How good was Vader as a military commander???

Suicide is how the Rebels could have killed Veers. Suicide is how they destroyed Executor. Crynyd was a Rebel soldier. I do not say they did suicibe runs on ORDER, like the kamikaze. They did it by their own free will, because this way they crippled important targets in important battles.

You said suicide is their preferred method. That would imply an institutionalized rule. That's far from the case. You only have one case of suicide, and that's arvel crynyd.

Hobbie didn't even have the guts to pull it off at the last minute. He punched out and survived after all.

BTW, the crews at Endor abandoned ship before ramming their vessels according tot he RotJ novel.

There was no ramming in the Battle of Hoth
except for Hobbie. Even he punched out.

Command never ordered the suicide runs of that any of its pilots carried out. It's hardly preferred by the Rebellion.

[iSuicide is how the Rebels could have killed Veers. Suicide is how they destroyed Executor[/i]

Executor had also been heavily damaged by the bombardment of multiple Mon Cal cruisers.

 

Duh, it's not a preferred method. It's a method they won't fail to use. They don't fail to use, in fact.
In the movies, Crynyd is the only case, true.

In the EU it's used quite a few times during major battles, so I quess it's somewhat a feat of rebels - ramming (not particulary suicide, but ramming).

The terrorist suicide bombers are mentioned clearly in the "Empire" issue 13.

 

But you claimed it was the favored method of the Rebellion.

It's favored by the Rebellion, actually.

Now it's not?

The suicides are carried out by individuals at key moments. They are rarely ordered. And the alliance has never used a suicide bombing .

Issue 13....what's the story for that one?

 

O.K. My mistake. The Rebels did not favor suicide runs. They just used them more than the Empire. Is that O.K.?

As for the suicide bombing in Issue 13 - it's a report from an officer on Ralltiir to commander Akobi, that in the city Rebels.. uh.. I'll quote:
"Commander Akobi? There's something else. I overheard the officers talking about the Rebel suicide runs on the other side of the city... they are targeting infrastructure and non-combatants now. I'm not sure... do you think we should--"

 

Perhaps they meant suicide as in a death run mission with no chance of returning alive?

 

How so? The weapons of the snow/airspeeders can´t penetrate the AT-ATs armor and the trick with the cable was first used on Hoth.

Funny, that we see a lot more AT-ATs intact, when the battle is already over.

Lets assume there were 5,000 rebels on Hoth.

If an average of 100 persons (certainly more, given the desperate situation) was on each ship we get 1,700 killed on the ships. If we add the ones killed during the battle and the ones captured on the ground and in space the rebels have lost two-thirds of the entire base-personal.

Yeah right. Thats why the US-Army uses Humvees for their tank-attacks instead the Abrams.

The point is speed isn´t everything.

On the contrary. If an AT-AT covers half of its own lenght in one second (what we see) it has no problems to make the 60 kmph.

Perhaps to not overrun the rebels?

Once again, speed isn´t everyting.

Changes nothing, that the rebels were unable to slow the AT-AT down or destroy them with conventional tactics. And if they continue to use suicide-runs they´re without speeders and men before the empire is without AT-AT.

Would you please decide, what you want:

Either you include the EU and then AT-ATs make 60 kmph, there is no repulsor-vehicle equally armed and regular TIEs have no shields and no armour, not to mention, that the battle of Hoth is a huge victory for the empire
or
we go with the movies and then the only thing the empire has are AT-ATs and AT-STs and it lost only three AT-ATs to crazy tactics.

Perhaps somebody, who had to decide, what to put into a limited amount of space. How big do you want the cargo-holds of the ISDs and Executor to be?

Intelligence? The only knowledge the imperials had was the position of the rebel-base and that it was protected by a shield strong enough to repel any kind of (clean) bombardement.

And the ISD-completation doesn´t suck. It is up to the job it is intended for. To have an optimised vessel for every crazy/whacky situation the military planners could think about would quickly result in a logistical nightmare.

