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Force-Users, And How to Fight Them

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Quiet_Mandalorian, Jul 31, 2006.

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  1. J_K_DART

    J_K_DART Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Dec 31, 2001
    Maybe the difference between starfighters and podracers is something to do with air-friction.
     
  2. Quiet_Mandalorian

    Quiet_Mandalorian Jedi Master star 5

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    Apr 19, 2005
    And several thousand miles an hour...
     
  3. Havet_Storm

    Havet_Storm Jedi Master star 3

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    May 19, 2004
    Wasn't it that full grown humans are too big to fit in the seat and that the idea of a child being able to control it was simply inconcievable (lame excuse, I know).
     
  4. Quiet_Mandalorian

    Quiet_Mandalorian Jedi Master star 5

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    Apr 19, 2005
    not bad.[face_thinking]
     
  5. MercenaryAce

    MercenaryAce Force Ghost star 5

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    Aug 10, 2005
    Actauly, know that I think about it....fighters would have advanced computers, HUDs, dampeners and all kinds of equipment to help the pilot while a pod is little more than...well and chair with engines.

    Also, I geuss pods are open air, while starfighters are enclosed.
     
  6. sabarte

    sabarte Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Sep 8, 2005
    A sniper shot would not be harder to predict than random capship saturation fire in a starfighter battle, and Jedi don't have trouble with that. Nor do (skilled) Jedi seem to have too much trouble in large firefights where shots coming their way aren't necessarily aimed at them. They're sensing the shot, not the shooter, so the distance is irrelevant. The Rukh example is pertinent because Rukh cannot be sensed by Joruus at the time.
     
  7. Quiet_Mandalorian

    Quiet_Mandalorian Jedi Master star 5

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    Apr 19, 2005
    Highly unlikely.

     
  8. Kenobi_Kid

    Kenobi_Kid Jedi Padawan star 4

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    May 5, 2005
    Does else anyone think that chemical weapons would be effective? I doubt that even the most powerful of Jedi would be able to stop a thousand tiny viral germs rushing to shut down their body systems.

    It seemed to work great when Jango pulled it on Dooku in Open seasons.
     
  9. 000

    000 Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 18, 2005
    Until, of course, Dooku neutralized it...
     
  10. Quiet_Mandalorian

    Quiet_Mandalorian Jedi Master star 5

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    Apr 19, 2005
    Except, of course, it wasn't meant to kill him...
     
  11. Rohniss

    Rohniss Jedi Padawan star 4

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    May 9, 2005
    Traditional Hydrogen Bombs would work as well.. theres no defense for being rendered into your component atoms..

    EDIT:

    For more fantastic weaponry.. Matter/Anti-Matter weaponry would work as well.

    EDITx2:

    I bought a M1911A1 Q_M: Garand next paycheck.
     
  12. QuentinGeorge

    QuentinGeorge Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Dec 12, 2003
    Except, of course, it wasn't meant to kill him...

    If it wasn't, then that was the dumbest attempt at blackmail ever.
     
  13. Quiet_Mandalorian

    Quiet_Mandalorian Jedi Master star 5

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    Apr 19, 2005
    Well, I think it's safe to say anything capable of rending large chunks of matter into their constituent atoms could probably handle a Jedi fairly easily.;) How about more mundane, hand-held weapons?

    How much are you earning, exactly?:p

    Given that it provided exactly the result Jango seemed to be shooting for, I'd disagree.
     
  14. Halagad_Ventor

    Halagad_Ventor Star Wars Author - SWRPG Designer star 4 VIP

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    Jul 3, 2001
    This is a really cool thread.

    For the record, the first example of a Jedi slicing through Mandalorian iron with relative ease occured way back in Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith, when Exar Kun cuts his way into Freedon Nadd's tomb. The metal portions of Lumiya's lightwhip, shards of which go flying in her duels with Luke, also consists of Mandalorian Iron.

