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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit General post NJO Discussion thread.

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Darth Invictus, May 5, 2021.

  1. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 14, 2006
    Judging from what I know of Garm Bel Iblis (who is no longer Mon Mothma's nemesis since they buried the hatchet two years ago when he realised how wrong he was about her and her motives -- he should've replaced Mon instead of Leia really), it doesn't make sense. I think KJA just slapped his name to a character to say such words, maybe a former Imperial Senate delegate like Hrekin Thorm of Fedalle?
     
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  2. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord 26X Wacky Wednesday/23x Hangman Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

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    Mon Mothma, Bel Iblis, and Leia are all former Imperial Senate members - it's just that they turned Rebel.

    It's not till A New Rebellion that the New Republic makes a point of allowing in former Imperials who never rejected the Empire.
     
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  3. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 14, 2006
    Still not in their nature to want a superweapon. I think we found a discrepancy. Unless Bel Iblis lost a lot to the Clone Emperor's forces during the 10-11 ABY that suddenly made him unlikeable.
     
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  4. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord 26X Wacky Wednesday/23x Hangman Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

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    I think the idea is that his more military background - often "General Bel Iblis" whereas Mon Mothma is never "Supreme Commander Mon Mothma" - made him a good candidate for harsh pragmatism in KJA's eyes.

    He probably "headcanoned" that part of the reason for Bel Iblis breaking off to form his own Rebel faction in the first place was that he was more ruthless than she was - kind of like the dynamic between Saw and Mon in the newcanon.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2024
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  5. AusStig

    AusStig Force Ghost star 5

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    Feb 3, 2010
    You have not included them launching Ties sent to attack him. And since when does revenge make it a terrorist act? The head of the Carida government was also a terrorist for attempting to assassinate Mon and his attack on Anakin, yes it was not know at the time, but we can examine things in the fullness of facts (and at his trial afterwards this would play on peoples minds).

    I also think some people in the NR would be quietly happy to have their enemies think EXCATLY that (he also took out other military targets before and after), after this I think a number of imp hold outs surrendered, the NR gets to have it's cake and eat it too.

    But ok maybe he is crazy due to extreme emotional distress and Exar Kuns manipulation . He still contacted them and gave them a warning and dealt directly with the head of government unlike the Death Star. I also don't think they were civilian due to the military nature of Caridas government and format and if the aliens were aligned with them, then they are enemy combatants too.

    Do you think the allied ww2 area bombing campaign was as bad as genocide? that is how I view Kyps actions, not good, but not nearly as evil as the Empire.
     
  6. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord 26X Wacky Wednesday/23x Hangman Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

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    Sure I did.


     
  7. AusStig

    AusStig Force Ghost star 5

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    Feb 3, 2010
    Oh sorry missed that.

    So then wait how is reacting to an attack on you "terroristic"? By that logic anyone who defends themselves is a terrorist.
     
  8. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord 26X Wacky Wednesday/23x Hangman Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

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    The destruction of an entire planet as a response to an attack on one person - especially in conjunction with the "making demands" bit before that.

    Add in that Kyp is not a member of any military, and Furgan's "We do not negotiate with terrorists" line feels especially on-target.
     
  9. AusStig

    AusStig Force Ghost star 5

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    Feb 3, 2010
    ALL military (and most police) actions make demands, if force is not used it will be used.

    The Empire is a terrorist regime. They have no morality, this leader tried to assassinate mon. To me it is sowing the wind, and reaping the whirlwind.
     
  10. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord 26X Wacky Wednesday/23x Hangman Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

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    And to the average citizen of the galaxy, it's a mass murder. I think Fen's reaction in Simple Tricks sums it it pretty well.

    "In my arrogance I thought the ends justified the means." Zeth's voice dropped to a whisper. "My brother and many others paid the price for my fall to the dark side."
    Fen gasped as the pieces began to fall into place. The wild rumors she had heard, the things he had said. When the answer finally popped into her consciousness, she'd never be sure if she deduced it herself or if he had planted it there. "Carida," she breathed. Millions dead, billions, an entire star system wiped out of existence.
    She swerved the speeder to the side, slamming on the brakes as her mind screamed again. "Carida!" Aghast, she turned to see the Jedi staring out the window, fighting the tears clinging to his lashes. He nodded ever so slightly.
    She was sharing a landspeeder, her life, with the most notorious mass murderer since Palpatine. This innocent looking man, this kid, was another Vader. A butcher. He killed billions.
    Suddenly claustrophobic in the close speeder. Fen fumbled for an escape.
    A cool breeze flooded in as she shoved the hatch open. Fen staggered across the road, feeling the universe buckle under her feet. Billions dead. And she liked him. That was the worst of it. She had fallen completely for his wide-eyed innocence, the shy smile.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2024
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  11. AusStig

    AusStig Force Ghost star 5

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    Feb 3, 2010
    I disagree.