That A-Wing got hit before it crashed into the bridge, but not destroyed. The pilot knew, he woul

 

Not every rebel/rebellious person (like probabely those in Issue 13) is a member of the rebel-alliance.

 

FTeik
Those acting on Ralltiir were particulary noted out to be members of the Rebel Alliance in the comic.
and the trick with the cable was first used on Hoth
Was it? Maybe, if we don't take the games, Force Commander for example. Otherwise it was used earlier
that we see a lot more AT-ATs intact, when the battle is already over.
How many? Let's see - before Luke's insane trick with the landmine, there were 3 AT-ATs. After the trick one was destroyed. I think it was 2 AT-ATs left.

If we add the ones killed during the battle and the ones captured on the ground and in space the rebels have lost two-thirds of the entire base-personal.
Of course the Rebels suffered heavy loss. But the KEY personnel were able to flee.
I do not defy the fact Rebels lost the BoH. They lost a base and 17 ships, which would carry plenty of soldiers and equipment. But the Imperials failed to destroy/capture all. And suffered heavy loss to the Blizzard advancing force.
The point is speed isn´t everything.
I see your point. But speaking of HOTH particulary, speed was everything
Perhaps to not overrun the rebels?
Maybe cause then it would not be able to fire at them. And then there were trenches, the AT-AT could stomp... uh
And if they continue to use suicide-runs they´re without speeders and men before the empire is without AT-AT.
True, but you evade the point. I am speaking of the Hoth operation and it's effectiveness.
we go with the movies and then the only thing the empire has are AT-ATs and AT-STs and it lost only three AT-ATs to crazy tactics.
Actually that's the way I explain it If we have the movies only, we have DOZENS of ways to explain the losses at Hoth, the low speed, the casualties e.t.c. But given the EU, the whole thing seems messed up.

And, even if At-ATs make 60kph, I already said that any repulsorlift vehicle would make more, not speaking of AERIAL support, which is by ALL military laws a CRUCIAL thing in assault operations.
How big do you want the cargo-holds of the ISDs and Executor to be?
Big enough to have a corps-level unit. The ISD is 1,600 m. The Executor even 17,600 m. If they did NOT find the place for the forces in a 17,600 m ship... uh well..
To have an optimised vessel for every crazy/whacky situation
So what, shields and enemy aviation are UNCOMMON military situations? Funny. Aviation is the first thing they should've thought about. Shield is the second, if one wants to belive, despite the evidence, that shields were uncommon in SW.
Tell me one incident, where an AT-AT was destroyed by the cannons of the rebels in the trenchs or by the lasers of the snowspeeders
That is actually irrelevant. If you send in a Pz.Kpfw Tiger II tank against a whole pack of Shermans, but it is destroyed by an assault fighter from above, what does that mean?
Perhaps the AT-AT can´t shoot at hundreds of targets at the same time?
Yes. Perhaps that is due to a LACK of support of the AT-AT by other vehicles, suited for close combat and fitted with AI guns, like AT-TE.
According to the TESB-novel the AT-ATs stamped fleeing rebel-soldiers
Oh GOD STOMP is the silliest way an AT-AT can be used. But nevermind.
Of course so many rebel-soldiers are equipted with a lightsaber and a harpoon at the same time.
Harpoon is standard. As for the lightsaber, I think attaching a landmine to the belly would have the same effect. Just be the explosive powerful enough.
How practical is it to use cables to bring AT-ATs down (since you have only one on your snowspeeder)?
Umm... very practical when there are 6 AT-ATs and a dozen speeders.
How practical is it to make suicide-runs against AT-AT
Quite practical, if you in dire straits like the Rebels and need to slow down the Imps at ANY cost.
if he can´t expect to drop in by comparison soft snow or can slow down his fall/weaken his impact on the ground with the force?
I don't know if Luke used the force. But rebels w

 

Harpoon is standard. As for the lightsaber, I think attaching a landmine to the belly would have the same effect. Just be the explosive powerful enough.

