Oceania General Hypocracy Discussion

unlike ever other race and culture in this country.

Gath, name the races in this country that have had the honour of being targeted by genocide by the Australian government.

OK Contestants, are you ready?

If you said "The Aboriginals", you're an insipid fool who can't speak English.

The correct answer is: THE ABORIGINES.

So, remind me again why we shouldn't feel, I dunno, a smidgen of guilt until we reconcile the crimes of our past?

E_S

 

Oh, I'm sure there will be some sort of final solution Ender.

 

Why do you keep trying to feed us with this nonsense that the ABORIGINES are targeted for 'genocide'?

 

Because you can't ignore the past Gath.

 

I am not talking about events 200 years ago, I am referring to the realities of TODAY. I wish people would stop looking at the past, and start dealing with today's problems.

 

Gatherer, I'm talking about as little as 30 years ago. I'm talking about potentially having a disgruntled, disenfranchised and disaffected indigenous population - like the Palestinians, who were ignored for so long...

Since you wish to refute Genocide, I will explain this to you. Genocide is a jus cogen. A jus cogen, under customary international law, is a law above the state. Jus cogens are usually contained within UN resolutions; and they will always override the sovereign laws of the state.

Genocide, therefore, is legally defined under the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.

Let me quote to you from Article 2, and please pay close attention to Article 2(e).

Article 2

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Nonsense, you say? No, the only nonsense is trying to deny this.

E_S

 

Gath, until the past is dealt with, we cannot move on.

 

You don't think that the kids under the stolen generation were better off?

Hmm, going to school, learning to live in the society, learning the morals and ethics of working for a living,

OR,

Would you rather have them living under trees, receiving government money for doing nothing at not working, not going to school, and spending their government received money on alochol, cigarettes and pokies?

Granted, a generalisation, but a generalisation formed from what I see everday. Hmm... Ender, do you live in a city where the Aborigine community is at least 30%? Do you see this sort of stuff everyday?

Or, as I suspect, are you a textbook dogooder who has no concept on the realities of real life, someone who lives in a fanciful make believe world.

 

I'm sorry are you advocating Genocide?!?

E_S

 

I apologise if the last post seemed like a personal attack, but it is very frustrating when other people here deem that I am a racist, blah blah blah, and they quote all these nice text book writings, but they have not experienced the REALITY of the SUBJECT.

Again, I am not talking about the past, but the PRESENT.

Aboriginals, like EVERYONE else have FREE WILL.

Why aren't the HARD questions asked?

Such as:

* High % of alchoholism
* High % of people in jail
* High % of school truancy
* Receiving the dole without even trying to find work

Please answer these questions, then we can continue the discussion.

 

Gath, you're seeing it, yet your backward attitude isn't helping it.

 

I JUST can't understand you people.

It is like pointing to the Sky and pointing out that it is blue, yet you people would argue otherwise.

So you believe that the problems of the past effect the reality of the now?

That is just like saying my great-grandfather was conscripted to fight in World War I, so now I have to get drunk everyday.

What a load of rubbish.

People have their OWN FREE WILL. Yes, the society had problems caused by the white man in the past, but that doesn't give them an excuse not to try and LIVE.

 

Ender_Sai, I want to stop this line of discussion in this thread, as to not offend anyone further.

However, I would like to discuss this subject with you in a civil, thought-provoking manner. I am not set in my ways / thoughts, and willing to change... just stating what I have seen with my own eyes? Do you want to discuss via e-mail?

If so, mjpotts@ozemail.com.au

 

PoT's storytime

For today's HISTORY lesson (it's handy to know part b,c,d if you want to act as an authority on e Gath, so listen up to the REALITIES of the PRESENT where the SUBJECT of the MATTER is REAL and not just some FANCIFAL textbook STORY.)


How the Evil Aborigines were defeated and pious Australia saved.

A long time ago, dirty aborigines lived under trees and didn't know anything about morals or civility. They must of been really evil, because they didn't know God. These godless folk believed silly stories about snakes, and didn't wear many clothes which was obscene really.

The pious and intrepid explorers from His Majesty's Britain came to save the day, setting up a penal colony, deciding that with such evil savages roaming the land, it MUST be hell and thus fit for criminals.

They decided that they would have to pacify the local population. They tried intimidation, but found the means only served to dumbfound the aborigines who beyond a small amount of conflict between tribes in dense population areas, didn't know of deceit in the way we know it, and are masters of.

