Saga Here is my unorthodox Star Wars opinion: change my mind!

The Jedi Order survived for 25,000 years, but they didn't forbid romantic love for over 20,200 years, and there were no people falling to the Dark Side during this extremely long period. At least in Legends. Furthermore, if all it took was one boy with a bad childhood to bring down the entire Order, that should tell us more about the intrinsic weakness of the Order than anything else.

 

The First and Second Great Schism were during this period, the Sith became Lords of the Sith ruled by former Dark Jedi during this period. Exar Kun, Freedon Nadd happened during this period as well. There were definitely people falling to the dark side during this period.

 

Yes, but all these things happened 20,200 years after the formation of the Jedi Order, and during these 20,200 years the Jedi didn't forbid romantic relationships and there were no people falling to the Dark Side.

 

All that I mentioned happened before. Revan and onward happened afterwards. Even Revan and Malak and the Triumvirate were trained as Jedi during the transition period.

 

Granted, the First Great Schism happened in 24,500 BBY, while the Second Great Schism happened in 7,003 BBY. But neither of them had anything to do with romantic relationships. Besides, even if we eliminate both events (including the Hundred Year Darkness), the Jedi Order was still able to hold itself harmoniously for over 20,000 years without forbidding romantic relationships and without having people falling to the Dark Side, which is way more than the post-Russan Reformation Jedi ever managed to do. So, what I said still holds up. Not to mention, your reasoning can also be applied to the Jedi of the Prequel era, because the creation of Darth Vader and the birth of the Empire all happened during a time when the Jedi Order used to forbid romantic relationships. So, if we applied your logic to the Jedi of the Prequel era, we should also conclude that the Jedi Order of the time didn't work. The events of the Tales of the Jedi comics happened during a time when the Jedi didn't forbid romantic relationships, but they also happened after a much, much longer period of peace and stability for the Jedi than the post-Russan Reformation Jedi experienced.

 

The Sith brought the Jedi Order down, after a thousand years of plotting and preparing their revenge in the shadows. Sure, Anakin played his part in it, but only because he chose to. The Empire would have risen with or without Vader.

 

They are called great Schisms as veritable armies of Jedi went dark side, we don't know what the motivations of nearly any of the ones pre attachments rules was nor can we really say what the post attachments ones were lacking they made them fall. Dooku and Darth Ruin were part of the Lost Twenty, they lived long lives, became Jedi Masters, then left with the blessing of the Jedi, were free to do whatever they wanted forevermore and long afterwards became Sith Lords.

The Force sensitive Sith species had a near 100% dark side saturation rate throughout their history even without Jedi intervention. At various times so did the night sisters and night brothers, the Rakata made vast dark side superweapons they used to dominate the galaxy until they were conveniently stripped off the Force. The Legends history still tells us galaxy has a real problem that the Force tradition of the Jedi seemed to most closely resemble a solution too.

 

If Anakin didn't fall to the Dark Side, he would have killed Palpatine with the other members of the Jedi Council, and the entire Sith plan would have failed. No Vader, no Empire . Why do you think Palpatine was so obsessed with the idea of turning Anakin? He knew that Anakin was very powerful, and knew that if Anakin joined forces with the Council, he wouldn't have survived and his entire plan to take over the Galaxy would have failed.

Yes, the Legends universe depicts the Jedi philosophy in a favorable way and tends to depict the Light Side as the true balance, I didn't say otherwise. I, myself, am in favor of the altruistic philosophy preached by the Jedi Order in its various forms, and I'm totally in favor of the Light Side. However, there is nothing in Legends that suggests that the structure and the specific rules that the Jedi Order had during the Prequel era were a definitive solution, so it's still up for debate whether the Jedi can allow themselves to have romantic partners and families or not. Plenty of people fell to the Dark Side after the Russan Reformation: Dooku, Xanatos, Aurra Sing, Sora Bulq, Kadrian Sey, Tol Skorr, Quinlan Vos, and probably a few others that I don't remember right now. So it's not like the Jedi Order of the Prequel era didn't have its fair amount of people who fell to the Dark Side, apart from Anakin. And just to be clear, when I say "Prequel era", I'm not specifically referring to the period that goes from the Naboo crisis to the end of the Clone Wars, I'm referring to the entire post-Russan Reformation period, so the period that goes from 1,000 BBY to 19 BBY.

 

Yet Anakin would have not been born without Sith (in their preparation to the creation of the Empire) becoming so powerful.

 

He wanted Anakin as his apprentice because of his extreme talent, that's all. He had the potential to become more powerful than Sidious, but he wasn't even close to his level yet and Sheev knew that. If he'd wanted Anakin dead, he would have just killed him.