A landmine? I don't think so. Maybe a shaped explosive of some kind, but not a landmine. The shrapnel alone raining down from the opening would kill or at least seriously injure the Rebel attempting the feat. They would have to get off the AT-AT before it went off, probably getting them on the ground with broken parts. Now they are onthe ground with no way of getting back to the AT-AT. Unless, of course, multiple harpoons are standard(I didn't know even one was). Perhaps a shaped thermal detonator or proton grenade would do the trick without harming the Rebel, both would vaporize the metal before it could begin to fall. I believe that Stormtrooper thermal detonators have controls for manipulating the blast(though I'm not sure how fine those controls are), but we've not seen those on any of the others. Assuming the Rebels did have some, they would probably have to come from the infantry, not a pilot that crash landed like Luke.

~ DS5

 

The rest of this doesn't have much to do with Vader.

General Veers would have been responsible for the composition of Blizzard Force and the tactics used for carrying out his mission objectives.

So....anything else about Vader we want to discuss?

 

Matthew,
General Veers may not have been responsible for the composition of Blizzard Force. It may have been a direct order from Vader to use only AT-ATs and AT-STs.
Like in Battle of Endor, the Imperial Fleet had a perfect opportunity to strike the Rebels from afar early in the battle, but a direct order from the Emperor prevented that.

 

given they WON Grand Admiral I'd hate to see what you wanted to see happen

 

Gross-admiral_Thrawn
Registered: Jan 03
Date Posted: 6/23 9:31am Subject: RE: How good was Vader as a military commander???
Matthew,
General Veers may not have been responsible for the composition of Blizzard Force. It may have been a direct order from Vader to use only AT-ATs and AT-STs.
Like in Battle of Endor, the Imperial Fleet had a perfect opportunity to strike the Rebels from afar early in the battle, but a direct order from the Emperor prevented that.
-----signature-----


We see no evidence of that. What we do see is Vader mostly leaving the tactical choices to his officers. He had no idea of Ozzel's "clumsy and stupid" plan. He was locked away in his meditation pod and gave his officers the benefit of the doubt.

He tells Veers to prepare for ground assault and then stalks off. He allows Piett to organize the fleet.

There's no evidence of micromanagement on the Dark Lord's part.

Without evidence, there's not much to argue about. (well there is evidence that he didn't micromanage )

 

Matthew, point taken
So the Hoth suckthings were the fault of Vader's lieutnants, not of himself. And if we take into account that the did not handpick any of the forces, than he's kinda... not involved in the failures.
O.K.

 

Not involved in the failures?

Its because of Vader that the IDS even went to the Hoth system due to his Force hunch, and with Luke being there, you'd think Vader would have supervised operations more closely.

 

We'd think Vader did watch the operations, but as Matthew already pointed out, Vader left a lot of initiative to his admirals and generals.
Ozzel and Piett were responsible for the actions in space, Veers - for the actions on Hoth and the force composition, presumably.

 

I wonder if Vader played any role in the Imperial pacification of the Hapan Cluster?

 

I just answering some points with this, but since this is a discussion about Vader´s abilities as military commander and not about the value of walkers (especially the AT-AT), open another can of worms so to say.

You´re all invited to participate.

You´re sure about that? Well, perhaps the rebels were really desperate or the imperials were arguing about the behaiviour of rebels trapped in a no-win/no-way-out situation. According to some EU-sources the rebels were more afraid of imperial imprisonment and interrogation, than of death.

Not my argument, but an example of over-specialisation, if there were modifications to vessels just for such a case.

Well, i would go with 3 AT-AT, at least 1 AT-ST left and another bunch of forces unscreen.

Lets see: 3 AT-AT destroyed (four if we include Dash Rendars action in a game). Each AT-AT is operated by 3 men and carries 40 troops. That gives us imperial losses of 129 or 172 men maximum in the main battle.

Does anybody know, how many rebels died in the ground-battle and not aboard the ships?

Not for the price of more men and equipment in an even more hurried assault.

So what? Shield-generator destroyed and the rebels on the run. Mission accomplished for the AT-ATs.

