If Anakin lost midichlorians when losing his limbs then...

Before Anakin lost his limbs and got burned up he had more midichorans then anyone that has ever lived but after he lost his limbs and got burned up he got much weaker, All of his limbs are robotic so he has less then Yoda so that makes Yoda the stronger one.

 

so that makes Yoda the stronger one.

Its tough to beat the limberness of frogs legs, even 900 year old frogs legs.

 

Obviously we don't want to attack each other, just state the facts and make our points, but what are you talking about??? There are no references anywhere to back up what you just stated. Anakin has more MC's per cell then Yoda and still has more mass than Yoda, even with half him limbs gone.

 

A jedi need midichorians and the living has them, when Anakin is in the suit all his limbs are machine now, Yoda has not lost his limbs so he still has all of his midichorians, Anakin was going to be the most pwerful jedi but he lost his limbs and midichlorians, the more midichorians a jedi has the more the jedi has connection with the force. Since Anakin lost his he can no longer be the most powerful.
Geoge Lucas said that he has lost his ability to be the most powerful and said that "he is more machine now"

 

I already explained this twice. Anakin STILL HAS MORE midi-chlorian than Yoda. More total and more per cell. That's not even questioned. In case you haven't noticed Yoda is tiny, he doesn't have much mass to start with.


OBI-WAN : Strange. The transmission seems to be in good order, but the
reading's off the chart...over twenty thousand.
QUI-GON : (almost to himself) That's it then.
OBI-WAN : Even Master Yoda doesn't have a midi-chlorian count that high!


Midi-chlorians are in their whole body not just there arms and legs??? Where are you getting that from? Anakin has over twenty thousand in the drop of blood, most likely a cellular count, not his whole body. Just because Qui-Gon pulled it from his finger, it doesn't mean that midi-chlorians are only in Jedi fingers. They are in the blood, which flows throughout the body.

 

Qui-gon pulled it from his arm


Size does not matter Yoda is the strongest one on the coucil and he has more midichlorians then anyone, George lucas even said that dath vader's robotic lims do not have midichlorians.

 

Again, I must say first that I love the entire saga. I don't hold the OT in higher regard than the PT. As I hate ewoks in RoTJ, I hate Midichlorians in the PT.

So Vader can't shoot force lightning. Is force lightning THE measure of force power? He force choked someone over a viewscreen for christ sakes! As good of a duelist as he used to be? Perhaps not. However, he still has the HIGHEST CONCENTRATION OF MIDICHLORIANS. If Jedi needed to be big to be more powerful why didn't they pump themselves full of growth hormones?

From what we see in the movies....not commentary....not novels...we are spoon fed to assume that midichlorian concentration is the be all end all of force power. As far as force power, in my mind, burnt Vader should still be the most powerful. In fact, he should be powerful enough to manipulate his prosthetic limbs to do what he wants them to do. Lucas could have said "He lost faith in his abilities, making him less powerful" and I would have felt that to be more believable. Losing midichlorian concentration because he lost his limbs is not acceptable to me.

Carnage

 

Darth_BamBam said that Yoda is tiny to illustrate precisely that size matters not Icestar63. If you go by more cells = more midis, thus Anakin is lessened by losing his limbs, then you run into the problem that he still has more mass than Yoda. Strength in the Force is not a sum of your parts, it is reflected within each and every cell. And no one in their right mind is saying the robotic limbs have midichlorians in them. And whether the blood was taken from a finger or an arm has no bearing on the point.

 

He has Midichlroians in his cells still. But he does not have as many cells as before. How hard is that to comprehend?

So let me get this. If you don't like a concept, then the creator is probably wrong. Even though they know their creation better than the fans. Right. I like this line of thinking.

Who cares? The point is made. Vader has lost his limbs and been burnt. As a result, he's weaker. Coulda, woulda, shoulda. It's done. Deal with it or not. Why are you so obsessed with this?

 

I agree, Vader/Anakin is a lot weaker after the duel and that makes Yoda stronger then Vader/Anakin because Vader is crippled.

 

Hey qoute Master Lord Sinister,

We need that qoute where Lucas talks about Darth Mustafar Vader being weakened to the extent that he as powerful as Maul and Dooku.

Do you have it? It is relevant here.

 

"And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

--George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

 

BAM, you are the man, that's the one.

Maul, Tyrannus and suited Vader were like three distinct components of Mustafar Vader. When Obi-Wan maimed him, Mustafar Vader became just another lackey like Tyrannus and Maul.

 

I agree

 

Hmmmmm I'm mixing up two qoutes here.

In one, I remember him saying Suited Vader is 80 percent the power of Sidious.

In the one just posted, Lucas says Mustafar powerhouse Vader became just a flunky like Dooku and Maul.

Logical inference suggests that, if Dooku and Maul are like suited Vader, who is 80 percent the power of Sidious, likewise, Dooku and Maul are 80 percent.