The invaders decided that to continue to move the black devils off their land wasn't the decent thing to do, and decided to buy the land off the aborigines. Going to the tribes who were now becoming used to White men and even crossed pathes occasionally near the penal colony's, they fed them a local ale, getting a lot of them drunk. The aborigines had no local variant of ethanol, so drink was a whole knew thing for them. They were unprepared, and seduced.

Lucky the White men were so smart! They managed to buy a lot of land at the time for a very cheap price: just a lot of alcohol and the occasional miscellenous tidbit.

Furthermore, the Black Devils society was on the brink of collapse. The Whites had shaken their social systems and beliefs, and the insidious force of Alcohol was having an effect in local tribes. Further out white man was still unknown, but the local tribes were collapsing.

Soon, drunk aborigines perhaps became too familar with the penal colonies. Anecdotal evidence abounds of women being "assaulted", which to the aborigine of the time was probably little more then a usual mating practice that was contrary to Victorian sensibilities.

In response, the proud men of New Australia began getting tough on the locals. It was THERE land now, and they'd do what they want with it.

Killings turned to slaughters, slaughters turned to a systematic hunt. Killing an aborigine was not illegal, and it was not surprising that some aboriginal tribes fought back, worsening their situation and cementing their "guilt".

Fast foward through development to the Gold Rush Era. The first signs of Aboriginal Rights are sniffed after the bloody slaughter of over 33 Aborigines. Some residents believed that murder was murder no matter the status of the target, but nothing more came of it. If you gave them the odd worthless piece of junk or some grog, they'd leave you alone and let you push them further out into uninhabited Australia.

Fast Foward further. The evil aborigine has had it's numbers savagely culled. Not many remain compared to yester-year. Those that do have lost a lot of their original culture. They live in shanty towns in the harshest desert, pushed out of their fertile and RIGHTFUL land, forced over territorial boundaries, COMPLETELY destroying their culture and defined ethos, mixing rules and tribes, causing intercine strife. Imagine killing most Europeans, then stuffing the rest of them into Spain. Things would go wrong, the French would complain, and the Germans would get angry.

Similarly, different tribes didn't co-exist well, but survival is a funny thing, and they continued to try. Alcohol was now an absolutely viscious beast that had addicted a great many, who had little to live for, their culture crushed, children killed, women sick. No wonder they hit the bottle hard, and often. No wonder alcoholism became a part of the culture in many places. No wonder crime is common. The age odl

 

The word Aboriginal is an adjective.

Aborigine is the noun

In all honestly I didn't know this. And I really don't appreciate being called an If you said "The Aboriginals", you're an insipid fool who can't speak English. You don't agree with my point of view then you have have right not too, and I accept that. Flaming me is something I'm not going to stand for. There are other names that I can call them if you like. When I was taught, I was taught that Aboriginals was the correct grammer. If it has changed since then I do apoligise. Since that is the way I learnt it I will continue to use it in my following post.

Exactly! White people live in poverty sometimes as well like that councillor in Frankston. Why can't they have WHITE person, or AUSTRALIAN (they mean the same thing I think) on a job application? It's not FAIR!

I never said I wanted a white person for the job. All I said was, if I advertised for a white only person I would get in alot of trouble. And you can't say with all honesty that I wouldn't.

Same! She said Asians would be flooding the country and stealing jobs. THat's not racist she's just saying it. Asians are our guests here in the white male christians country of Australia, they should have more respect. They are prepared to work harder and for less, and we can't let them do that. We need to protect OUR way of life which is a lot more relaxed and less hard working then they are prepared to do.

Hey, as I said she said things I didn't agree with. Asians do work harder, and I don't think I have ever seen an Asian at a Centerlink agency. However, she also did bring up some good arguments but she was immediately bashed around.

But as long as they pay for it themselves! If those smelly dirty immigrants want to live near MY farm, they better be able to look after themselves and not bludge off my tax dollar. I did the hard work whilst they just sat around in their little mud holes in their countries with the flies and poverty COMPLAINing about it. They never did any hard work or paid tax, so why should they get help from us.

I was unaware that she said that the immigrants had to pay for it. If it that was true then the Government should pay for it. Immigration is important to this country.