And how would an ordinary tank or repulsor-vehicle be able to fire at enemies already in its back? Such a vessel would also have to slow down or turn around.

If the AT-AT had to slow down as to not overrun the rebels, this would be even more true for the tanks and speeders demanded by you. Not to forget, that the most weapons of those point into the same direction as those of the AT-AT: forward.

Don´t try to wiggle out. YOU were the one, who claimed, that suicide-tactics are common among rebel-soldiers and that the imperial officers at Hoth should have been prepared for those, since such were already used elsewhere (in ForceCommander).

No, no and no.

If we go by the EU the empire can´t use tank or repulsor-vehicles, because:

-those can´t pass shields
-can´t be used in every enviroment
-aren´t part of the usual equipment of star destroyers
-the empire has none of your chassises you expect it to have
-are less heavily armed and armored than an AT-AT

And by all military law you can only use, what you have. So this excludes AT-AAs and those chassises of yours. And as stated before more speed would only come at the sacrifice of armour and

 

FTeik,
yes, I am pretty sure these were Rebels.
According to some EU-sources the rebels were more afraid of imperial imprisonment and interrogation, than of death.
Uh... did you just read the quote? It said "...Rebel suicide runs on the other side of the city... they are targeting infrastructure and non-combatants now." That's not desperate in fear of Imperial imprisonment. And also they did not commit suicide later, when they were captured by the Stormtrooper.
I quess these were just the worse members of Rebel Alliance, huh.
but an example of over-specialisation
Given that the AT-AT is kinda the main APC of the Empire... don't know.
Well, i would go with 3 AT-AT, at least 1 AT-ST left and another bunch of forces unscreen.
I was talking about the losses of the FIRST line of AT-AT. Which consisted of no more than 6 AT-AT in EU and no more than 5 AT-AT in the movies.
If these 5 or 6 were destroyed, this would mean:
1) Veer's death or injury, as happened
2) the destruction of the shield generator would be DELAYED, given there were no other sources in sight except the 5 AT-AT. Not even as far as 25 km. No other forces!
The Rebels destroyed 4 out of 6, or 3 out of 5 which leaves us with 2 AT-AT.
and carries 40 troops
Uh, I thought it was 80 troops.
Does anybody know, how many rebels died in the ground-battle and not aboard the ships?
No more than a few hundred, I quess. There was not even as much in the trenches on-screen.
Not for the price of more men and equipment in an even more hurried assault.
What? NOT at the price of men? What's up with that, did they want to crush the Rebellion, or did they NOT want that at all? Because if they would have killed ALL at the price of more soldiers (from the TRILLIONS at the Empire's disposal!), that would be better than let the Rebels survive and cripple the Empire at Endor!
And how would an ordinary tank or repulsor-vehicle be able to fire at enemies already in its back?
Uh... I always thought there is the brilliant concept of turret turret with a gun and a MG.
I guess I did not see that the AT-TE has a turret with a big gun and also 6 APBs, which can turn and cover the whole range around the AT-TE.
Or that the Rebel tanks have turrets. Or that the Republic light tank has a turnable MG atop. Or that the Juggernaut has turnable turrets. How did that all come about?
and that the imperial officers at Hoth should have been prepared for those
Yeah, and? In the HOTH operation, if they used suicide tactics, they would destroy the WHOLE AT-AT advancing force and DELAY the advance. It's not a matter who runs out of AT-ATs or snowspeeders. There were 6 AT-ATs and a few dozen snowspeeders. They could have DELAYED the Empire, because THAT was the task.
-the empire has none of your chassises you expect it to have
If THAT is true, the Empire is just lame.
If the could not make the repulsorlifts more heavily armored, they are LAME. And if they did not understand that at HOTH they need SPEED, not STRENGH of armor, then it means they are lame.
The Empire does NOT understand the concept of blitz and thus is incredibly incompetent in warfare.
So this excludes AT-AAs and those chassises of yours.
If they did not have AA support, aicraft support and chassis to get air and repulsor units under SHIELD, which is a common defensive measure in SW, they are lame.
that it doesn´t carry AT-AAs or those chassises of yours, that would permit to bring repulsorvessels below a shield.
Military and technological incompetence. I am awed
that the empire DIDN`T worry about enemy aviation, because it would have been useless
First of all, that means the Empire UNDERESTIMATED the Rebels, as it ALWAYS did. Lame. Second, it means they did NOT take any lessons from the Kalaan battle in Force Commander and many battles after that. Sheer horror.
Absolutely NOTHING
Exactly. And as the Empire HAD pre-Hoth incidents with AT-AT destroyed by snowspeeders, what in the Galaxy did they THI

