ST How TROS Has Affected Your View Of The ST Films

Well, RJ said Rey is the “audience surrogate” so yes Luke *was* talking directly to the audience….

 

I dunno. I think that might be how you perceive it. After all, it does make sense Luke would probably would have this knowlege by this point. its 30 years after episode 6. He likely knows alot of things at this time.

Whether you want to say Rian did alot of meta talk to the audience. Which lets be honest. all of the ST films are guilty of that. But id argue Luke referencing Darth Sidious is probably one thats fits.

Personally if someone had told me before TLJ that Luke was gonna reference Palpatine. id have said they will just acknowledge him as The Emporer. Because "Palpatine" is PT and "The Emporer" is safer and won't offend anyone who dislikes the PT. And i would have felt referencing him as "The Emporer" would have been more forced for Luke at that time, as its ignoring that The Emporer had a name. He had 2 names infact. The guy who schemed to down taken the Jedi wasn't called the Emporer.

 

Yeah, Luke references Darth Sidious once, implying that he went back and learned all about the PT Jedi history and what went down, and basically came away with the wrong lesson. He makes it seem like it was all the Jedi's fault for all the evil in the galaxy. Just like he blames Obi-wan for Anakin's fall, and his training. (And Obi-wan blaming himself, makes sense. He feels responsible for his role in it. For not doing more. For losing his old friend. But Luke should know better. Anakin made the choice. Just like he made the choice to be good again)

I think this is a RJ thing. I can't tell if he personally believes it, but he seems to be saying that the tug of war between light and dark, good and bad, is the good guy's fault. Bad will be bad so you can't blame them. Which is why he has Luke "nobly" and erroneously, quit being a hero.

Luke should have gone back and learned the Jedi history, after the events of ROTJ, for sure. (Maybe even with a little help from Ghost Dad.) But not to learn that the Jedi suck and need to be extinct. That makes Luke incredibly stupid, and only serves Palpatine's goal.

 

Luke in TLJ seems to want to pass off his own failings as inherent flaws with the Jedi as a concept. The issue with his arc is that, as far as the film is concerned, he's not wrong. When Luke finally has a conversation with Yoda, it's just about him working past his failings. No one ever brings up that Luke was inherently wrong to have blamed the Jedi in the first place. The film is telling us that the Jedi were to blame for Sidious rising to power and Anakin falling to the dark side.

 

Luke’s reaction was childish. He wasn’t wrong to point out that Palpatine hid right under their noses and that they failed to stop him. The prequel era Jedi knew that themselves. Heck if Obi-Wan or Yoda left any kind of journal for Luke to find, they probably pointed out their own overconfidence.

But neither of them believed the Jedi needed to die off. I think perhaps the regretted that the Jedi had become more a political arm rather than a spiritual body that always did the right thing.

But even in the OT they’re still making mistakes by insisting Luke kill Vader. Luke doesn’t believe that’s right. Obi-Wan tells him then Palpatine won. But Luke proves Obi-Wan wrong. By refusing to fight Vader, Vader is redeemed and Palpatine dies.

It’s an incremental evolution in the right direction learning from mistakes along the way. Then when Luke fails all he sees is the failures, not the victories, and he wants to destroy the Jedi and leave the rest of the Galaxy to bear the burden of his failure.


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Characters learn from their own mistakes, as well as the past, in the OT

in the ST it’s all just lip service to make us think they are.

 

There's also zero logic in the idea, that if the Jedi should end, because they're part of the problem, the solution is to let the Jedi go extinct, while two wannabe Sith are still at large.

 

I think the idea is that training jedi creates the possibility of more sith. If no force users are trained... Then no possibility of more sith.

Which really was the point of the no attachment rule. The sith were extinct because they wiped themselves out and the jedi were able to keep things stable with no attachments being trained at a young age.

 

Again. I think it's some 8th grade nihilistic bs evil is natural and going to exist, fighting it just continues the endless cycle. Evil exists because of the failings of good people. And while that could have turned into something deeper - like say Neo realizing he needs to stop fighting Agent Smith so he can actually destroy him in the last Matrix movie - in TLJ, it's just stupid. And childish. And wrong. And not SW.

If that's the case, then Luke should have cleaned up his mess before going into retirement. That way there's no Sith out there. Should have acted like an adult, instead of a child. In th end, it was just an excuse not to act. Because he was a coward.

