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The Mandalorian Ahsoka Grand Admiral Thrawn

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV- Current and Future Shows' started by Jedi Knight Fett, Nov 27, 2020.

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Will Thrawn show up in the Mandalorian?

  1. Yes

    82 vote(s)
    65.6%
  2. No

    43 vote(s)
    34.4%
  1. The Regular Mustache

    The Regular Mustache Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
    Thrawn: Eliminate the space whales with extreme prejudice!

    All the whales escape.

    Thrawn: Everything is going to plan!

    EDIT: Joking aside, as I've said before I have a feeling that Thrawn is NOT going to start a full scale war against the New Republic. He might not even come in contact with the NR at all. Dude's probably going to be on Dathomir for all or most of the time and all the heroes will go to him. The whole Thrawn story will happen in a vacuum so as to not seemingly retcon anything leading up to the ST.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2023
  2. DannyD

    DannyD Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2017
    Lol.

    [​IMG]

    He's got the style. Even some blue.

    I reckon Thrawn will rally the Imperial Remnant, including those elements in the NR, but they are mostly all defeated (in the proposed Filoni film). As in the HTTE books, Thrawn is killed by someone close to him (he can't be outmaneouvred surely!).

    The NR then believes they have finally gotten rid of the Empire. The Emperor, its enforcers, the witches, the Sith Lords and its warlords. The First Order is not seen as a threat.

    But...the NR hasn't defeated every ex-Imperial. Brendol Hux (?) or others that remain in hiding become the First Order and build Starkiller while Project Necromancer grows Snoke.

    I don't know enough to speculate on the Final Order's fleet creation, General Pryde, and the fleet of planet-'sploding star destroyers. But I do wonder if Thrawn has something to do with the idea. At the same time, Snoke is working on young Kylo.
     
  3. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    I like seeing Thrawn observe the Nightsister ritual. No doubt, he pays close attention to everything they do and records it all in his mind. Someday, he'll need to exploit their weaknesses.
     
    Bibliora likes this.
  4. DannyD

    DannyD Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2017
    Just on case no-one has said this...

    Can I say how badass it was for Thrawn to quietly say "Long live the Empire" - taunting and victorious - and then depart in a cool superfast, classic ship, leaving the good guys sucking on cosmic dust and fumes.
     
  5. Jolee Bindo

    Jolee Bindo Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2016
    I think my overall thoughts on how Thrawn was handled in this show are that it wasn't a success.

    Mikkelsen's acting was excellent and I enjoyed his dialogue/language on an aesthetic level.

    However, the writing didn't sell him as the intimidating evil genius we're meant to think he is. Filoni couldn't come up with a scenario where he convincingly outthinks our heroes - it's just several scenes of him standing over a holotable and claiming that setbacks are actually victories. Because of that the writing relies on us being impressed by or afraid of Thrawn for the sole reason that other characters are.

    This kind of Holmesian character is always tricky to write of course, because the writer needs to be almost as clever as the character is purported to be - but that means that you simply shouldn't use such a character if you're unable to properly convey their genius.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2023
  6. Darth_Accipiter

    Darth_Accipiter Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 2, 2015
    I think they were severely limited on run time to show Thrawn as a truly intimidating military mastermind. All they showcased was him stalling. He wasn't exactly facing a large military force either. Maybe next season or in Filoni's movie.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2023
    Darth Dnej likes this.
  7. SyndicThrass

    SyndicThrass Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 25, 2016
    The limited setting and lack of resources makes it somewhat forgivable, but I think the problem wasn’t so much Thrawn himself but how Filoni wrote the heroes. They basically just bulldozed through everything to the point where it made them feel unbeatable.
     
  8. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    This wasn’t a problem with rebels. Thrawn won in season 3 the only thing that really beat Thrawn was admiral Constantine’s incompetence and space whales.
     
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  9. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    Again, I think the thing is that Filoni doesn’t write military fiction but rather set-piece action scenes, and since he’s not going to let tactics interfere with the visuals or narrative arc of the conflict he wants, he tends to then make Thrawn’s “genius” be more that Thrawn is genre savvy enough to counter the action sequence plans of the heroes, but who’s only semi-realistic military skill is strong logistical knowledge.

    I would argue that Thrawn in the books actually *is* something of a tactical showman, and that showmanship is still key to the character’s portrayal - it’s just that Filoni’s showmanship style doesn’t do tactics, but performances, monologues, and spectacle, so Thrawn’s brilliance is downplayed compared to being simply more aware than other characters.