    Personally, I've often thought a sniper has the best shot insofar as conventional attacks go, though it's so premeditated that I have to imagine a Jedi would surely sense something is amiss in a heartbeat, and a good Jedi could easily sense the origin of the impending attack.

    But really, a good writer can basically make up any convenient condition (obviously without it appearing convenient) that would allow or disallow the possibility of successfully killing a Jedi. In the end, it's really a situation by situation deal.

    In a strictly logical universe, any Jedi can conceiveably emerge victorious against absolutely any non-Jedi attack, but a Jedi could also conceivably be killed by any non-Jedi attack. But while folks talk about the mechanics of gameplay, storytelling also has built-in mechanics, and the Star Wars saga has very specific ones. Because the Jedi are the archetypal heroes of Star Wars, the saga will always statistically favor Jedi valiancy over non-Jedi violence. Whenever it suits writers, from the movies to books to video games, the potential Jedi standard seems to be not only a shade shy of omnipotence, but omniscience as well, which essentially makes them always potentially impervious. Benefit of doubt seems to flow in the Force.

    Put another way, a non-Jedi can potentially defeat a Jedi sometimes, but a Jedi can potentially defeat a non-Jedi every time.
     
  15. Quiet_Mandalorian

    Quiet_Mandalorian Jedi Master star 5

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    Apr 19, 2005
    Glad you seem to like it.[face_thinking]

    For the record, it's rather explicitly noted that the tomb is constructed of Mandalorian iron to prevent Force-users from meddling with it, and that Kun only penetrates it with awesome power of the Dark Side (remember, this is back in the Star Destroyer-tossing, Super Nova-blasting era).

    As for Lumiya's whip, I can't say much about it one way or the other, never having read the comic, but given that in some of the images I've seen taken from it the thing appears to be nearly a kilometer in length and in defiance of gravity for extended periods of time, it's possible that other associated details would also fall into the realm of artistic license.

    IMHO, the craft of a good sniper is premeditated to the point where his intent would not even be discernable.

    What about non-Jedi valiancy against Jedi violence?

    Also, do story conventions really have a place in the discussion? Simply because no human being can ever manage to bring a gun to bear on a dinosaur in a Jurassic Park film doesn't mean that the creature would be unharmed if shot, which is in some ways comparable to the point of the discussion.

    To say that is to ignore the weight of evidence of both the films and most of the EU (barring the current "Superpower" phase that seems to have started with the DNT), which, on the whole seems to present the Jedi/Sith as being quite fallible/vulnerable to deception, confusion and/or sudden death.

    That would depend on the individul non-Jedi.

    And come to think of it, why does everyone keep saying "Jedi"? This is supposed to be about all Force-users, not just the Jedi Order.[face_thinking]
     
  16. Rogue_Follower

    Rogue_Follower Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 12, 2003
    Yes, Mandalorian Iron is lightsaber resistant, rather than lightsaber-proof. ;)

    Also of note is where Luke cuts off Vader's hand; its possible that the full protective Mando-armor covering didn't extend down that far. Or Luke got lucky and sliced through a seam or crack.
     
  17. Quiet_Mandalorian

    Quiet_Mandalorian Jedi Master star 5

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    Apr 19, 2005
    No defence is totally impervious to sustained attack.

    Exactly. It's likely that the armoured section only covers Vader's hand. Anything below the wrist (where Luke cut) appears to simply be leather.
     
  18. Halagad_Ventor

    Halagad_Ventor Star Wars Author - SWRPG Designer star 4 VIP

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    Jul 3, 2001
    The out-of-universe reflection was an aside, though parallels the in-universe answer I suggested. For clarity, I maintain my original assertion that a Jedi can conceivably be killed or subdued by a non-Jedi by essentially any means or weapon, not barring most examples I've seen here.

