If Anakin went with Mace to arrest Palpatine, would he of turned?

Apparently there was a very good chance that Anakin would turn to the Dark Side, even if he accompanied Mace during the arrest, according to Mace: "I don't trust him." "I sense too much confusion in you [sic]." "[stay behind] for your own good." The bottom line is that Anakin's confession of Sidious's identity did impress Mace Windu, but Anakin's trustworthiness would only depend on the arrest of Palpatine and the unraveling of the Sith's power.

The point has been "made" several times in this thread that Anakin did not know the extent to which Mace and Sidious had fought before Skywalker arrived at the Chancellor's residence.
I have seen the movie. Anakin does indeed notice the bodies of the slain Jedi, before he encounters Mace and Sidious in the window. Also, Anakin was with Mace the moment his party left the Jedi Temple. Lord Sidious obvioulsy slaughtered every Jedi he could get his hands on. It sure wasn't Mace...

In the very end, we see Mace stand by his decision to not include Anakin in the arrest/capture/eradication of Sidious. He is warned to keep out of this affair, once again. Mace still does not totally trust Anakin, and obviously not without very good reason.

It is not Anakin who gets attacked by Sidious at all, at any point. It is Mace Windu who got the full effect of Sidious's "unlimited power" and died flung out into the Coruscant nightscape. Anakin may not have understood that he was participating in a role, but we cannot believe that Mace did not appreciate Anakin's extreme 'luck.' (Concerning Anakin's knowledge of Sidious's affairs and yet still breathing)
Also Mace said he trusted Anakin at the point of finding out who Sidious is. But that trust is definitely removed when Anakin did not do what Mace told him to do, simply wait.

Inevitably, for all intents and purposes, Anakin did go with Mace to arrest Palpatine [Anakin: "you can't kill him, you have to arrest him'], or so all of our characters believed.

 

I totally agree with this and I've been getting alot of flack for my opinion in other threads. But one of Anakin's problems is not feeling like he's part of the team. He obviously feels alienated from the Jedi and when he tries to do the right thing, he doesn't get help from anyone. He's desperately trying to hold on to the light side, he feels bad going aganist the code to spy on Palpatine and then sees Mace violate the code to kill Palps. But Anakin could have joined Palpatine right when he found out about his Sithliness, but decided to do the right thing. The desire IS there. If Mace had let him come a long and feel like he truly belonged in that group of Masters, he would have been less likely to sucumb to Palpatine. He would have actually seen Palpatine take down 3 Masters (who were trying to arrest, not kill him) in cold blood, instead the weak, dying charade he did see. If Obi-Wan or Yoda were there do you really think he would have sided with Palpatine, no matter what the cost to him?

 

If Obi-Wan or Yoda were there do you really think he would have sided with Palpatine, no matter what the cost to him?

Definitely not.

And you know what RS, my love for the Padme/Anakin rumination scene blinded me. For all the times i went against you in the "Mace/Anakin" debate, i never realised that the rumination scene wouldn't have even taken place had Anakin been allowed to go with him. That's a very important factor.

Had Anakin gone with the Jedi - regardless of whether Palpatine attacked them, he'd go in and act on his pure instinct instead of his rationalizations (Something "he knows, he cannot do") and for all of the negativity i see in him - i've always thought that his pure gut instinct was goodhearted.

Don't get me wrong, i'm still of the belief that Anakin wouldn't let Palpatine die; and that still would be based on unhealthy lust and fear on his part. But a combined Mace/Anakin vs. Palpatine would never even come close to getting provoked into drastic measures as Mace alone did (killing Palpatine). And even if Palpatine hadn't attacked them, he'd be arrested; sure, the trials would be a joke and the senate would probably be shaken up. But Yoda and Kenobi would return; and the Jedi Order would be united instead of "taken by suprise".

Hmmm, meditate on this, i must.

- O_F

 

I understand even better now as to why Anakin begin to believe Palpatine that the Jedi wanted to take over the Republic. He had already filled his head with this earlier, and so Anakin had that seed planted within him. Then he learns that Palpatine is a Sith, and of course does the right thing in going to tell Mace, though I think he should have killed him when he learned the truth about him, but Palps basically had him with the promise that he could save people from dying.

But Anakin fights through that and reports to Mace, but Mace's lack of trust in Anakin brings him to make the choice to not let him go. Anakin is left out from his point of view, because he tells Mace "I can help you"! At this point, Anakin for me was saying, "I am the Chosen One, I am to destroy the Sith"! Anakin for me has his eyes open that it was not by mere coincidence that he has come into a relationship with the Sith, and now learns the truth. I believe Anakin upon telling Mace the truth, he is ready to accept and fulfill his destiny. But Mace shuts him out, thus it causes Anakin to lose focus, and then he reverts back to thoughts of saving Padme.