Exactly! REAL Australians (not immigrants) are all Christians. Even all those Chinese gold diggers (who aren't Australian anyway.) They should respect OUR beliefs and learn nothing but christianity and burn their own religious scriptures. We don't want them preaching alternatives to our kids, or they may become educated. omg ph34r!!1

Did you not read what I said? I said we shouldn't enforce our beliefs on them, but I don't think we should stop teaching them to our children. We learnt about other religions when I was at school, so why should we abondon our beliefs?

I reckon we should get all their children and give them to good White Christian parents to care for. It's not the kids fault that they are black, and that their parents are evil doers who would break into a building and get shot just to make a good AUSTRALIAN look bad. We can help these inferior people become better by teaching them good Catholic values in a white home away from their evil bludger parents.

As far as I am concerned if a parent is a bad parent, whether they are black or white, their kids need to be given extra care. If 3 white guys committed this crime and got the same results I would still be furious.

say go one further. Why not treat us better, considering it's our country and we are willing to work hard and not sniff petrol? That's true, even if peoples wants to say Iam a racisms.

Well, you have just proved the point of my post. You can disagree with my argument, but don't call me a rascist.

Yeah, I say award help on merit, not on skin color. Give help to like, people in poverty and stuff, not just aboriginals...hold on....

Yes everybody gets welfare, but let me tell you a story. I went to do a TAFE course with two guys. One was Ab

 

Just as a final point:

It's fairly safe to assume that the occurrences of yesterday have an effect on what happens today. The Stolen Generation was, as E_S pointed out, an act of genocide, and it affects the mindset of the Aboriginal population today because so many of them experienced it. Had they been respected as a culture and left alone, they would have gone down a similar path to the Maoris, who suffer from few of the same problems that the Aborigines do.

I've seen what you talk about, Gath, and I agree that Aborigines who spend their money on alcohol can go out and get jobs, etc. We give them welfare and such, this is true, but what we don't give them is full access to a good education, one of the most important keys to being able to do something with your life. Give them a good education and you give them the confidence and ability to get a job and earn more than their welfare gives them.


Edit: TAW...PoT's post was laced with near-fatal amounts of sarcasm. Take anything he says with a truckload of salt.

 

If by your logic Gath, we should ignore the past and expect them to simply get up and assimilate to the life we so graciously allow them to eek out after smashing everything they hold dear, then our society is in greater moral peril then I previously imagined.

Their culture is still alive. There are many tribes that live in the outback. These people have tried to keep away from our influence and I have a tremendous amount of respect for them. I don't think we should forget what happened to them. However the past has happened, sooking and crying about it isn't going to make up past mistakes. What we can do is look to the future. I don't think we should enforce our beliefs or our culture on them. We can help them rebuild their society, but we have to ask THEM what they want. I had the pleasure of speaking with some elders a few years back. They don't want houses given to them, they don't want half of the stuff our goverment gives them. They asked for some land so they could roam and live on, and they asked for medical supplies. There is no reason why our two cultures can't live together, what we must do is leave them alone. Let them create their own path, but assist then in doing in anyway we can.

 

Edit: TAW...PoT's post was laced with near-fatal amounts of sarcasm. Take anything he says with a truckload of salt.

Thanks, I find it hard to detect sarcasm on message boards so I just treat it like an insult and try and set the records straight without seeming rude incase I was wrong.

 

* High % of alchoholism
* High % of people in jail
* High % of school truancy
* Receiving the dole without even trying to find work

You forgot the high percentage rate of clumsiness. I can't believe how stupid those Aborigines are, to keep slipping in the shower and receiving multiple fractures to the head and upper body. Plus, they keep committing suicide in jail. Even, strangely, people who've had fractured wrists, a testament to their stubborness that they can still forge a noose.

Luckily, we had a Federal inquiry into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody to waste the Aussie Battler's taxpaying dollars.

Genocide? Pffft. I mean, we could quote Adolf here - "After all, who today speaks of the slaughter of the Armenians" could be ameneded to say Aborigines instead of Armenians (another forgotten people).

I mean, heaven forbid we'd openly admit that we tried to destroy their entire race. Instead, we throw in this BS rationalisation - hypocrisy, of a sort, Gath - that says "Oh, but we meant them well." Yeah, and **** that for a joke - you heard the old saying, "The road to hell is paved with the bricks of good intention"?

Good.

Gath, one more time, in colour and bold:

THE NOUN IS ABORIGINE, THE ADJECTIVE IS ABORIGINAL. It's borderline racist to continue calling them "Aboriginals" when it's been corrected at least 5 times by me.