 

Forget about the line of SPAHTs blowing all those Muunilist buildings in the first CW cartoon. It's just a cartoon, nothing more. Not meant to be taken seriously.

Check out how the lance droids on speederbikes blow up big stalking AT-TEs with nothing more than a stab and graze of a lance. Or the Durge nonsense in the end. Or the Calamari battle.

The cartoon is designed for humour, not serious and logical actions.

 

Well, there are two remarks about the rebel-alliance during the time on Ralltir, but that doesn´t necessarily make the rebels on Ralltir part of the Alliance - although the possibility is given. The first could easily just refer to TK-622s thoughts on the matter, the second, that if the rebellious elements on Ralltir won´t succeed, at least the rebel-alliance will.

If they truly are members of the rebel-alliance, this would be a hint, that the RA isn´t such a good/moral organisation as always claimed - but that should be nothing new for somebody, who can read between the lines.

Well, if we believe the ISB the imperial ARMY (a different branch from the Stormtroppers) doesn´t use walkers at all. This suggest, that the walkers are primilary used for quick assault-operations by the Stormies.

This changes nothing. The empire probabely conducted hundreds of such assault WITHOUT such losses given the circumstances of said losses.

In that case they had no idea, that a farmboy would come up with an idea to destroy ONE of their walkers, that they would loose another one to a suicide-attack (which also wasn´t 100% successful, since both Veers and Hobbie survived) and that the farmboy from the first would also find a way and had the means available to destroy a third walker.

How often do i have to repeat that?

If the tactics used to destroy the walkers were that easy to come up with and to execute, don´t you think, that somebody else in that big, big galaxy during the twenty years the empire used walkers would have thought of them before?

Or that the empire wouldn´t have faced those so often, that they would have developed a way to counter them.

In any case, if we believe WEGs RASB there were 1,900 ground-soldiers on Hoth. I would guess most of them died, but until we get exact numbers, we won´t know for sure.

Obviously you bought the idea, that the empire doesn´t care about its men. The forces sent were enough to succeed at the given task and lost perhaps 50% or not more than 500 soldiers. More forces with ordinary tanks would have probabely suffered a lot more causalities - the rebels seemed to have been prepared for everything with exception of a walker-attack. That suggests, that their weapons in the trenches would have been enough to deal with tanks (if such were expected).

Right. And you only have to turn those, when you have already surpassed your

 