So when he arrives, he is focusing on keeping Palps alive to save Padme, and no longer seeing himself as the Chosen One to destroy the Sith, and then he becomes twisted to really believe the Jedi are trying to take over the Republic.

I agree that quite possibly that mace should have taken Anakin with him, and trusted him to do the right thing.

Darth Sin!

 

Anakin for me has his eyes open that it was not by mere coincidence that he has come into a relationship with the Sith, and now learns the truth. I believe Anakin upon telling Mace the truth, he is ready to accept and fulfill his destiny.

That's not true. Anakin wanted Palpatine alive to learn the power to save Padme.

He also wanted justice, don't get me wrong. But he was not on the verge of fulfilling the prophecy. That's, still, exactly why Mace didn't bring him.

"I sense a great deal of confusion in you, Skywalker"

- O_F

 

Yes, Anakin would've turned because the situation would've still been the same.

"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204

The Jedi Master is winning when Anakin arrives, but Palpatine, as the scene has been rethought, now seizes the occasion to exaggerate his weakness.

--The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204.

"Mace was going to do the right thing by arresting him, but after Palpatine does the lightning, he changes his mind."

--George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS; page 204.

"You almost come a second too late. You're rushing over to make sure that nothing happens-but your anticipation is that they're going to hurt each other. When the lightning starts things are going from bad to worse from your point of view. And when Mace is going to kill him, you have to act."

"Try and increase how uncomfortable you feel as the shot goes on. Try to think back on the Darth Plagueis story-run that through your head. Take it one step further: you realize that by telling the Jedi about Palpatine being a Sith that Padme is going to die. Baiscally, you just killed her"

--George Lucas To Hayden Christensen, The Making Of ROTS.

"There's always this good in you. And the good part is saying 'what am I doing?'. Then the bad part kicks in and says 'I'm doing this for Padme, I'm doing this for the galaxy and so we can have a better life'. But the good part is always saying 'WHAT AM I DOING?!"

--George Lucas to Hayden Christensen, Hyperspace Webdoc.

So in essence, the same thing would've happened. Palpatine would've spun it around to his advantage. That the Jedi would try and execute him. Either way, Palpatine would make sure that Anakin realized that if he cannot have Palpatine out in the clear, then he cannot save Padme.

 

The most important thing to ANAKIN, unfortunately, was having the power to "cheat death/save Padme" NO ONE ELSE but Palpatine seemed to have it, Anakin would be damned if he let MACE kill Palpatine without learning the skill, so he would have turned NO MATTER WHAT!

If Mace knew ahead of time, all he had to do was ask "Did you ever hear the story of Jedi-Master Plageous the wise?"

 

If he knew, Mace would've told him that it was a lie designed by Palpatine to manipulate him. Whether it's true or not, isn't important, but what is important is that Mace would've tried to make it clear to Anakin that he's in no shape to make a sound judgement. Thus he'd have all the more reason to order Anakin to stay in the Temple.

 

The Padme/Anakin rumination scene is the heart of the turn. That's what I've been saying in the Mace/Sideous thread. It's what I've been telling people for months who said Anakin's turn was "too fast" and thinking it all came down to the Mace/Palpatine scene. In his heart, Anakin made the choice while sitting in that chamber pondering Padme. Not the choice to join the Sith and destroy the Jedi, but the choice to keep Palpatine alive in order to save Padme. And if Mace took him along that choice might not have been made....

 

Its irrelevant, Anakin had to turn
The only way this would happen would be if OBK and Yoda were absent as
these were the only two people he had any sort of relationship/respect for
So whether he went with Mace or not he would have turned. the whole story was his
turning, it was as good a point as any.

 

I dont think Anakin would have turned if Mace invited him to go with them to ARREST Palpatine. But if Mace tried to kill Palpatine, Anakin would have betrayed them

 

I'm sorry I don't have the dialogue committed to memory, but there is a small segment in the rumination scene where Anakin is hearing Palpatine's voice. Palps says something different than anything he's said to Anakin directly. Some may chalk this up to editing, but I think it was intentional, to show the audience that Palpatine is communicating to Anakin. That he was still trying to get Anakin to turn, even while the Jedi Posse was on it's way over to arrest him.

