbinger was fielded as part of a flotilla consisting of it, the Guardian, and the Viscount- which I've seen taken as a hint that it may be a large, dreadnought-type ship itself.

 

Until we saw that the Megador was under Admiral Bwua'tu's command in Apocalypse, it was safe to assume she was a Imperial Remnant naval assest assigned to the GADF as part of their treaty obligations. However, given the rift between the Alliance and Empire in FOTJ, that assumption cannot be made anymore. It really is a mystery, unless we assume that the Imperial Remnant, when still under Pellaeon, donated or sold the vessel to the new government to help strengthen it. Given how Pellaeon mellowed over the years and became an ardent GA supporter, this might be the case.

--Adm. Nick

 

Do we have any indication that the Remnant ceased its treaty obligations?

 

I highly doubt that even Pellaeon would have mellowed that much. A Star Dreadnought isn't just something you cough up, and as far as I'm aware we have no other examples of Remnant vessels being wholly ceded to the GADF. Now that I'm thinking about it, I'd lay odds Megador was captured at Anx Minor; among other things it would help explain why a year later the Remnant's military strength was considered almost negligible unless in the hands of someone of Thrawn's caliber.

As far as the Assertor, remember that fractalsponge's description of her design and capabilities hasn't been entered into the canon along with the ships themselves. I love the design and would like to see its canon history fleshed out, but as it stands it sounds like something of the Gary Stu of Star Dreadnoughts - more powerful than Executor and a better combatant than Sovereign or Eclipse. We also have the problem of where to put the darn thing; despite the provided description it seems highly unlikely the post-Shadow Hand Remnant or warlords could put together something like that. It's also way too overpowered for a role in the Endor-to-Thrawn span of the Empire. The only logical place it fits is with the other dreadnoughts of the Dark Empire.

 

The Megador being in the dock at Yaga Minor would make more sense, if the Remnant didn't have money to repair it, it's just another battle station at best (and also explain why Bel Iblis approached attacking Yaga Minor in VotF with a lot of trepidation, even for an Ubiqtorate HQ/shipyard combination).

 

^ That works.

 

I noticed that tendency in fractalsponge's writing.

The 3 big task forces that came out of the core in the Dark Empire period (according to TEGtW) don't have Assertors mentioned:

"Out of the Deep Core came a trio of massive task forces of Star Destroyers anchored by massive dreadnoughts the New Republic had thought destroyed or lost: four Executor-classes (including the missing Whelm), five Mandator-IIIs and three Vengeance-classes."

However- it's possible that "and also new dreadnoughts that had never been heard of before" can be added to that.

I'd be interested in knowing when the Bellator-class and Allegiance-class entered service. We see them in TEGtW in a pic that must take place before the events of ESB, since it has both Piett and Ozzel in it. While art isn't always accurate- I like the notion that it's a depiction of an actual event:

 

Sort of a tangent, but looking up the Bellator, and the Mandator III, and all the various sizes of SSDs, what if Super-class was a legitimite name, but an Imperial Navy/ Senate Appropriations term, like a RFP title. Think the USAF's FX, AX, and ATF-programs. You have the Navy/Senate putting out a request for an updated Super-class Star Destroyer/Dreadnought. The base proposal just after the Clone Wars ends for an updated Mandator II, which is 8 KM, resulting in the most well known impression of the Super Class as an 8Km ship. KDY responds by trimming down and refining the Mandator II into the Bellator, meanwhile Lira Wessex is playing around with a proof of concept 12 KM design, the Sarlaac project.

Sarlaac project works, but is sabotoged and destroyed. Still, it is influential enough to get the Navy to change the RFP to be a larger 12 KM design, and again KDY uses the Mandator II as a base and scales it up to 12 KM. Lira Wessex is more ambitious though, and designs a ship far different and larger, the Executor class. Being a new design from the base up, the design and development costs are massive, compared to the Bellator and Mandator III which are evolutions of the tried and true Mandator line. Finally, the Navy agrees to support the Executor, and funds it through the Super-Class RFP, leading the Senate to think it is still the smaller 8 or 12 KM design. Meanwhile, KDY has already designed the Bellator and Mandator III, and likely pressures the Navy into ordering some, which the Navy does in small numbers as both a stopgap for the long Executor development and construction, and to bulk out the numbers of dreadnoughts.

