ST How come Leia never forgive her father (Anakin)?

Protagonist are the audience proxy. But they shouldn't come across as having seen the previous movies when they weren't around for it. And this is only a big deal because the story says conflicting things about what legends and events are being passed around.

Why would Leia tell Rey about this personal story of Luke's? The galaxy already knows that Vader was their father, but the redemption part? Why would she share that with Rey, when she's been determined to keep the whole thing a secret for 30 years, and is continuing to keep her relationship with Kylo Ren a secret as she's doing this. Seriously, does anyone in the Resistance know that she's Kylo's mom? Does Poe? Finn? Rey learns this in TFA, as if it's no big deal, even though it is. Because Leia doesn't mention a word about to anyone other than Han, who of course already knows. So the ST treats Leia as a liar, or, best case...as extremely secretive with personal info.

And given what's included in the books as well (If I'm remembering correctly here) Leia forced Luke to keep the Vader reveal and his redemption story a secret for Ben's sake. It was Snoke who finally revealed it. Right? Ben found out later on. Why would Snoke of all people, a clone sitting in a vat, know about the redemption stuff? Sure he could leak that Vader is Leia's father. But the redemption of Vader due to Luke? That's a POV truthof Luke's (and the audience watching at home) Why would he even think there was a redemption in the first place? They would see it as a failing. Which he and Kylo both in fact do.

So again, why would the galaxy know about Vader's redemption. Why would some girl in Jakku have known about this, stated just exactly as it happened in ROTJ? Leia is secretive and a liar, and the Snoke wouldn't have considered a redemption. And Luke...he apparently told nobody because he promised Leia.

And all of that doesn't align with the story where Luke apparently only passed on his successes. You would think this would be the big one he'd tell his students. But he didn't. Which is now weird because he was obsessed with living up to his legend. Which was apparently just the things he did in the OT, with no exaggeration. Because Rey doesn't tell some exaggerated version of the story. She tells the exact truth. As it happened. As Luke saw those events. Not even Leia sees those events the same way.

This is why it's a freaking mess.

 

As for the underscored statement: This seems like personal preference more than anything.

The question comes down to this: How much of the galaxy's history is public knowledge?

Much like our planet's history, the lines between truth and legend are often blurred and the "truth" depends on whom you talk to.

In TFA, Rey clearly knows the myth of Luke Skywalker, but is surprised to find out the the stories are real. Han Solo, onscreen, confirms this to her.

This an interesting parallel because it harkens back to ANH, in which, Han has clearly heard myths of Jedi and The Force, but Han doesn't believe it*. In any event, I don't think it's a stretch to think Leia filled Rey in on the specifics of Vader's redemption. Certainly, if she is on a mission to find Luke, the Last Jedi, this may be in the prep/dossier...so to speak.

*Which is kinda odd considering that her runs with Chewbacca who did experience/witness Jedi and The Force firsthand.

Bottom Line: The movies are often unclear on these type of things and the audience must connect the dots themselves. This is not just a ST flaw.

 

It makes no sense that she'd know the whole myth about Luke, when she knows nothing about Han as a rebellion general.

 

Again, we don't know when Rey learned the whole story of Luke and Vader's redemption.

In the beginning of TFA Rey only seems to know Luke as a folk hero or myth. Yet, by the time she actually meets him in TLJ she certainly seems to know more she previously did.

Though not much time has passed in the narrative a few major things have happened to Rey: She met Han and learned that the legends of Luke Skywalker, The Jedi, The Force (and its dark side) were true. She then forged a relationship with Leia and was send specifically by Leia on mission to find Luke and convince him to return. As I said, if Rey didn't know certain specifics of Luke's story/myth earlier, it's likely that Leia filled Rey in as that background knowledge could/would be very useful.

Lastly, Rey was able to turn Kylo Ren's mind probe against him and was able to peer into his mind, thoughts (and possibly memories) picking up on Ren's fears of not living up to Darth Vader.

This is a personal preference. Some love/dislike Christoper Nolan's movies (Inception for example) for this very type of experience.

Also, there were "fill in the blank" moments that lend themselves to head canon in the OT and PT too. Heck, these very forums are chock full of discussions on these kind of things. Some may be more egregious than others, but this is simply in the eye of the beholder.

 

The OT was pretty strong in its establishing character and narrative drives. It was believable.
The PT was a little more symbolic with archetypes and mythical themes. But it still gives a lot to work with.
The ST is pretty thin, and from what I’ve read here of the tie-in novels, a lot of important info, the real meat that made it make sense as a continuation of the Lucas films wasn’t remotely shown onscreen.

I admit that some of Lucas’s intent in the PT wasn’t clear without listening to his interviews about the themes presented in the movies, but it seemed sourced from a larger whole.

 

The truth is, is that the ST largely skips over its own story. Everything vital or important to the story, or hell maybe even interesting, is left off screen.

 

Hmm. I'm not understanding you here. You don't understand Rey's motivations? For anything she does? Or, are you saying that you don't like what her motivations are?

Secondly, I think you and I have discussed this but...I think Padme's motivations in ROTS are highly baffling: Like, why would a character as strong as Padme succumb from heart break (not physical injuries) rather than mustering up the will to live to raise/protect/live with her newborn children?

This is just fairy tale malarky and just a trope-ish as anything Rey does. Point being: This would be an example of pivotal character motivations being incongruent at best.

Star Wars can be (and often is) different things to different people. I don't think there is a hard/fast rule about what Star Wars is (or is not) supposed to be. For example: There is certainly some fans that have argued that Andor is not really what Star Wars is supposed to be.