    And if that is true it shows that the Star Wars galaxy is full of evil scum who morn murders while caring not one wit for the victims. Does explain why the Sith keep coming back and the Jedi keep getting mistrusted.

    It was a form of justice visted on an unjust and evil government. Sad it brought "innocents" down with it, but that happens.
     
  12. DarthYan

    DarthYan Jedi Master star 2

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    Jun 17, 2009
    Again, most of a species was exterminated in the process, and he did so as revenge for what happened to his brother. The wiki states the only Caridans who survived were offworld traders. He knew that most of the people who died would be innocent (especially since he didn't actually stop the higher ups from evacuating).

    It was a crime, and later writers were ENTIRELY justified in raking Kyp over the coals for it. The fact that he tried to be better is a good thing; but no he did act VERY similar to what the Empire did.
     
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  13. DarthYan

    DarthYan Jedi Master star 2

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    Jun 17, 2009
    You sound like one of the people who would justify the mass rapes carried out by Soviet troops against Germans. It's pretty much the same justification.
     
  14. DarthYan

    DarthYan Jedi Master star 2

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    Jun 17, 2009
    By that logic the IDF aren't being terrorists for intentionally attacking civilians in the current war. October 7th being an atrocity doesn't change that the IDF DELIBERATELY targets civillians out of sadism, and that the "human shields" myth is a lie.

    Kyp knew they couldn't hurt him. He not only blew up a planet, he let most of the war criminals escape, ensuring that most of the people who died were civillians.

    You're basically making excuses to avoid admitting that Anderson dropped the ball.
     
  15. AusStig

    AusStig Force Ghost star 5

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    Feb 3, 2010
    Later writers only hated that Imperials died, if it had been the Empire murdering a planet (like Alderaan, or Calmas ), those same (and smilar) writers would ignore or downplay the event. As happens in HoT, when the massacre carried out by imperials, no one cares about them.

    Again the people are not innocent, they are working directly for the government that attacked him.

    he didn't stop ANYONE from evacuating, that the government choose to save itself was beyond his control, at the time he was trying to save someone.

    Nope. I am taking about Area bombing and the atom bombings, and the people who go on and on about those while ignoring the crimes of the axis.
    Which is closer to what Kyp did than rape. Rape is wrong, whether done by allied forces, soviets, Nazis, Japanese or any other.

    Hence why I keep saying "sowing the wind and reaping the whirlwind" a quote from Churchill about bombing Germany.

    Israel seems to be an issue of some distress for you, so I will not engage with that, no one comes on here to be upset.

    I am using the same logic that Ukraine is allowed to attack oil facilities (and cities) in Russia, in response to the invasion. The same logic that says the allies can bomb Germany cities like the Germans bombed UK ones.

    Kyp DIDN'T know he couldn't be hurt, he didn't let people escape he was busy trying to save some one. There were few if any civilians on the planet.

    No he didn't. he created an interesting story with complex issues and a hurt person trying to do 'good' through bad. Kyp is not evil, yet other writers who are happy to write the empire as "good" hate him for it.

    Killing diehard terrorists space fascists, is good. That some people got caught in the crossfire is sad but it is not evil, the government made the choice to attack him and as always happens people pay the price for their government's actions.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2024
  16. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord 26X Wacky Wednesday/23x Hangman Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Even if you restrict yourself to KJA, you have sympathetic characters, like Rebel General Dodonna, comparing Kyp's actions to the Empire's.


    General Rieekan spoke in his gruff voice, looking at Han with weary eyes. Rieekan had been the commander of Echo Base on Hoth, and he had seen many hard times. "Our scouts have just come back, General Solo. Your friend did use the Sun Crusher again. He destroyed the Caridan star system, site of the Imperial military academy."
    Han felt his throat go dry, though the news was no great surprise, considering how much Kyp hated the Empire.
    "This slaughter must stop. It goes beyond even the Emperor's atrocities," the aging tactician, General Jan Dodonna, said. "The New Republic does not employ such barbarous tactics."
    "Well, he does!" interrupted Garm Bel—Iblis. "And he has obliterated two crucial Imperial targets. While we may not agree with Durron's methods, his success rate is nothing short of astonishing."
    Mon Mothma interrupted, somehow finding the energy to speak a harsh sentence. "I will not allow this young man to be portrayed ... as a war hero." She paused for a deep breath and raised her clenched hand to signal that she had not yet finished. "His personal crusade must stop. General Solo, can you halt Kyp Durron?"
     