    I mean, nothing in the Favreau or Filoni shows has followed consistent military tactics unless they happened to coincidentally align with a cool stunt sequence concept. It’s still fun, but the lack of forethought to it does put Thrawn in a position where the writing has to compensate by giving Lars great monologues to deliver, and just try to coach everything as coming up Thrawn even when it doesn’t quite look like that.
     
    DannyD likes this.
  10. SyndicThrass

    SyndicThrass Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 25, 2016
    I have some hope that once the narrative shifts into more conventional space battles we might see some more of Thrawn’s effectiveness demonstrated there. Filoni used the Marg Sabl once before on screen, during TCW, it might be something that gets used again closer to its original placement.
     
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  11. Reepicheep775

    Reepicheep775 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 27, 2019
    The interesting thing about Zahn and Filoni is that each of their respective strengths is the other's weakness. Zahn is great at writing highly competent military professionals thinking their way through problems and achieving results. Thrawn and Mara are excellent characters, and Zahn writes them wonderfully when they are out doing their jobs, but they are both characters that play to his strengths. Where he struggles imo is writing characters who aren't no nonsense professionals, and his writing overall can be cold. That's fine for the books he writes, but Star Wars is a Saga that resonates on a deep, emotional level with its audiences, and that's why I was always skeptical before the ST came out when people used to say the Thrawn Trilogy should be adapted into Episodes VII, VIII, and IX.

    Filoni on the other hand writes some of the most emotionally poignant stories in all of Star Wars imo. What he isn't great at is the more left brained, tactical side of Star Wars. You could argue that isn't part of the Star Wars DNA outside of the books, but it has to be when you are using Thrawn. What makes Thrawn threatening is his ability to outthink and outmaneuver his enemies in ways that often feel mind blowing. The blue skin, red eyes, and calm demeanor are great, but that alone doesn't make him a great villain. Vader, by contrast, is relatively easy to make a threat. All you really need is the costume, James Earl Jones' voice, and him killing people. Thrawn's presence as a compelling antagonist lives or dies by him being a tactical genius, and that is hard to write.

    I think it would be good if Filoni's movie (trilogy?) lifts some of Thrawn's strategies straight out of the Thrawn Trilogy. That could be a way to combine their talents, but with Filoni remaining the creative architect. Just a thought I had.
     
  12. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    I didn’t think Zahn portrayed Thrawn’s tactical genius well either.
     
  13. Fredrik Vallestrand

    Fredrik Vallestrand Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 15, 2018
    Grand Admiral Thrawn, i think worked great here like in Rebels. We only got three episodes with him, but i think they showed him well enough for audiences. This is just act one of a larger story. He is not going to be the book Thrawn. He seems smart like Tarkin and Palpatine. He uses his tactics against space wizards who are enigmas to him. We see him ally himself with witches that Palpatine has previously tried to genocide. I liked his reaction and thoughts about Anakin.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2023
  14. TCF-1138

    TCF-1138 Anthology/Fan Films/NSA Mod & Ewok Enthusiast star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2002
    As much as I adore the Thrawn novels, I'm inclined to agree; a lot of Thrawn's genius is shown by having other characters (including the Emperor himself, in some of Zahn's weaker moments) being in awe of his superior intellect.
    I see little distinction between the Thrawn we meet in Ahsoka and the Thrawn from the books.

    And honestly, I don't need for battles in fiction to make tactical sense, as long as they make narrative and dramatic sense.
     
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  15. Fredrik Vallestrand

    Fredrik Vallestrand Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 15, 2018
    Rebels made the best use of Thrawn.
     
  16. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 1998
    I do. At least, minimize the nonsensical tactics to the point I can live with it. Even at their best, SW tactics tend to be borderline sensible and barely up to maintaining my willing suspension of disbelief.

    But, hey, that's just me.
     
    TCF-1138 likes this.
  17. Reepicheep775

    Reepicheep775 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 27, 2019
    If I could unlike this, I would. :p
     
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  18. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    I agree that Thrawn has always relied significantly on "hype men" writing to sell his threat, but I also do feel like Zahn's writing style tends to avoid stepping into the occasional "cool but nonsensical action sequence" that Filoni sometimes relies on, and primarily "makes its bones" for the military plot in what are still more clever schemes generally shown outside of battle sequences. On the other hand, one area that both Filoni and Zahn actually tend to do very well at consistently is in making Thrawn very good at intelligence analysis, which I think is easier for all writers because its easier to shortcut some secret ending up in someone's hands, or to build in clues for a mystery as you write it.