    The rhetoric here was short-hand for the general flavor of Star Wars I specified, which favors Jedi superiority in terms of their statistical treatment in stories, i.e. reverence and god-like. Of course, "Jedi valiancy" and "non-Jedi violence" are both always violence and both always valiant from sympathetic points of view, and, as I said, either side can conceivably take the day.

    Not really trying to put out anyone's fire. The suggestions here have been fun. The story conventions perspective was something that some folks might be interested in, but might not have considered, presented in a way that parallels something that most here have been exposed to, i.e. debates about the significance of gaming conventions.

    Right.

    Take care,
    Abel
     
  19. Quiet_Mandalorian

    Quiet_Mandalorian Jedi Master star 5

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    Apr 19, 2005
    Wait, Halagad_Ventor is Abel Pena?:oops:

    Okay.[face_thinking]

    I hope you don't mind my challenging that view. I've always seen them less as god-like beings and more as questing knights with some quasi-magical abilities, just from what I've read or seen. I mean, many of them have some impressive powers, but nothing that should really be put up on a godly level, in my humble opinion.

    Well, it was an interesting point to raise, I'll admit, though I'm not sure how the citation of gaming conventions might support it, considering that for the most part it seems that whenever a game comes up we've been arguing over what content could conceivably work in the films and what has to be tagged as mere gameplay mechanics.[face_thinking]

    Thanks for stopping by. Sorry about the mess...
     
  20. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 29, 2005
    Load up a Verp with [link=http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Baradium]baradium[/link] rounds. They should explode on contact with the blade, utterly vaporizing the Force-user. They could also be targeted as near misses into the ground underfoot, such that the Jedi wouldn't even bother to intercept them. Unlike a grenade, the baradium rounds would appear to be simple bullets and the Jedi wouldn't bother trying to Force-push them away (plus, they'd be moving far faster). The Jedi expects a simple slug, and gets a several-meter radius of complete vaporization. Just do it from fairly close range so they move to deflect instead of leap away. Only the godliest Halcyon would have a chance of surviving the destruction.
     
  21. Quiet_Mandalorian

    Quiet_Mandalorian Jedi Master star 5

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    Apr 19, 2005
    I think we need some kind of Ewok trophy for this one.:D
     
  22. Rogue_Follower

    Rogue_Follower Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 12, 2003
    Wouldn't work. Since baradium is dangerously unstable, the shock of being launched out of the gun would make the explosive detonate early, taking out the gun and the would-be assassin.

    You could try to stuff detonite or baradium inside a lightsaber, so that it blows up when ignited. But the Jedi's "danger sense" might prevent that from working too, if they're alert. [face_thinking]
     
  23. Quiet_Mandalorian

    Quiet_Mandalorian Jedi Master star 5

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    Apr 19, 2005
    Let's say "assailant". We're not necessarily planning an assassination scenario.

    As for the baradium, why wouldn't it work? It can apparently survive the shock of rocket ignition when used in missile warheads.

    I think you're giving the "danger sense" a little too much credence, but anyway, I've a different idea:

    Create a device that messes up the lightsaber's internal energy feedback loop, causing it to (hopefully) explode catastrophically and amupate a limb or two as in the case of Tenel Ka.
     
  24. Rogue_Follower

    Rogue_Follower Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 12, 2003
    Has it been used in missiles?

    Perhaps there are multiple forms of baradium, some more stable than others, since the EGtW&T says that the kind used in thermal detonators is "dangerously unstable, sometimes triggering a fusion reaction if the detonator is jarred or exposed to excessive heat." That could just be a hazardous side-effect of the detonator's method of setting-off the baradium, though. [face_thinking]
     
  25. Quiet_Mandalorian

    Quiet_Mandalorian Jedi Master star 5

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    Apr 19, 2005
    Yes, specifically in Star by Star, IIRC.

    It might, I suppose. Perhaps the specific detonator in question was one of the Class A type, which is apparently equivelent to a man-portable nuclear device, if SOTE is any indication.[face_thinking]
     
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