Had Anakin been with the posse on the way to the Senate, the opportunity for Anakin to hear Sidious may not have been there.

 

I think Anakin would have still turned, for all of the reasons already outlined. I think if he had gone with Windu to arrest Palps, it would've merely delayed the turn. The imminency of Palp's death forced him to choose on the spot.

 

I agree with you, this kind of explains also why I don't like Mace too much.

 

Actually I change my opinion, Anakins destiny was to become a Sith so regardless of whatever changes happen, Anakin will still become a sith

 

Yes he would have, but not neccessarily at that moment. There are many possibilities, but in the end, Anakins fear and anger will get the best of him. As long as Palps life is not in danger, (had Anakin been with the other 4 jedi) the turn could come later, but would still come.

The other part, is that a big part of Palps sceme, is the eradication of the jedi. He knows he can't do it himself. Anakin also needs to believe the jedi are taking over, Palps takes this chance by throwing the fight with Mace,(which I still think) and you can't take over the galaxy without taking chances. Note during the Obi Wan duel "from my point of view the jedi are evil", so when he sees a beaten Palps about to be slaughtered, not only does his loss of Padme get the best of him, but that also the jedi are up to no good, and trying to take over by force. The plan is two fold, having Anakin under his wing, yet not have him neccessarily against the jedi does little good, especially now that Anakin knows who he is. That current anger towards the jedi needs to be fed, as well as the fear of losing the wife. Otherwise you have the most powerful jedi ever as an appretice that doesn't need you anymore once his kids are born. The jedi have to be the bad guys to Anakin,plus Palps knows the biggest influences, Obi Wan and Yoda, the only ones that may keep him from turning, are off planet. So this is the absolute best time to make your move.

Or I'm just over analying and hair splitting. Need more coffee.

 

This is the question everyone should ask?

If Anakin doesn't go, and Mace then Kills Palpatine... Padme doesn't DIE.

She died because of what Anakin has become... a Sith Lord.... she DIES OF A BROKEN HEART.

If Mace kills Palpatine, and Anakin WOULD JUST LISTEN TO HIS MASTERS FOR ONCE... NONE OF THIS WOULD HAVE HAPPEND.

He killed Padme, when he became a Sith.

 

Anakin was always had anger and hate in him, he just needed a catalist to turn to the darkside and trying to save padme was what fully turned him

 

it probably would have gone down something like this:

~all five come into arrest palpatine
~palpatine, seeing anakin is there, doesnt want to look like a bad guy, so he surrenders
~this of course means no dead jedi, no fight, no cowering palpatine.

BUT

~during his arrest, and transportation to the temple palpatine talks to anakin, in front of the jedi
~he tells him they are traitors, and by helping mace and posse, anakin is assisting in treason without realizing it
~he tells anakin to break free of the jedi lies, while mace and crew tell him to shut up. they tell anakin to not listen to his lies
~anakin himself, begins wondering "what is happening here? am i betraying the republic?"
~palapatine begins scarring anakin, telling him, the jedi are lying, and have no intention of puting him up for trial, and that they wil kill him, which means his knowledge wil die with him.
~palpatine is detained, and anakin visits him, further being seduced
~somehow palaptine manages to manipulate another situation where his life "is on the line" and anakin must choose.
~in his greed, skylwaker chooses to betray the jedi


the only way ALL of this could have been avoided would have been if anakin had learned to let go, and made a conscience choice to resist palpatine's promises


so its a mute point. if anakin had listend to yoda, sidious would have been killed, no matter the place, situation, or if anakin had been allowed to go or not.

 

If he'd gone, he DEFINITELY would not have turned. He would have seen Sidious slaughter the other Jedi who went with Mace.

 

I think he would have still turned.
Palpatine wouldnt have put himself in that situation without backup plans.
If Anakin had turned up with the arresting posse, Palpatine could very easily have gone quietly.
Then with his control of the courts etc. have it look that the Jedi are indeed trying to take his power away etc. and back to square one. Jedi out of the way and Anakin to sedjuce.

 

Anakin wouldve turned no matter what, it was his destiny

 

"See this is what the 'yes' people on the "did Sidious allow Mace to win" thread just dont seem to understand....There was no reason for Sidious to throw the fight and it wouldnt have mattered if Anakin went in with them and witnessed the entire thing either because Anakin's choice was about saving Padme."