FTeik,
I guess that is implied they are from the Alliance. Of course, there is a possiblity they are NOT, and say that the Rebel Alliance will win. But that looks strangely.
but that should be nothing new for somebody, who can read between the lines
Yes, that is not new as we know, all Rebel-POV stories are considered to be written by Rebel historians, that means they "tweak" history to make the RA look positive.
the ISB the imperial ARMY (a different branch from the Stormtroppers) doesn´t use walkers at all
Rather strange. In "Empire 16-18", the Imperial Army company has walkers (modified "topless" AT-TE transport) and Juggernauts.
Stormtroopers are elite infantry, a special organisation. They're the ones not supposed to have walkers.
The empire probabely conducted hundreds of such assault WITHOUT
I know at least one assault with casualties Kalaan.
somebody else in that big, big galaxy during the twenty years the empire used walkers would have thought of them before?
And de-facto they used in pre-ANH time at Kalaan.
I would guess most of them died, but until we get exact numbers, we won´t know for sure.
Well it is clear the Rebel losses were 10 times higher. The Empire lost no spaceships at Hoth, the Rebels lost 17 that is already a thing.
The point is, someone escaped. Given the losses and etc. they should've conducted the operation faster. The goal was not achieved. A decimation of the base is not the decimation of the Rebellion. The Rebel leaders were allowed to escape, which led to the chase in asteroids. And that costed some ships!
Obviously you bought the idea, that the empire doesn´t care about its men.
No. I bought the idea the Empire wants Rebels DEAD rather than escaped to be chased after.
That suggests, that their weapons in the trenches would have been enough to deal with tanks
They did not deal with the AT-AT. What makes one suggest that the Empire didn't have something as armored, but not that high and clumsy?
And you only have to turn those
That is different from turning the whole vehicle. Especially if it's a heavy 22m walker.
In other (more friendly) enviroments or terrains they probabely come with Infantry-support.
That is what I thought. The Empire did train the snowtroopers... but what the sake? A few hundred died in the bellys of AT-ATs. They could have supported the AT-AT, and prevented Luke's attempt. That would have given their deaths more meaning.
But Veers and Vader didn´t have AT-TEs in the storage-rooms of their ships.
Guh. The Empire's military in ESB is technically regressive. No specialisation. Horrid. In "Empire" comics and games they seem to have a very diverse force composition.
AT-TEs probabely wouldn´t have the ability to destroy the shield-generators from 18 kilometers distance.
Why not? It's a plane. Blaster bolts don't care. Aiming is a problem of sensors, which surely would be upgraded to ESB-time standards.
The gunner of the AT-TE-turret would have been vulnerable
Mind you. The gunner is optional. The gun is operated from inside with a targeting computer. There is no gunner in the movies. The EU says he's not necessary.
The armour of the AT-TE couldn´t have been as thick as the one of the AT-AT
It seems even visually more robust. If it's not about thickness, then WTH the Empire did not upgrade the armor?
It can destroy all the other vehicles from further away without getting harmed.
He'd destroy a 100 kph fast repulsorlift? Doubt that. It would be running circles around the AT-AT.
If that is such a common practice among rebels
I said they could. But they decided they would try to preserve their lives.
Perhaps they DON`T think them necessary because
Because they gave the Rebels on Hoth time to evacuate with their slow vehicles. Brilliant. Instead of decimating them quickly, with aviation, with overkill...
that there are practical limitations to repulsorlifts with armour
Are there? The MTTs ar

 

Yes, that is not new as we know, all Rebel-POV stories are considered to be written by Rebel historians, that means they "tweak" history to make the RA look positive

Eh>? since when? Only the oness described as in in universe (the essential guides) are by Rebel authors. The novels usually have an omnicient narrator.

Forget about the line of SPAHTs blowing all those Muunilist buildings in the first CW cartoon. It's just a cartoon, nothing more. Not meant to be taken seriously.

Aye, but whose to say they couldn't do that? Do you doubt the ability of the beam to rip through multiple buildings, tearing them to shreds? After what I've seen in AotCs, I don't.

I'd like to point out that the walkers had anti air support in the form of AT AAs which were armed anti starfighter proton torpedoes. For whatever reason though, they were held back (probaly because they saw the Rebels weren't going to deply starfighters and there was no point then in risking the AT AAs to Rebel fire)

Source: Force Commander and Galactic battlegrounds

Also, remember that while the TIE is used in atmosphere combat, it's not particularly good at it. It's not very aerodynamic and in one source it was revealedc that a TIE jinking one way too hard could actually rip off its panels in atmosphere. We also the know that TIes are notoriously sensitive to maneuvers.... just how dangerous would it be for a TIE chasing a transport through a shield? OOps shields back up. splat. Or a TIE maneuvering and just happens to apply a bit too much power. Careens right into the shield. The airspeeder pilots don't worry about this. Their ships can only go so high. A TIE pilot though would be tempted to to use his ship's superior capabilities which in the Hoth battle could be fatal.