    In actual execution, Zahn's version of Thrawn tends to mix Sherlockian analysis of an unusual situation with, surprisingly enough, creative con jobs for strategic goals. 3-D space tactics can be mildly entertaining, but difficult to translate into writing in an entertaining way, so Zahn actually tends to just not write the breakdown of larger fleet battles that feature the heroes on one side and the villains on another, and isntead focus on smaller missions within those battles. Introducing some "cool but impractical" technology (like cloaking tech that make you blind as well as invisible) that Thrawn can then figure out how to use in a misinformation campaign of terror typifies where Zahn tends to get clever. Filoni, in contrast, doesn't really do "the villains can run con jobs" that go that deep or that clever, but tends to do better when using logistical common sense like the TIE Defender as his example of Thrawn's "pre-gaming" genius, or just turning off his usual "action scene first!" style for the Rebels Season 3 finale so that Thrawn can just apply regular tactics well.

    I honestly think the only real problem with Thrawn in this season is that Filoni fed his action scene addiction - and neither he nor Favreau like military tactics, and both love crazy action scenes, so it makes a greater contrast to how Thrawn's strength is supposed to be competent at that at minimum.

    It'll probably improve once they can get some proxies between Thrawn and the heroes.
     
  19. Watcherwithin

    Watcherwithin Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2017
    I think the problem has little to do with the actual tactics and more with not giving Thrawn enough victories

    it should be easy for Filoni to apply his action scene mentality to making Thrawn look cool, and that would do more to make him formidable on its own than improving the battles realism

    This was marketed as Thrawns return in the first trailer but he hasn’t returned yet. It feels like we were tricked and they used him as advertising before they’ve written any scripts about him

    teasing Thrawn for the next series doesn’t build him up so much as it deflates the importance when we get his actual introduction. I think a lot of these series should cancel the in between parts and just get straight to what we’re waiting for. Same with Mandalorian, just skip to when Grogu’s older if you’re done with Din. But they want to milk it for a while

    Think about it, Ahsoka is 8 episodes, a good chunk of the time it takes to watch the whole six movies. In the time it took for Thrawn to return in Ahsoka the movies showed 40 years of events. Because there was no filler every scene was integral and quick as possible. A television show should use its longer nature to give us more story total, not less of it per hour spread over two seasons.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2023
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  20. TCF-1138

    TCF-1138 Anthology/Fan Films/NSA Mod & Ewok Enthusiast star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2002
    I never would have guessed that, Sarge. ;)

    But seriously though; I get that. We all have our knowledge and experiences, which will undoubtedly color how we view entertainment. Since your background is in the military and aviation, it makes perfect sense that you'd more concerned with tactics than others, while my background is in screenwriting and cinematography, so I'm more inclined to accept things as long as they work on a narrative level.
     
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  21. Darth_Accipiter

    Darth_Accipiter Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 2, 2015
    mmmm, that's the stuff. Now we just need this theme music set to Thrawn actually doing something more than just stalling.

     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2023
    SyndicThrass likes this.
  22. Bibliora

    Bibliora Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    May 24, 2023
    Loved everything about Thrawn, but his hair. I realized after a few viewings, Thrawn's creep factor was enhanced by his voice's similarity to his brother's, Mads. Thrawn with Hannibal undertones, was shivering at times.
     
  23. SyndicThrass

    SyndicThrass Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 25, 2016
    In terms of the performance and the characterisation of Thrawn, I have no notes. Lars did a tremendous job and Filoni was able to write the character in a way (particularly in that last episode) where there are hints of Thrawn’s unique moral perspective without stripping him of his ruthlessness.

    It’s really just going forward that they’re going to have to rethink how they utilise this character in the plot. Something a little bit closer to what we got in the season 3 finale of Rebels would go a long way, where he was able to pin down the Phoenix fleet through the use of Interdicter cruisers (again another lift from Zahn’s work.)
     
  24. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    Dude, he ordered whales to be killed to kill Ahsoka, not to just…kill whales. Them escaping is of no consequence to him.

    That said, yes, he did fail to kill Ahsoka. But he did set things up so Ahsoka would go to Sabine first, rather than come directly to the tower. So there’s some logic in that. Even though he didn’t know Ahsoka was coming when he sent Sabine away…
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2023
  25. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    He did it better than Filoni in Ahsoka
     
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