 

I think fell into a deep depression. which presumably would affect someone's mental state. i say presumably, but really it would.

 

Now you're using mental health as a shield from criticism.

I don't think that's fair. It basically ends the debate.

Luke wasn't depressed. And depression doesn't go away on the fly after a green gnome guilt trips you for five minutes. And not after Jedi Therapist whips your ass violently.

In reality, Luke knew he was wrong and was making excuses for his mistakes. He was actively doing whatever he could to justify his inaction. That's cowardness, not depression. Because he was afraid of failing again.

 

And what would be the downside of trying to stop Snoke and Kylo Ren? If Luke failed, he would die anyway, which is what he wanted. So, the whole Jedi need to end schtick was a badly thought out reason for Luke's inactivity, unless the point was for him to seem like a coward.

 

At least that Luke would have been someone who believed his own BS. Killing off the Sith, and then leaving the Jedi extinct to get rid of the cycle.

But Luke was just scared and ashamed.

 

I ain't using anything as a shield. Everyone looks at Star Wars and likes to explain how characters are feeling or thinking. And luke has a reason to be depressed.

 

No you’re using mental health to shield off criticism.

Depression is a neuro-bio-chemical imbalance that is largely outside of ones control and based on a number of issues resulting in mood change and disinterest in daily activities. Luke may have had a change in mood, but did plenty of activities during his days; namely fully taking care of himself, fishing, drinking, etc, and kept a busy lifestyle on that island. His life was not impaired outside out of a couple of huff and puffs.

Depression also just doesn’t just go away w a pep talk. Or guilt trips. And over coming depression doesn’t happen that way either.

Luke just didn’t want to be a professional Jedi again because he failed one time. He was ashamed, and scared of failing again, and created BS excuses to quit his job and retire early. These decisions, as well as lying to himself, and not being true to himself, left him deeply unhappy. That’s the mood we see: which is a classic SW theme. That is why Yoda’s 2 min pep talk worked.

 

Well that sounds more like 1 form of depression. Depression can come in many forms. Its like someone whose too depressed to live the house. doesn't mean they ain't eating or drinking. They just feel hopelessness and no motivation

I mean its not really a subject that needs heavy reading into. Luke clearly has lost something. He has lost faith. He even maybe haunted by his own actions. It just seems to be whats going on with Luke. Which probably would be like depression.

 

If Luke has depression then the writer or the movie's answer to heal him, or get him out of that depression, is horrifically bad. Which, I guess seeing as the rest of TLJ turned out, and doesn't understand the themes it espouses, probably makes sense.

Depression isn't really saga theme. Throwing that into the mix in the second to last episode is curve ball. It doesn't link to anything that comes before it. But not being true to yourself, and the path that one takes while not listening to their heart is a fundamental theme to the saga. In the exact same way that Anakin became Vader, and subjected himself to a horrific dark life, by choosing give into his fears, to ignore his heart, his passions, and the force (That's J. Campbell right there!) This is exactly what Luke is doing on that island.

But if you want to believe that Luke has depression, then none of this is really his fault. Because he has a mental health issue that is largely out of his control and he's suffering from a psychological and chemical imbalance that cannot just 'be fixed' by guilt trips and angry Jedi Therapist who try to fight him. If you want to insist that Luke has depression, than you're also taking one of the very few things about the movie that work, and wrecking it. Cool.

 

Well thats debatable. Thats like saying if you are depressed you can't do anything to fix that. you can, Its why people go to therapy.

People can get out of depression. But the how's usually vary.

 

That’s mot what I said. I said you don’t have control over it. You can’t just turn it off like Luke does after a single pep talk.

And what is that chat about? failure. when he finally realizes he’s made the wrong choice and needs to follow his heart and open up back to the force and he’s needed.

if it were depression it would be something else entirely. It’s about Luke finding himself again and being true to the light. In the same way his father came back to the light.

 

Id say its not exactly the same. Luke hasn't joined the dark side. He is just having a loss of faith. If you wanna call it that.

And i don't see why there wouldn't be depression involved here. you would have to categorize the idea by one sorta meaning.

 

I don't know, if anyone else made this connection, but for all my misgivings about TLJ, it was TROS that moved the saga into self-parody territory.



Twenty years earlier in Thumb Wars: "We escaped somehow..."

 

TROS has become very meme worthy

 

I think every Star Wars film is in its own way