 

Its all about concentration, not if you lose a limb. Yoda's concentration was higher than Mace's, Mace was twice the size, hence, because Yoda's concentration was not twice as high as Mace's, he should have been less powerful, right? No.

Say Yoda is around 17,000, Mace is about 13,000
Mace is a about 200 pounds, Yoda being close to 40.

200*13000 = 2.6 million 40*17000 = 680,000

If you go by total cells, Mace, and many other jedi that are larger in body mass, would destroy Yoda. Vader lost agility, speed, and most importantly, confidence. His concentration was just as high, and if you still use the ridiculous "losing limbs is losing cells and consequently power" theory, he would still be more powerful than Yoda assuming that his limbs did not account for about 70% of his body mass. You do lose cells when you lose a limb, but gross cells cannot be related to how powerful a jedi is, as in that case, would not an extremely obese jedi wield tremendous power? No, because of the lack in speed and agility that comes with being obese - similar to that which comes with losing every apendage. Just as a side note, the theory that the cells lost would account for the loss in power is even further negated by the fact that OT Vader most likely weighed more (less his robotic components) that Anakin did at any time during the PT, given that OT Vader has a massive upper body.

 

"Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful, but he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there?s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he?s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor. So that isn?t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the Dark Side. You?ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no."

--George Lucas, quoted in J. Windolf, ?Star Wars: The Last Battle,? Vanity Fair, 2005

"He's so overwhelming in that first film, but you get to the point where you say, "Wait a minute, if he's so powerful, why doesn't he run the universe?" He even gets pushed around by the governors! They know the Emperor is the final word, so what happens is the same thing that happens in any corporation: Everybody worries about the top man, they don't worry about his goon. And by the time the Death Star is finished, it gives them the sense that they have a bigger, better suit than Darth Vader. In a standoff between the Death Star and Darth Vader, they have no question about who would win, and it's not this mumbo-jumbo Sith guy. So it's even more tragic, because he's not even an all-powerful bad guy, he's kind of a flunky."

--George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview 2005.

"At this point, Vader?s plan really, now that he knows he?s his son, is to convince him to come with him. Join the Dark Side and together they?re going to overthrow the Emperor, which is the thematic devices used through the whole movies in terms of the Sith, which is Sith Lords are usually no more than two because if there are three, then two of them will gang up on one to try to become the dominate Sith. Anakin would have been able to do it if he hadn?t been debilitated and now he?s half machine and half man, so he?s lost a lot of the power of the Force, and he?s lost a lot of his ability to be more powerful then the Emperor. But Luke hasn?t. Luke is Vader?s hope. His motives at this point are purely evil. He simply wants to continue on what he was doing before which is get rid of the Emperor and make himself Emperor. He only sees his son as a mechanism for the ambition. His mad lust of power."

--George Lucas, TESB DVD Commentary.

"And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

--George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

"The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice; whic

 

He has Midichlroians in his cells still. But he does not have as many cells as before. How hard is that to comprehend?

How hard is it for you to comprehend this. Concentration stays the same: little Anakin (who at that time was read to have more midis than Yoda) has a higher but comparable amount of CELLS as big Anakin, minus limbs, does. This is why making your Force potential equal to the sum total of midis in your body still wouldn?t explain Anakin being weaker after Mustafar. Size doesn?t matter. But YOU imply that it does by assuming losing a number of cells = loss of Force affinity. Or perhaps you?re not aware of what you?re saying; you want to say mass doesn?t matter yet losing his extremities does matter. Hmmm. Do you realize that in general more mass = more cells? Or maybe you think the cells just get really really big; that Yoda and a Hutt have the same exact amount. I can only guess what you got in high school biology. I yet again challenge you to rationally support your argument, which you can?t, other than vomiting quotes like a fundamentalist that fail to actually advance the point at all; the statement it is indefensible.

So let me get this. If you don't like a concept, then the creator is probably wrong. Even though they know their creation better than the fans. Right. I like this line of thinking.

No, if the plot point given in an interview is contrary to the established concept given in the films, which are the only cannon, and cannot be supported by logical reasoning or evidence from the movies, than it is wrong. For directors? commentaries are little better than the EU; plenty of times they can exaggerate or make statements in interviews that are somewhat questionable about their own work. In responding to your rather sad response to me, I pointed out as an example a time Lucas? friend Coppola made an untenable statement about the Godfather movies. And Star Wars is not merely Lucas? creation, just like the Godfather wasn?t merely Coppola?s; Lucas owes so much to Kurosawa, Asimov, Herbert, von Reichenbach, Buck Rogers, and Campbell. He creates a concept meant to echo real life in the midichlorians, just as he echoes the Od, chi, and Prana with the Force. Why do we critique or analyze movies at all then Sinister, if we cannot hope to come close to the ?creator?s? understanding of it, who you seem to hold as infallible.