They have poor health because of us. They have no future - because of us. They are discriminated against in education and employment - because of us. They have had their culture decimated because of us. WE HAVE VISITED A GENOCIDE UPON THEM, WHICH PUTS US IN THE SAME LEAGUE AS SUCH LUMINARIES AS TURKEY AND NAZI GERMANY, TO NAME BUT A FEW.

And you say it's the past? Gath, we ignore this, it's our goddam future. We have every reason to feel guilty because the mistreatment of the Aboriginal people of Australia is still continuing. Unlike the disaffected black population of America, or the Palestinians in Israel, we have an opportunity to correct this. But because the majority of whites are racist in their thought - preferenced, of course, with "I'm not racist but..." - we instead chose to sweep it under the rug. It's like Mark Twain said; there's nothing more amusing than white men thinking whites are any less savage than all the other savage races out there.

I remember the outrage when Charlie Perkins said that Sydney should burn during the Olympics. And yet, we look at EVERY disaffected group in history - e.g the Palestinians - and the more we marginalise them the more likely they are to embrace violence as a recourse to inequalities. I'm willing to be that you'll be one of the people who'd be horrified if they did indeed resort to violence to achieve basic human rights, and you'd probably say they are ungreatful for everything we've given them.

It's good to know the average white man is so damn predictable down to a "T".

Racism sux.

E_S

 

We give them welfare and such, this is true, but what we don't give them is full access to a good education

We DO give them access to a good education, however, they make the choice not to turn about. I know a teacher that used to teach in Alice Springs. Plus I have seen - when it is not school holidays, you see hundreds of ABORIGINE youths wandering around, the shopping centers, etc... why are they not in school?

 

They have poor health because of us. They have no future - because of us. They are discriminated against in education and employment - because of us.

Come on. You cannot be serious. They have poor health because of us? Can you please give me reasons why this is our fault? People are responsible for their own actions and people need to relise this rather than throwing blame somewhere else. I am not going to deny that we have almost wiped out their culture, I am not going to deny that we rounded them up and slaughtered them. However, we are no longer doing this, and they have the same access to supplies and medical help we have.

Again, how are they discriminated against in education? They get everything paid for.

There is discrimination in the employment sector. But what can we do about this? Creating jobs for Aboriginals only just divides the population again. Time is the only thing that can sort this out. Look how far we've come in the last 30 years. Better awareness of the situation and a better understanding have all helped.

Ender, there is a town in SA called Port Augusta. If you really want to see what happens when Aborginals are given everything and without any responsiblity then I suggest you go there. It will open your eyes. You might start to understand where The Gatherer and I are coming from.

 

I drove through Port Augusta on the way to Darwin...

Poor health because of us? Oh come ON! They make thier own decisions on personal basic hygene. They don't even wash. I stopped at a town called Elliot on the way up to Darwin, an ABORIGINE came into the store / petrol station to get some meat pies and coke (paid on credit, um should say, we paid for it, because the government paid for it).

I am not joking, I am being completely serious... as I walked out of the store, I had to hold my breath, otherwise I would have most likely thrown up because of the stench.

Don't tell me that it is OUR fault due to their poor health... if they could just manage basic personal hygene then this would fix most of their health problems.

 

The_Anakin_Wannabe, isn't it amusing that the people on the other side of the argument have never been to such places as Port Augusta, Alice Springs, Tennent Creek, Katherine, Darwin, etc... They have never experienced such things in the first person. Loungeroom critics...

 

Did it ever occur to you that you might smell equally offensive to the black man as he did to you?

 

The_Anakin_Wannabe, isn't it amusing that the people on the other side of the argument have never been to such places as Port Augusta, Alice Springs, Tennent Creek, Katherine, Darwin, etc... They have never experienced such things in the first person. Loungeroom critics...

I think that is an important point. I have been to Port Augusta, and I have seen what happens there. And it is a shame, but they have made their own choice to behave like this, and that is why I have the views that I have. I have also met a couple of really good, nice, and respectable AborigINES. One of which came from area's like Port Augusta and he's made something of himself. He hates the way his race is acting. He has gone out and done something with his life. He started out a business. When the government approached him for a job and he found out the only reason he got the job was because he was black, he turned it down. He is constantly called a rascist by his people because he believes he should be treated the same as everybody else. And I have to go because my power is about to cut off for some reason. Be back later.