 

How so? Anakin was the Chosen One, he was created by the Force itself to destroy the Sith. The idea that Palpatine created Anakin was present in the first drafts of Revenge of the Sith, but it was later abandoned, so it doesn't count as actual Canon. Lucas always stated that Anakin was created directly by the Force itself to destroy the Sith, and this is also what the movies tell us. Therefore, I don't think we can say that Anakin was really created by the Sith. Even though Lucas considered this idea briefly, he didn't put the idea into practice, so it doesn't count anymore.

Granted, Anakin was not enough powerful to face Sidious alone in Revenge of the Sith, but he was still powerful. And if you put Anakin, Yoda, Mace Windu and Obi-Wan together, Sidious does not have any chance. He was aware of this, and this is one of the main reasons he wanted to turn Anakin into his personal apprentice. He knew that Anakin was powerful, and knew that his power, coupled with the power of the most powerful Jedi masters of the Council, was enough to destroy him. If Anakin didn't turn to the Dark Side and joined forces with the other Jedi masters, Palpatine was not going to win, he would have been destroyed and his entire plan would have failed.

 

Yes, but the Force wouldn't have to create the Chosen One without the Sith breaking the balance too much.

 

Without the Sith there would be no imbalance, without the Jedi there would be no Sith, without the Force there would be no Jedi, without living creatures there would be no Force, without the universe there would be no living creatures, without Big Bang there would be no universe, without quantic fluctuations there would be no Big Bang. What is your point here?

 

The point is that the Sith's increased power (thanks to the Rule of Two) is the primary reason of the Jedi's downfall, not Anakin's betrayal, since he was himself created as a response to Sith's actions.

 

No, I meant that the Sith being an off shoot the Jedi, which is akin to the fact that religion has had people who abused the tenants of religion. Lucas was inspired by the good and bad of religion.

Except that they believed that it was possible for Anakin to come back and thus Luke is never told to kill him outright.

He is saved by giving up his attachments and saving his son out of compassion, after his son gave up his attachments and showed him compassion.

Yep. That's why Vader was described as helping the Empire to hunt down the Jedi and eliminate them.

Recall that Palpatine pretends to be weak in order to turn him. He could still kill Mace. He just wanted his allegiance and found it. The war was also killing Jedi at a high rate. He didn't need Anakin to help him.

 

Firstly, if you think Christianity is somehow responsible for producing more bigots and criminals than any other movement in human history then you have a very shallow understanding of history. Secondly, unless you have read the books of the New Testament in their original Greek, or the old Testament for that matter - or more so in their original Hebrew - then by your own standards you have no right to pass judgement on Christianity, right? Except, its been translated and so English is a language we can judge it from? In that case, why is a translation of Daoist thought from Chinese any different. Its a silly argument.

Attachment isn't simply liking somebody and caring for them. The attachment being referred to here is attachment as possession. Here the 'attachment' you have for a person takes on a perverted form - in a sense that they belong to you, that you cannot do without them. But often that is holding onto a particular 'version' of the person, one you have created in your mind. This is reification. In this form the person in their self cannot change, cannot move away from the idealised form that the possessor has.

I think this is one of the things the PT gets right in terms of Anakin's behaviour toward Padmé - whether by design or not. He has already reified her by the time of AOTC - he has thought about her every day (as he says) since the events of TPM. We see him angered by her defiance of his version of her in the balcony scene in ROTS where he turns on her for 'sounding like a separatist', and he eventually turns on her when he thinks she is betraying him. This isn't love, this is a very twisted for of attachment - possession.

I disagree that Daoism is any closer to Buddhism than Christianity is; Christianity is related to the Socratic idea of the Logos - a fundamental truth or 'purpose' to the universe. In the same way Daoism is based upon a natural order (a purpose) of the universe. Buddhism is about contemplating the universe as we experience it, not some notional idea of what the universe is believed to be. It is also NOT a proscriptive (particularly relevant here) or prescriptive philosophy. I would also argue it is not a religion. If you see demonstrable results from practicing then it isn't religion. If you practice something and you can make rocks float, then that is a very real outcome.

Buddhism isn't based on a set of rules. It is useful to have a guide, but they aren't telling you how the universe works, they are there to help you understand yourself and through yourself, through meditation and contemplation. This, it seems to me, is clearly what Jedi teachings are based upon from the OT. There is no proscription, except to be wary of the darkside. How will Luke know what is right? When he is at peace, when his mind is clear (meditation). Why can't Luke (use the darkside?) - there is no why, no more questions today - clear your mind of questions; You cannot be told why, you need to understand within yourself.

And as for the whole idea that Jedi children are trained from infancy, that makes no sense of the actual discussion Yoda, Obi-Wan and Luke are involved in. Yoda throws out the notion that Luke is too old as an excuse - and it is clearly intended as a challenge to Luke. Obi-Wan calls him out on not only the age but the impatience in Luke "Was I any different when you first trained me?". It is clear from this (imo) that Obi-Wan was certainly NOT an infant, and was likely around the same kind of age as Luke is.