Yeah, that's one of a few mini-epiphanies I had the second time I saw the film. The first time, I took Anakin's spiel about Palpatine being allowed to stand trial at face value. But then, since when has Anakin had such respect for Jedi values when it comes to mercy for the enemy? Anakin, who has often given in to anger - and who certainly doesn't offer that same mercy to Dooku that he demands for Palpatine. No, as usual it was his own selfish reasons - Anakin was just looking for any excuse to justify keeping Palpatine alive to Mace so that he had a chance to save Padme. He already knew Palpatine was evil, he didn't need to see him killing Jedi for that.

Actually, I get the impression that half the stuff Anakin said to Obi-Wan on Mustafar was just him further trying to justify his actions, this time to himself more than anyone else. Convincing himself that the Jedi were evil, so that he could live with himself after slaughtering them. He was crying after killing the Separatist leaders; he knew what he was doing was wrong. Somewhere in his mind he knew, no matter how hard he tried to smother those feelings in his desparation to save Padme.. okay, rambling now. I'll stop. But we know there was still good in him, just hidden, from the events of the OT.

"Yeah, but what's really going to bake your noodle is:

If Anakin would have stayed back and if Mace would have killed Sidious (I believe he could have), would Anakin have turned anyway?"

Oooh, now there's a brain tickler if I ever saw one. Anakin definitely had plenty of Dark Side slips, with and without Palpatine's help. But then, Palpatine did create an environment in which Anakin would be able to properly turn, as opposed to just stumbling occasionally. Where he would be permanently and irrevocably committed to the Dark side. Because Anakin had always tried to be a good Jedi and follow the Light, even if he failed occasionally. What was it he said in AotC to Padme..? After killing the Tusken Raiders, she says something like "It's human to be angry," and he responds with "I'm a Jedi, I know I'm better than this."
So with Palpatine out of the picture, even if Anakin did kill Windu in a fit of rage - as he may well have, considering his emotional state at the time and the fact that he already seems to have little respect for Mace - would he then go on to become Darth Vader and still turn against the Jedi completely?

I doubt it.

As I said, my take on the matter was that Anakin never thought the Jedi were evil, only tried to convince himself after the fact. That confused babble about the Jedi betraying the Republic was a last-ditch attempt to assuage his own guilt. It was always his fear of losing Padme that drove him, not hatred of the Jedi - Palpatine was necessary to twist the former into the latter. Anakin may have slipped without Palpatine around, which was incredibly dangerous considering his powers and the fact that the other Jedi didn't seem to notice.. but as that little scene on Tatooine showed, he knew he shouldn't have. And so I doubt he would have ever fallen quite so far had Palpatine died.
Even in the film itself, he hesitates for a moment and asks "What have I done.." after stopping Mace. Palpatine is there to pounce on that moment of weakness, convincing him to slaughter the Jedi in the Temple, pushing him so far down this path that he has no chance of ever turning back. And that's the crucial point. Without that pressure to drive him past the Point of No Return, I think that after killing Windu Anakin would either have broken down or fled. Having lost, in his mind, any chance to save Padme, as well as disgracing himself in the eyes of the Jedi, he would be left with nothing and no-one

 

This is actuly a good thread and raises a good point, would Anakin have turned to the Darkside if he accompned mace to the arrest. I think things would of ended up diffrently another question is would Anakin kill Sidous after he just witnessed three jedi masters get killed by Sidous. The fight would be much diffrent thoes master would of still been most likly killed but it would be Anakin and Mace left, I could see Anakin killing Sidous after what he has done even though its agianst the jedi code reamber Anakin stays boarderlined on the Jedi Code. But I honestly beilive he would of Stayed with the Jedi. Mace made a terriable dicsion when not letting Anakin come, Anakin really did have alot respect for Mace. But ROTS showed making wrong choices can have dier consenquences for a world and a Galaxy. But then you got to think of Sidous lies telling the Jedi are going to betray the republic and if he killed him Padme will die. I think Mace should of appoarched when conversing with Anakin in Sidouses office like tell him "Did you see what he did killing three jedi without hesitation." maybe that would get him to think things over, I really not quite sure but he in my opinion he would of stayed with the lightside. but its all in the eye of the beholder we will never know.

 

No way Anakin would not turn to the darkside, like I said it was his destiny.

Even if Anakin did go with the Jedi and fought against Palpatine, Palpatine would just take out the other Jedi and leave Anakin alive, even if Anakin is fighting back. Im Sure Palpatine would talk Anakin into joining him because:
1. Anakin believes Palpatine knows the secret how to save people from dying
2. Its his destiny to become a Sith

Palpatine has Anakin brainwashed, it wont be hard for him to convince him. Anyways my whole story is meaningless because his fate will find its way towards the darkside