  17. DarthYan

    DarthYan Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 17, 2009
    1.) Even Anderson makes clear that a lot of innocents were on the planet. There’s also the entire species getting wiped out bar a few off worlders.

    You’re basically lying at this point.

    2.) Kyp previously plowed the sun crusher through a star destroyer bridge without dying. He also survived the cauldron nebula going boom. He knew he wouldn’t be hurt. Moreover most higher ups got off world quickly. Again, it wasn’t just a few civillians.

    You sound like an IDF spokesman

    3.) And no Camaas is still painted as an atrocity in universe. The Bothan team were the only ones still active. Palpatine and the other leaders who greenlit it were long dead and the IR itself was a pathetic rump state at this point.

    4.) Anderson said he wanted Kyp to fall to give Luke a failure. It’s pretty clear even he wanted Carida to be an unjustifiable act. If you insist on the analogy of “attacking oil platforms in Russia or factories in Germany” what Kyp did was the equivelant of dropping an a bomb and also wiping out 1000 miles around it.

    It’s like how even if Bail Organa was technically guilty of sedition the destruction of Alderaan was murderous overkill.

    Zahn and other writers rightly realized that Kyp was let off the hook for killing a lot of innocent people and commented on it. Most of the people weren’t space fascists despite you pretending otherwise.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2024
  18. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord 26X Wacky Wednesday/23x Hangman Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

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    Zahn doesn't mention Kyp's pardoning much as far as I'm aware.

    The idea in various tie-in media does seem to be that the proportion of the Caridan population directly involved in the academy is small.
    Page 45 of Soldier for the Empire:
    The Imperial Military Training Base on Carida was home to more than one hundred and fifty thousand recruits, cadets, and instructors. The Military Academy, also known as Cliffside due to the drop-off along the east side of the parade ground, took up less than one tenth of the sprawling base, but produced a high percentage of the Empire's officer corps.


    The most recent source for Carida's population being 25 million of which 75% were native Caridans was the WOTC article Carida: Heavy Duty:

    https://web.archive.org/web/2009060...ault.asp?x=starwars/article/sw20030904carida1

    Though Carida, like Alderaan, eventually became one of the few worlds actually destroyed outright by one of the Emperor's superweapons (albeit at the hands of a disturbed Jedi apprentice), the planet maintained a peaceful existence within the Republic for thousands of years. A high gravity world populated by an intelligent species with a thriving mercantile economy, Carida exported little to the rest of the galaxy but raw minerals and a few local food stuffs, and the rest of the galaxy rarely stopped by longer than it took to load a freighter.

    Two centuries before Palpatine's rise, the Republic Senate passed legislation mandating a central academy for centralized training of the many separate planetary defense forces that kept security on most worlds. The Caridans were happy to oblige the Republic with vast acreage upon which to build the new academy, which soon began turning out graduates that raised the quality of defense forces throughout the Republic. The planet's heavier-than-normal gravity provided the perfect crucible for trainees, who emerged from the new Republic Defense Academy stronger and far more experienced in all forms of combat, crowd control, and survival.

    Once the galaxy erupted into full-scale chaos, first with the Clone Wars and then the Rebellion conflict, the Empire formally took control of the Carida academy. The rechristened Imperial Military Academy soon began churning out battle-hardened troops to replenish the voracious Imperial war machine.

    Planet: Carida
    Planet Type: Terrestrial
    Climate: Temperate
    Terrain: Forest, desert, glacier
    Atmosphere: Breathable
    Gravity: Heavy (1.98 Standard)
    Diameter: 18,324 km
    Length of Day: 25 standard hours
    Length of Year: 357 local days
    Sentient Species: Caridans, Humans
    Language: Caridan, Basic
    Population: 25 million
    Species Mix: 75% Caridan, 23% Human, 2% droids
    Government: Council of Merchants/Military administration



    but I believe they got a lot of their data from the published book The Essential Guide To Planets and Moons.