As for how dull the Jedi would be....well, yeah. I mean the story only makes sense as an adventure because it shows the Jedi under duress, in a situation where they have to act. I'm pretty certain a film about Yoda on Dagobah for 20 years would be pretty uninteresting. Likewise, Obi-Wan has been sitting it out in the desert for 20 years. Most people's lives aren't really story worthy, it is only when individuals are put into a stressful/unusual/dangerous situation that there is a story. You want to see a movie about Leia's time in the Senate, discussing new laws, offering amendments?

So, would there be, imo, a rule against marriage? From the Jedi as I understood them from the OT? No, because there wouldn't have been rules. Do I think it would be usual for a member of the Jedi order to marry? I think it would be very unlikely.

 

Very true. This is why Yoda and Obi-wan's return for the final duel was dropped in ROTJ, since it forces Luke to stand on his own. Also, Kasdan had a more familiar understanding of Buddhism which he imparted to Lucas during the writing of TESB.

Except much of Obi-Wan's training was thirteen years under Yoda and there is plenty of room for him to be an angry young man. The real struggle with emotion begins at this point.



The first six novels in the "Jedi Apprentice" series depicted an Obi-Wan who struggled with his emotions.

It would be presumptuous to have assumed that the Jedi didn't have rules, back before 1999. We knew next to nothing from Lucas, which meant that we only had a fraction of the history of the Order.

 

I base my criticism of Christianity not on the basic teaching or Christ himself (whom I happen to regard as a noble and wise individual, a role model, by the way), but rather what has later become of it. Do you actually believe the organized churches or Vatican truly represent Christ's teachings? I happen to disagree. Have there been the oppression and exploitation of an entire continent, the crusades, burning and torture of "witches", Inquisition etc., in the name of Confucianism, Daoism or Buddhism? Not that I am aware of.
You do know the Vatican is among the wealthiest, if not THE wealthiest organization, with enormous amounts of gold and other treasures, in the world? Does the Vatican share any of that wealth, say, to help build schools, hospitals, fight misery and inequality? Again, not that I am aware of. Unless you can enlighten me with your superior knowledge and understanding of history, and show me that the Vatican itself, as a state, NOT individuals or smaller religious groups, has done anything significant to make the world better, my negative attitude towards it stays unchanged.

I differentiate between organized Christianity, as an instrument of power, and the original scriptures or teachings. Those original texts may have some wisdom in them, but have become twisted and perverted by power-hungry groups or individuals for their own benefit.

 

I agree with some of what you wrote in your post but I want to focus on this bit.
In TPM, does Anakin have this kind of "attachment" to his mother? He clearly missed her and was afraid of loosing her and the Jedi saw this as a problem.

More general, is this the type of "attachment" that most or all children have with their parents/primary care giver?

And can those children let go of this when they grow up?

Given that the Jedi take in potential Jedi when they are young and they have an age limit.
That someone that has lived with their parents/primary caregiver for too long is too "tainted" by "attachment".
Then it seems that they think parent-child attachments are a problem and can not be dealt with once formed. The only solution is then to ensure that this does not happen and thus potential Jedi must be taken in very young.

Or was Anakin's attachment to his mother something out of the ordinary?

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

@only one kenobi
You make a lot of sense in that last post and I agree with most of what you say. I also looked into the Jedi Code a bit more on Wookieepedia, specifically the parts about attachment. What interested me the most was this paragraph:


"Notwithstanding the strictures against attachment, the Code emphasized compassion as an essential aspect to the Jedi way of life, teaching that all lives were precious, though outsider misunderstandings of this were not unusual. While Jedi did not marry, the Code banned neither romantic feelings nor familial love. Nevertheless, giving into personal attachment was tantamount to forsaking the way of the Jedi, the teachings of which had little to do with typical family relationships."


Jedi do not marry and my take on that is that it would be a sign of attachment. Unless they'd marry purely for legal/social reasons, they'd do it for emotional reasons and a Jedi would have no reason to do that since they practice non-attachment.
At the same time, the Code does not ban romantic feelings. Three other paragraphs are of interest here:


"While the Jedi Code forbade possession and attachments, the Jedi were encouraged and trained to love in terms of compassion. Indeed, Jedi Master Zallah Macri, while explained the code to her apprentice Kevmo Zink, simply noted that a Jedi was "allowed to like people and things," but they could not allow those attachments to consume them. Jedi Knight Indeera Stokes stated that love, experiencing and embracing joy, affection and even grief was part of the light side, however, a Jedi couldn't be a slave of these emotions."