Lastly, the Dark Knight Trilogy aren't necessarily the Nolan movies with a high volume "fill in the blank" moments. Yet, there are a few. Although, you may not have had issue with Batman's motivations, I distinctly recall many fans taking issue with Bruce's character choices and motivations in The Dark Knight Rises.

 

Well. He was shirtless.

And the force stepped in to make sure she started liking him.

 

None of this is in the movies as her learning anything new than what she knew before.

 

Huh?

 

That Rey was told and or got any other information about Luke's myth.

 

There's no real loss of spine. She's still refuses to budge on her morals and stands firm. It's never even a question from her to do anything except stand by what she perceives as right and never apologize for it. She begs, pleads, is emotional, about Anakin's total compromise, BUT SHE NEVER ONCE even considers compromising.

 

Yes. I have said as much.

 

You say that like she chose it. It just happened, as far as the movie developed. I think it doesn't make her a loss of spine for her to die to that. She still holds firm to her morals even to the end.

 

I'm not trying to state that two wrongs make a right. I am just disagreeing with your assertion that :

We have no insight into the motivation of Padme to give up, or "die of heartbreak" other than what we come up with on our own.

In another thread we had talked about Luke having a character/motivation shift between Episode 5 & 6. In ROTJ Luke shows up with the belief that there is good in Vader. This seemed odd to some because this belief is based on moment that is never seen the shown/reasoned out/discussed in ESB.

You had a great take on this:

Isn't the above reasoning (which I do like better than the actual narrative) a perfect example of "filling in the blanks" for yourself? You said the OT/PT never did this? Yet, here seems to be an example of you filling in some blanks for a character motivation/shift that wasn't shown discussed/onscreen.

 

It's not in the movies, so to suggest she did is basically making up something the movie itself never develops.

 

Luke himself gives a reasoning why he may feel this, on the basis of:

"I know there is good in you. The emperor hasn't driven it from you fully. That's why you couldn't destroy me."

That and his personal connection with his dad is a basis of this.

As for Padme, what we see is: Padme's life's work get broken down and perverted into something unrecognizable, same with the man she loves.

 

Here's what was said in the movie.

Luke: Lesson two. Now that they are extinct, the Jedi are romanticized, deified. But if you strip away the myth and look at their deeds, the legacy of the Jedi is failure. Hypocrisy, hubris.
Rey: That's not true.
Luke: At the height of their powers, they allowed Darth Sidious to rise, create the Empire, and wipe them out. It was a Jedi Master who was responsible for the training and creation of Darth Vader.
Rey: And a Jedi who saved him. Yes, your father was the most hated man in the galaxy, but you saw there was conflict inside him. You believed that he wasn't gone, that he could be turned.
Luke: And I became a legend. For many years, there was balance... and then I saw Ben. My nephew with that mighty Skywalker blood. In hubris, I thought I could train him; I could pass on my strengths. Han was... Han about it, but... Leia trusted me with her son. I took him, and a dozen students, and began a training temple. By the time I realized I was no match for the darkness rising in him, it was too late.
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And it's all BS. These lines are what the director-writer thinks of the OT, not what Luke, Leia, Rey, or the galaxy would care about those events. He's getting audience knowledge and POV confused with in-story ones. Maybe on purpose.

1: A Jedi did not create Darth Vader. Luke knows this. He doesn't blame Obi-wan for what happened. He knows it was his father's choice in his own creation, after being seduced by Palpatine. Just as it's his own choice to go back to the light. But RJ needs Luke to blame Obi-wan, so that we can blame Luke for Kylo. He's switching this up, so that Rey initially blames Luke for Kyo's creation. She later states that Luke didn't fail Ben, but Ben failed him...and she wouldn't do the same. Which is great, but Luke wouldn't feel the same towards his own father.

2: Rey isn't retelling a myth. She's stating facts as they literally happened in the OT, as if she's watched the movie (of which was a very private affair that only Luke would know about in this manner since he was there and survived) She's not embellishing events, nor exaggerating them, as one would do when retelling myths and legends, or even ones passed down from second hand (Leia) sources.

3: If this was a tale told to Rey by Leia, the story would have been different. Why would Leia view these events the same way Luke does? Why would she state that Luke saved their father, so that Rey could regurgitate Lea's story just incase Rey needs it to convince Luke to come back? The story is missing fundamental scenes showing us this, in TFA. so that TLJ 'works'. TLJ is assuming Leia feels the exact same way as Luke would. TLJ doesn't actually care about motivation, so it skips this entirely. Rey just knows the story and feels the same way as well. RJ doesn't care about getting Rey to this point, she's already there because the audience already saw this movie.

4: Given the OT context, and the info from the books, it isn't a safe assumption that Leia would feel as Luke does. Given that she hid the truth about Vader's revealed name, and his so called redemption, so that she could protect Ben ... she's either ashamed of the event, or worried that it's actually a detriment to her family. It's more likely that she didn't view Vader as saved and was simply glad he was dead.

5: Why would Luke become a legend for this particular event? He says he passed on his strengths, but this wasn't one of them. He was forced to hide it all so that his secretive/liar sister could protect her son. (And her career) So that means the galaxy wouldn't know about this event. It's also unclear why the galaxy would even care or agree with this POV. Even if Luke told everyone that Vader saved him from the Emperor and then tossed Sheev into the reactor, they'd would most likely shrug and go "okay...but he's dead right. Cool.". or at best "So Vader finally killed his Master. Good". Luke knows that Anakin saved his soul, and his son, but the galaxy - after dealing with his oppression for decades - would not care in the same way. And they most likely wouldn't congratulate Luke for saving his soul or for feeling the conflict inside of him.

6: Once again, this all comes down to poor, convoluted, inconsistent writing.

 

I said this much as well. Thanks!