    It's worth remembering that this is, at least at the time, a civil war, not a war against an external enemy. The Caridans were part of the Old Republic (as was the Academy), and, to the New Republic, all Imperial citizens are "rightfully" Republic members that happen to be living under renegade governments.

    That's why in, for example, Wanted by Cracken, the New Republic has no problem levelling treason charges against unrepentant captured Imperials - to them, the Empire was never a legitimate state, but only a "criminal takeover of the Old Republic"

    So they attempt to convince Imperial worlds to return to the Republic fold - and free their citizens from criminal Imperial domination.
    So, to Mon Mothma, the destruction of Carida means the loss of a bunch of former Old Republic, rightfully New Republic, citizens who had nothing to do with the crimes of their Imperial masters.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2024
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  19. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2006
    Pity NJO Kyp was never written at all as still feeling some kind of guilt for Carida and seeking to atone, instead going after smugglers and causing general havoc for Niuk Niuv and Fyor Rodan to complain directly to Luke Skywalker. Then actively attacking a civilian worldship that would kill many Yuuzhan Vong civilians (not that I have much sympathy for the Vong after their warrior caste, priest caste and leadership committed atrocities themselves and really only got away with it because Zonama Sekot was pulled out as a get-out-of-jail free card). Then suddenly find himself in Jaina Solo's growing harem of attractive men.

    Then again, Daala got made the GA CoS in 41 ABY, ignoring what she did to Khomm, Mon Calamari, the Eol Sha colonists etc etc etc.
     
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  20. AusStig

    AusStig Force Ghost star 5

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    Feb 3, 2010
    That's bs, given Operation Shadowhand, when the Empire destroyed multiple planets/moons happened MONTHS ago https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Operation_Shadow_Hand

    I do not appreciate the personal attacks I have tried to treat you with respect, I would hope I should get the same.

    3. No it isn't. The Empire, the people who did it, who fired the shoots (most likely) are still around, yet no one cares.

    4. yes, that is how area bombing works, it's not nice. This isn't 'good', but it isn't the act of a monster that is unforgivable. It's tragedy but one that the Empire caused, one could argue it's a mistake. And it is over kill and people did get caught in the crossfire, I have always said that.

    The Empire never spoke to Bail about that and Bail never sends anything to attack the Death Star, Caridia did. Also Tarkin makes it clear Alderaan is NOT a legitimate target

    Page 45 of Soldier for the Empire:
    The Imperial Military Training Base on Carida was home to more than one hundred and fifty thousand recruits, cadets, and instructors. The Military Academy, also known as Cliffside due to the drop-off along the east side of the parade ground, took up less than one tenth of the sprawling base, but produced a high percentage of the Empire's officer corps.


    The most recent source for Carida's population being 25 million of which 75% were native Caridas was the WOTC article Carida: Heavy Duty:

    https://web.archive.org/web/2009060...ault.asp?x=starwars/article/sw20030904carida1

    Though Carida, like Alderaan, eventually became one of the few worlds actually destroyed outright by one of the Emperor's superweapons (albeit at the hands of a disturbed Jedi apprentice), the planet maintained a peaceful existence within the Republic for thousands of years. A high gravity world populated by an intelligent species with a thriving mercantile economy, Carida exported little to the rest of the galaxy but raw minerals and a few local food stuffs, and the rest of the galaxy rarely stopped by longer than it took to load a freighter.

    Two centuries before Palpatine's rise, the Republic Senate passed legislation mandating a central academy for centralized training of the many separate planetary defense forces that kept security on most worlds. The Caridans were happy to oblige the Republic with vast acreage upon which to build the new academy, which soon began turning out graduates that raised the quality of defense forces throughout the Republic. The planet's heavier-than-normal gravity provided the perfect crucible for trainees, who emerged from the new Republic Defense Academy stronger and far more experienced in all forms of combat, crowd control, and survival.

    Once the galaxy erupted into full-scale chaos, first with the Clone Wars and then the Rebellion conflict, the Empire formally took control of the Carida academy. The rechristened Imperial Military Academy soon began churning out battle-hardened troops to replenish the voracious Imperial war machine.

    Planet: Carida
    Planet Type: Terrestrial
    Climate: Temperate
    Terrain: Forest, desert, glacier
    Atmosphere: Breathable
    Gravity: Heavy (1.98 Standard)
    Diameter: 18,324 km
    Length of Day: 25 standard hours
    Length of Year: 357 local days
    Sentient Species: Caridans, Humans
    Language: Caridan, Basic
    Population: 25 million
    Species Mix: 75% Caridan, 23% Human, 2% droids
    Government: Council of Merchants/Military administration



    but I believe they got a lot of their data from the published book The Essential Guide To Planets and Moons.