Yes, TIEs are used in atmosphere but only reluctantly. Also remember that in the beginning the Empire couldn't know what the Rebellion would throw at it. If the Rebels had X wings ( a much more stable craft in atmosphere), the X wings would actually have the advantage in atmosphere. Couple that with the shield and the TIE effectiveness may have been severely hampered. The AT AAs were likely the better choice in case of X wings. This allows the TIEs from Executor and other ships which had captains wise enough to not underestimate their enemy and had TIEs prepared, to be devoted to blockading space.

The fact that the AT AAs were held back during the last leg of the Imperial march to Echoe Base, shows that the Imperials believed the speeders to be an insignificant threat.

One more bit of info. According to the Galactic Battlegrounds databank, Veers was aware of the threat the speeders posed thanks to Davin Felth. Though he arranged to have Felth quieted, he did not ignore the trooper's lesson. During the battle, Veers deployed the AT ATs so that they could cover each other from the speeder attacks. He also used the AT STs for escort and their job was to get the speeders when the AT ATs couldn't. According to the galactic battlegrounds databank, if Veers had not done this casualties for the AT Ats would have been MUCH higher. Now we're operating under the assumption that there were only six AT ATs and four were destroyed. This would seem to conflict with the GBGs databank. If that's true, casualties for the AT Ats were pretty high. Almost the entire force was wiped out. Judging by the databank, I think we should assume more than six AT ATs were landed.

The Rebellion era sourcebook says a Squad of AT ATs was landed. Though it doesn't have to be, a squad is usually 12 units in Star Wars. This would make more sense in regards to the GBGs databank. Only 1/3 of the AT AT Force would have been lost while 2/3 would have survived. That would better fit the line in GBGs databank.

Now that we know that Veers was aware of the threat the speeders posed, let's analyse the implications of that fact. Veers either requested TIEs and was denied because there were so few ready and they were needed in space, or he did not see a need for TIEs. Or there was really no pra

 

I think we agree, that with high probability they belong to the RA. However there is still the slight possibility, that they aren´t. Just to give the RA the benefit of the doubt, that they wouldn´t use suicide-tactics or attack non-combatants

Just because it isn´t mentioned in the book, doesn´t mean, that this isn´t the case. In any case its a good thing, that we finally see some army-personal. Otherwise one would be tempted to think, that the stormtroopers are the only groundsoldiers the empire has.

More something like the Waffen-SS. And they are the ones, who are doing all the heavy blitz-assaults. As we have seen in TESB.

But how significant were those? How much out of was lost? Do you know details of that battle. Will look what i find ...

[/quote]
somebody else in that big, big galaxy during the twenty years the empire used walkers would have thought of them before?
And de-facto they used in pre-ANH time at Kalaan.[/quote]

But obviously without consequences. The empire didn´t change its tactics, the rebels at Hoth newly developed a trick, that should have already been known.

Why do you think someone would have NOT escaped, had the imperials been faster?

The moment the empire attacks the rebel-defenses with much more personal and vehicles, not to mention speed the important people are put into starships and try to escape all at once, while the imperial ground-forces are still busy with the ordinary RA-soldiers. Perhaps the rebelsships even split and try to leave the planet from different points. DeathSquadron had only thirty ships and that is not enough to totally blockade the planet. If the rebels stayed together the same would have to be true for the empire, since otherwise a few ships might escape. If the rebels split up, the imperials would have to do the same, what creates huge holes in their blockade. Again some ships of the rebels would escape.

True. Luke Skywalker escaped.

No, they were not. And the destruction of Echo-Base was an almost devastating blow. The rebels had to leave the galaxy and to met above the galactic bulge.

But if you want them for interrogation you need them alive. That means, even if you want them dead, you can´t kill them. YOu have to fight with gloves, so to say.

You´re the one to give that proof. You claim, that the empire could have made the assault with something better. Now please show with what.

Correct. And that means, that the walkers usually don´t have to worry about attacks from behind. Most kind of ambushes wouldn´t hurt them and those that could have to be noticable enough, that the crew of the walker or the

 

You have to love GBS.