Who cares? The point is made. Vader has lost his limbs and been burnt. As a result, he's weaker. Coulda, woulda, shoulda. It's done. Deal with it or not. Why are you so obsessed with this?

You care quite obviously. There is no ?point.? You have no point. You have a claim, a position, but you cannot elaborate upon it nor substantiate it with the films. And I am not obsessed at all, I just don?t take kindly to your bullying people with quotations and hubris every time they ask this question and others: why are you so obsessed with it? You also have little right to even respond to me when you have not responded on the Dark Lord thread. Though I?m sure you?ve seen it, you just can?t come back with anything.

 

Yeah, thats what I was trying to say. Anyway, if you look at OT Vader, he is bigger and more massive than he had been in ROTS when he had all his limbs, he has more cells, but he is still less powerful. You guys who that claim losing cells = losing power yet body mass has no bearing on power are really contradicting yourselves.

 

the existance of the midi's is simply Lucas' explanation of the physicality force since he really only covered the spiritual aspects in the OT ... the Midi's explain why some are more attuned to the force than others, namely how strength in the force has been passed down the Skywalker line ...

As for why VADER has lost potential after ROTS it's simple ... Obi-Wan said the force was "created by (and obviously the product of)all living things" and yoda said "life creates [the force], makes it grow" ... Anakin is no longer much of a living thing, thus he has lost some of his connection and/or talent for the force ...

 

Try it like this. Lucas has a theme about symbiosis in the Star Wars films. The Force and the Midichlorians work together for a mutual advantage. The Force creates life and makes it grow, but the Midichlorians make it possible for life to exist. As Qui-gon says, if there are no Midichlorians then life cannot exist. So both work together to create life in general for the GFFA. We know that the Midichlorians make it possible for the Jedi to hear the will of the Force. We know that when there is a significant amount of Midichlorians, one can start to develop an affinity for the Force. If there are more Midichlorians in one's system, the greater their connection to the Force is. Which in turn translates that they could become Jedi. Anakin Skywalker, who has the highest concentration of Midichlorians in his cells, has the greatest potential to become the most powerful Force user alive. But here is where the catch comes in. Anakin has been messed up by Obi-wan. Now as you would define it, it makes no sense. But then, there are two things you must consider.

1. Lucas uses pesudo science in Star Wars. Science that works for the sake of the movie and is very loosely based on fact. Much of the fiction is realistically impossible. Sound in space cannot happen unless there is an atomsphere. Same with fire in space. The rules of science dictates that traveling faster than light would not be the same as it is in Star Wars. In the case of the Midichlorians, this is the same way. It is loosely based on Mitochondria, but Lucas isn't entirely bound by the rules of science either. Meaning if he wants to change something to fit the nature of his story, he's more than welcome to it. The fact that he's done that in the Saga to date is proof of that. Size and mass have nothing to do with this concept.

2. Midichlorians are a side issue. They are there for certain purposes, but they're side issues in the larger picture. They mainly serve a purpose as he needs them to and that's all.

With that in mind we get to my point. By losing his limbs and being burned up, Anakin loses his power. You say, how is that possible given the rules of science. Well, this is not about the rule of science. This is about symbolism. Anakin becomes more machine than man, twisted and evil. That translates into his losing his humanity. But there's another one. Anakin loses his symbiotic connection to the Force, in a sense. By having his body parts severed from his body, the perfect symboitic organism is now imperfect. He is no longer whole. He is no longer capable of being what he could've been. As Obi-wan says to Boss Nass, what affects one affects the other. Losing his body parts affects Anakin's connection to the Force. It's still there, but he feels the Force not quite like he used to. It's not about sword fights because of phyiscal limitations. That's just addressed as missing limbs and a suit.

Here it's about what he could do with the Force. The great connection that one, who is only obsessed

 

midichlorians cannot be created or destroyed. I learned that in science class.

 

Vader is only big in the OT because Lucas hired a bodybuilder to play the part.

Doesn't the fact that Lucas would choose a bodybuilder for the part show that he imagined Vader as a very strong and muscular character? He was able to pick up the rebel officer at the beginning of ANH very easily. I assumed Vader had simply developed more muscle mass in between trilogies.

 

A bodybuilder was needed to wear a forty pound suit. That's why Lucas wasn't concerned with Prowse having an accent, much less how his voice sounded. Same with Ray Park as Darth Maul. Even Ian McDiarmid wasn't going to be the voice of Palpatine in ROTJ. Clive Revell was going to dub his voice over Ian's. But Ian convinced Lucas that his performence was just as adequate. Or Anthony Daniels who was only going to be the body and someone else would do the voice.

I would assume that a suit could be built around a normal sized actor, if Lucas wanted a regular actor and not a stuntman.