    It's worth remembering that this is, at least at the time, a civil war, not a war against an external enemy. The Caridans were part of the Old Republic (as was the Academy), and, to the New Republic, all Imperial citizens are "rightfully" Republic members that happen to be living under renegade governments.

    That's why in, for example, Wanted by Cracken, the New Republic has no problem levelling treason charges against unrepentant captured Imperials - to them, the Empire was never a legitimate state, but only a "criminal takeover of the Old Republic"

    So they attempt to convince Imperial worlds to return to the Republic fold - and free their citizens from criminal Imperial domination.
    So, to Mon Mothma, the destruction of Carida means the loss of a bunch of former Old Republic, rightfully New Republic, citizens who had nothing to do with the crimes of their Imperial masters.[/QUOTE]

    That happens all the time, people suffer for the actions of their governments, like the Axis in ww2. Most of the people who suffered under the Empire were also innoccent, people like Kyp an his family. Yet no one cares about them, as soon as someone turns around and gives them a taste of their own medicine they are treated as WORSE.

    Kyp feels bad for the people he killed, it's a lot. But he didn't start it, the Empire did, they shot first.

    This government, which the people support evidently, is still loyal to the Empire, still loyal to idea that the murder of planets is ok, so why not apply it to them?

    Also if the academy is the key thing of Caridia (which all indications say it is), then those numbers are a joke, and given that the academy was running the planet at the time, that means either; 1, the numbers are wrong
    or
    2, the people support them and the Empire.

    So it could a planet of Imperial diehards, or the numbers are wrong?

    Also this doesn't have much to do with the thread topic. I am happy to leave it (since people are getting upset by this)
     
  21. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord 26X Wacky Wednesday/23x Hangman Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

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    Sep 2, 2012
    The worldship itself was empty - the idea was that the civilians weren't killed, but would die if the Vong didn't redistribute resources to them, because the place that they were going to live in was gone.
    It never destroyed any stars during Operation Shadow Hand, though.

    It's not a military base, but it is contributing to the rebellion's military strength. Vader also says Leia was lying about some things regarding Alderaan:

    ANH novel:
    Vader: "The defense systems on Alderaan, despite the Senator's protestations to the contrary, were as strong as any in the Empire. I should conclude that our demonstration was as impressive as it was thorough."

    Tarkin: "The Senate is being informed of our action at this very moment. Soon we will be able to announce the extermination of the Alliance itself, as soon as we have dealt with their main military base. Now that their main source of munitions, Alderaan, has been eliminated, the rest of those systems with secessionist inclinations will fall in line quickly enough, you'll see."
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2024
  22. AusStig

    AusStig Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2010
    If suns were the issue then people would be harping on about the other targets Kyp hit.

    Tarkin: "Would you prefer another target? A military target? Then name the system.


    Those quotes from Tarkin sound like justifications post fact, since before he destroys the planet he makes it clear it would not be considered a military target. Also those "defences" Vader refers to could be referring to a shield, not weapons.

    Just to further my point about the numbers fro Caridia. 25 million is about the Population of Australia and 75,000 is the total current teacher and student pool for 1 univeristy in one city. While Unis are a part of the Aus economy you could not call it the main factor in the nation (that would be mining/farming or services), so the numbers for Caridia, are just purely wrong, maybe they missed a couple decimal places.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2024
  23. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord 26X Wacky Wednesday/23x Hangman Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Him and Vader are talking to each other, alone, not to the public media.
     
  24. AusStig

    AusStig Force Ghost star 5

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    Feb 3, 2010
    Tarkin would still need to justify it, even to himself and Vader, his actions had to be 'right' any other outcome is unacceptable.

    Also does he offer any PROOF that Alderaan is supplying ammunition.
     
  25. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord 26X Wacky Wednesday/23x Hangman Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

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    I can believe that this is just the best known base and that there are many slightly smaller bases of this kind. Also I could believe that the 25 million figure represents the resident population rather than the transient population, and the actual number of people (including every stormtrooper in every stage of training) is much higher - perhaps enough to justify the "billions" figure that is often thrown around as the death toll.

    So it might be a case of "yes, billions died, but only 25 million or so could be called civilians or innocents in any meaningful sense of the word".
     
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