"The Jedi considered romantic feelings "natural" and as such, they did not outright prohibit them. According to Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi, however, they were not supposed to enter into a romantic relationship - it was essential for a Jedi Knight to make the right choice for the Order and not neglect their Jedi duties in the favor of their beloved, even if that would mean the end of the relationship."

"The Jedi were encouraged to rely on their instincts over their mind. They held their emotions valuable but were also warned to be mindful of them, for they could cloud their judgment. A Jedi had to maintain a serene, quiet mind in order to stand on the light side instead of the dark—thus, they were able to keep the Force within them in balance."


It seems to me like we're very much in agreement with the Jedi on this. Emotions, including romantic affection, are natural and valuable, but as a Jedi to whom non-attachment is of the utmost importance, one cannot identify oneself with one's emotions. We are not our emotions, nor are we supposed to be their slaves.

At the same time, though, I can't help but feel that I personally could marry someone out of love and still let them go whenever necessary. The marriage would just be a promise that we'll have each other and rely on each other for as long as we can/want. Until life do us part, I guess you could say.

Maybe enforcing rules isn't really the way to go for the Jedi, as you say. As long as they understand what being a Jedi is about, as long as they feel the reality and the truth of their ways, they will maintain their balance regardless of rules.

It should also be noted that Jedi don't agree on everything. I mean, the details. An example:


"Jedi Knight Rael Averross believed that the Jedi code permitted casual sexual relationships as long as the Jedi did not form attachments. Averross had such a relationship with Selbie, an innkeeper on Pijal, when he served as Lord Regent of that planet. His friend and fellow Jedi Qui-Gon Jinn did not agree with this belief."


Whatever floats your boat, I'd say. If Rael remained non-attached and balanced, if he remained a Jedi through it all, then what's the problem? Qui-Gon may have disagreed with his friend because he had the feeling that he himself (and/or many others) wouldn't have been able to have a casual sexual relationship with someone without getting attached, but if it works for some, let them have it!

 

Anakin's attachment to his mother is the typical kind that occurs in a healthy environment. It's harder for him to separate himself from her when he has never been separated from her like that. The closest analogy is what can occur the first time you leave home and spend the night at a friend's house. I had trouble with this because for the first time, I was without any family member who I was used to being around. There can be anxiety that affects people based on their age. But as time went on and I aged, this was no longer an issue.

For Anakin to leave the only life that he knew, he had no frame of reference. It's why he was afraid to lose her. When he kills the Tusken Raiders, it's because she was taken from him. It was less about the suffering that she endured and more someone important to him was taken from her. He blames Obi-Wan for not pushing him further in his training, which he sees as being held back. He cannot accept that part of the blame lies with his own arrogance in his abilities that he started slacking off with his training. He also cannot accept that he cannot solve every problem and fix everything. This is evident when he quietly says he that he was good at fixing things, while trying to fix something.

 

I am tired of the Kylo Ren wannabe characters like Qimir or Marrok from Ahsoka better use Kylo Ren in some show than watch these Kylo Ren cosplayers

 

Qimir is not a Kylo Ren wannabe.

 

I was suggesting merely that there were many many bigots and criminals prior to Christianity, there have been many from outside of Christianity. My main bone of contention, though, was the idea that we had no place talking about 'Eastern' traditions because...language - but then none of the world's religions have their origins in the English language (except for Mormonism, and I guess Jedi).

To be fair, no I think Anakin's attachment to his mother was perfectly normal - from what I can see. His issue in AOTC is that he lacks any kind of emotional control - he's literally lashing out at anything and everything in his path - but that doesn't start with the Tuskens, he's throwing tantrums throughout, usually against Obi-Wan. I mean, what has he been learning for the last ten years? Did none of the Jedi notice that he has become a slave to his emotions?

The whole 'he's too old' guph makes even less sense when you realise that Luke got it - he didn't need to be taught from infancy.

So, as I said previously, I think his possessive attachment towards Padmé is delivered in AOTC and particularly in ROTS, but I don't see attachment to his mother as being possessive, no. He needed serious help with managing his emotional responses - instead he got a promotion.

Isn't Kylo Ren literally a Darth Vader wannabe?

 

Anakin wasn't really throwing tantrums. He was questioning Obi-Wan and the Council, in the beginning. He does vent to Padme when alone. As to his general demeanor, he's not the first Padawan to struggle with his emotions. This is the point that is dangerous in the training of a Jedi, that Obi-Wan warned Luke about. The Padawan has not yet learned to master their emotions and can be tempted by the dark side. Anakin is twenty here and Obi-Wan was twenty five in TPM. The Council isn't that concerned even though Obi-Wan is.

Luke doesn't have a Sith Lord twisting his mind for a dozen years. He also only gets it because he understood the vision of the dark side cave. He finally realized that he was becoming his father because of what he was doing. He had an epiphany and a moment of clarity and understanding.