 

Currently, the idea seems to be that "the Super-class was the pre-release fake name for the Executor-class" so to speak:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Super-class_Star_Destroyer

The name "Super-class Star Destroyer" was invented by Imperial Navy officials and used in its budget requests to the Imperial Senate during the design and construction phase of the Executor-class Star Dreadnought. This ruse was made to hide the true nature of the class, even going so far as to understate its size and armament, so that oversight committees would not discover its true role.[2]

By the time the first vessel, Executor, was operational, the official designation had been changed to its original intention, but Super Star Destroyer and Super-class Star Destroyer had stuck in people's minds and was applied to other models, like theSovereign-class and Eclipse-class.[4][2]

One of these budget requests which included the "Super-class" and several other capital ship designs was sent to Palpatine's advisors on budgetary affairs. This document found its way into the hands of the Rebel Alliance, where it was used as a primary source regarding the Empire'scapital ship capabilities by Arhul Hextrophon.

The Empire publicly revealed that four Super-class Star Destroyers, specifically Executor-class vessels, were completed by the Battle of Hoth. Circa 1 BBY, Imperial gunner Tenn Graneet hoped he would be assigned to one of them.

Still, the idea of it being like "Advanced Tactical Fighter" or "Joint Strike Fighter" - an operational name for several proposals, not just one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Tactical_Fighter
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Strike_Fighter_Program

is an interesting one.

The Mandator III being the same length as the Sarlacc Project ship:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Super_Star_Destroyer_prototype
http://jasonfry.tumblr.com/post/23039847571/eg-to-warfare-endnotes-pt-7

does seem like it would suggest a connection between the two.

(I also like the notion of downscaling the Executor to 13.3 km based on the Brass Star Destroyer model being roughly 1/4800 scale and the Executor model being 277cm: but I'm not sure if anyone else does, except maybe blackmyron).

The "Sarlacc Project = Mandator III inspirer as well as Executor prototype" hypothesis (with the Assertor being a further derivative of the Mandator III) is an interesting one- maybe comparisons will show if the Assertor looks like a descendant of the Sarlacc Project:

Assertor:


Sarlacc Project:

 

Yes, which is what I was talking about. A new, never-before-seen design.

As per Fractalsponge's own words: "Less dark-side temple and terror weapon, more optimized for basic, 'conventional' fleet work against a growing New Republic." It's based on the real-life early 20th Century Panama canal-principle, where some racist douche Senator wanted the broadest battleship the US could build, that would still fit inside the Panama canal. I guess that translates to Gary Stu.

It appears in several chapters that detail the Empire prior to Endor, though. Post-Hoth, at the earliest.

 

While I am not exactly the biggest fanboy of dreadnoughts, I confess that the Assertor-class is a gorgeous design. I would even be ok if the NRDF captured one or two.

--Adm. Nick

 

I don't really see anything wrong with the Assertor set up as stronger than the Ex and Sov. The Executor is more of a command ship, we rarely see them used as proper battleships. Sovereign we just don't know how powerful it truly is, so (for all we know) it could be more powerful than the Assertor. Until we know more though...*shrug*

 

The Wrath appears after the Legacy chapters (on page 242), as does the "Altor-class replenishment ship refuelling Imperial dreadnought and battlecruiser" pic, on page 244. So the location of a book pic does not always provide info about when it occurred.

The Orinda pic of Lusankya vs Reaper is on page v. of the prologue, and the pic of Teshik vs the Hapans is on pages vi. and vii. of the prologue.

The only pic showing Assertors that's in the main section of the book, that I know of, is on page 115: illustrating the "Sector Groups & the Imperial Navy" section, describing the early Imperial Navy policy. However, it does show TIE Defenders - which weren't developed until some time after Hoth. I can't see them being deployed in large numbers until shortly after Endor (and shortly before production ceased for a long period:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/TIE/D_Defender

Maybe it was the Shadowspawn period that the Naval Station Validusia pic was a depiction of?

And also "at least twice as heavily armed as an Executor"- and more survivable as well- besides giving the Eclipse poorer conventional weaponry and a "puny engine system":

The 4e27W estimate for the Assertor-class is by reactor volume comparison to an ISD (~400xISD generation). ISDs I'm assuming are 1e25W.

Executor, by turret measurements, might be on the order of 100-200 ISDs, so 1-2e27W. Mandators, by the comparison to Recusants, should be on the order of 8e26W. So Executors would outgun Mandators by ~2x, and an Assertor should outgun an Executor by another ~2x. Eclipses and Sovereigns have no hard numbers attached to them. By potential reactor volume a Sovereign might be similar to an Assertor, Eclipses potentially higher, possibly into high 1e27 range.

Guesswork and random background notes:
Effectiveness wise, I think a Mandator might be very heavily built and much more survivable ton-for-ton than an Executor, which is more of a glass cannon, but quite fast. Assertor would have decisive superiority over either, but due to different factors (brute armament, and possibly speed over a Mandator, survivability and to a lesser extent armament over an Executor). Armament is within 5-fold of a Mandator, which should be quite decisive, but per ton might be more comparable. An Executor is going to be well enough armed to be in the same range (~2-fold), but might get hammered to pieces before it can matter.

Assertors would have superior ancillary equipment (late-generation and more numerous EW/comscan equipment, gravity well generators) compared to either older design. The miniaturized superlaser also makes it a better siege platform, as well as offering the chance for a very concentrated alpha in ship to ship, if it hits. Otherwise, the capacitor system would basically serve as an additional surge sink for the power system, enhancing survivability, or as backup for other gun batteries. Either way, the requirements for the mini-superlaser will entail more robust a hull structure and power grid than either of the earlier ships, and that feeds into more survivability and survivability per ton.

Sovereign might be a decent competitor, but we know very little about it. Probably a more powerful but slower charging superlaser, probably inferior conventional armament. Comparable acceleration? Both ships have gravity well generators, later-generation electronics.

Eclipses would be more powerful by generation and shield power. Its superlaser is much larger than a Sovereign's, and while this means it's going to have tremendous hitting power as a siege platform, the focus on the prime weapon probably gimps it in space combat. The mass of the large superlaser and associated equipment, and the bracing required for it probably means the ship is rather heavy and unwieldy, not helped by the puny engine system, which is probably more to help with the recoil of the superlaser than any serious acceleration. Very tough by virtue of the structural requirements of the superlaser and the space and volume for shield generators and heatsinks, but the requirements of that system also means conventional weaponry is going to get shafted a bit; there are no obvious large turrets on the ship, and forward arcs are somewhat of an issue due to the giant superlaser-beard.

More pertinently, the slow acceleration means that any of the other ships will likely run circles around it, and be able to concentrate their relatively superior conventional firepower at weaker spots like the engines. That's if they can dodge or fake out the Eclipse's gunnery direction for the first superlaser strike (and assuming the ones that have their own superlaser doesn't land an early hit).

On a more fluff note, I figure Assertors would be a development from the Sovereign/Eclipse lineage: cleaned up, simplified, and more focused for conventional battlefleet work like a Mandator. Cheaper but heavier materials, less complicated lines and structure, more conventional weapons, superlaser more tuned for sniping large ships and stations than shattering continents. Better and more EW and comscan equipment. Less dark side temple/terror weapon and more main line fleet combatant. The first ships would have come into service after Operation Shadow Hand, as a supplement and eventual replacement for the Sovereigns, but delayed due to the general (internal) collapse of the offensive and political chaos.

Yet in Starships of the Galaxy Saga Edition, the Eclipse is no slower, and has comparable turbolaser firepower to the Executor. Slightly less in the way of ion cannons, no concussion missiles- but much better shielding, better armour, and better point defence weaponry to protect it from starfighters.

Which is how it was originally conceived, at least:

The first ships would have come into service after Operation Shadow Hand, as a supplement and eventual replacement for the Sovereigns, but delayed due to the general (internal) collapse of the offensive and political chaos.

Hence, I'm guessing, your complaint of Stu-ishness- none of the Sovereigns were even completed by the destruction of Byss- although the lead ship was nearly so. And yet the fractalsponge design is to be their "eventual replacement":

 

The only Eclipse and Sovereign engine stats are from RPG books, so that might only be gameplay mechanics and not "true" in-universe stats. It certainly isn't depicted as speedy in Forces of Corruption. Fractalsponge might be referring to the relatively tiny thrusters placed on the bottom of the Eclipse, as depicted in the New Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels. Those were incredibly small and few in numbers, can't imagine they're good for making tight turns. I think that's why the ship was made to ram smaller capital ships: If it can't turn quickly enough, it's just going to plow through them.

 

The Executor's not exactly depicted as speedy either.

And we've already seen ISDs collide in ESB (probably due to not being good at making tight turns).

Not sure why the Eclipse should be portrayed as significantly worse than other dreadnoughts. Or why the increased durability granting it ramming ability, should be "a precaution against accidental collisions".

The point being- that when the Eclipse and the Sovereign are so poorly known- it seems a bit odd that fractalsponges's design should be specifically "better" than the Sovereign overall, and portrayed as able to "run circles around the Eclipse and concentrate relatively superior conventional firepower at weaker spots".

Especially since, given how low-detail the Dark Empire style is- we don't know that the Eclipse is relatively lacking in conventional weaponry. It's not like the turrets are shown on Imperial-class ships in Dark Empire, after all.