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PT If Maul wasn't stronger than Dooku, why Sidious didn't use Dooku earlier?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Erkan12, Nov 23, 2021.

  1. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    So really, when people talk about these GL quotes concerning Sifo-Dyas, it's kind of null and void then, huh?

    I mean, Sifo knowingly working for the Sith wasn't GL's headspace when he wrote any of the PT films. And it's not a part of the new Disney canon. So, it's just something GL toyed with, but never implemented. And I'm glad he never did because it doesn't seem to make any sense if you think about it longer than two seconds.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2022
  2. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    How do you know? Before he was made into a deceased Jedi, Sifo-Dyas was Sidious himself.

    And how does it not make any sense? It's all pretty straightforward.
     
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  3. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    Because his thoughts on Sifo-Dyas have changed throughout the years. Event scant research can lead you from GL making a typo all the way to Sifo-Dyas was knowingly working with the Sith. And no, I'm not going to do the research for you. You have the internet; have at it.

    You are currently posting in a thread where people are talking about how all the pieces don't line up.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2022
  4. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Aug 25, 2014
    sure, if you're the Fugaku super computer.
     
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  5. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    His thoughts have changed during development (like virtually everything can). It says nothing about what is actually established in the works themselves. So the question remains, how is any of it nonsensical? And no, I'm not going to research a claim that I never made and that isn't supported by the actual works.

    They don't line up according to the assumptions people are making. Not with what's actually established.
     
  6. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    Yes, and they can be tracked for the most part. We can figure out (almost to the day for some of this stuff) what GL's mindset was. My question was, if this wasn't in play during the writing of the movie AND Disney isn't paying it any mind in current canon, then what difference does it make?

    Saying, "GL said one of this thoughts out loud once" doesn't matter if the people currently making Star Wars aren't adhering to it.

    All we can talk about is GL's headspace because none of this is actual canon.

    You can go back and read through previous comments. I'm not going to waste my time copying and pasting comments just for you most likely ignore them anyway.

    Then find people who agree with you and go talk with them. I come in here to talk with people, not get into a debate. Go be Ben Shapiro somewhere else.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2022
  7. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    How do you know that it wasn't in play during the writing of the movie? Once Lucas decided to turn Sifo-Dyas into a deceased Jedi instead of Sidious himself, you know nothing about him other than what the movie tells us. And what the movie tells us doesn't contradict what Lucas happened to have revealed in this interview.

    Since when are the people currently making Star Wars all that matters? I'm sure it's all that matters to some people, but that's irrelevant. I for one don't care about what people currently making Star Wars. I care about what the guy who created Star Wars says though. You're free to ignore Lucas just like some of us are free to care.

    It's not Disney's canon.

    Your previous comment don't explain how it's nonsensical, so I'm going to take that as a lack of arguments.

    No. I don't need to find people who agree with me. I don't define my activity based on who agrees or disagrees with me. Not to mention that this is a forum, where people discuss their differing opinions with each other. If you can't handle that, you're free to not engage though.
     
  8. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    Lucas canon is over with. It has a beginning and an end. It encompasses the six films and everything concerning the CLONE WARS series (whether you want to include TCW post-Disney in with that is up to you).

    If me saying you need to put forth the effort to go back and read previous posts from myself and others is a lack of an argument, then that would mean if you asked me for a source and I handed you a book, but refused to read it out loud for you... that would also be a lack of an argument. I don't agree with that ""logic"".

    You asked a question. I proved a means to find an answer to that question. That's not a lack of an argument.

    Because they are, quite literally, the ones in charge of what is and isn't canon. If you're wanting to discuss canon, we can discuss canon. If you want to discuss hypotheticals, we can discuss hypotheticals. But I'm not going to engage in a conversation where the other person jumps back and forth between the two because what GL stated he wanted going forward from ROTJ and what LFL under Disney has done going forward from ROTJ more often than not contradict each other.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2022
  9. Darth Vahvistaa

    Darth Vahvistaa Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Feb 17, 2022
    Lord Maul was a Warrior, while Lord Tyranus had the potential to be a Sorcerer. Each has different advantages in the ranks of the Sith. Maul’s prowess as a brawler and duelist makes him a force to be reckoned with, however, Tyranus had mastered Force Lightning, a power we only have seen Palpatine use in the films. Tyranus is an accomplished duelist, Master of Makashi form, and strong in the dark side powers; this makes him a double threat. Maul is more aggressive in dueling, but as a Warrior he is the equivalent of a Jedi Guardian, which masters very little of the Force arts. For this reason Tyranus is stronger, because He can use Force Grip and hold an opponet in place or use bolts of lightning.
     
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  10. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 27, 2013
    Dooku is not the only one other than Sidious who used Force lightning in the films, even Force users who are not Sith, managed to use Force lightning. Both Snoke and then Rey used Force lightning too not only Dooku.
    If Force lightning was a sign of superior power then Rey wouldn't lose to Kylo Ren, when he never showed Force lightning.

    Another example would be Vader, who also never used Force lightning and was more powerful in the Force than Dooku.

    Force lightning wouldn't be a sign of superiority, it would be a different variant of dark side abilities, one specializes in different dark side ability and another specializes in different dark side abilities. They all specializes in Telekinesis ability as we all know (Maul too can hold his opponnents with Force and use Force grip) but Lightning and other abilities seems like just the variants of the dark side abilities.

    For example, Maul was a master manipulator as we've seen in the clone wars and Rebels tv show. He was even able to show illusions to a Jedi, Ezra Bridger. In the clone wars, his Force vision and his ability to read minds was incredibly powerful as he easily read the minds of the Clone troopers during the battle, and even see the future where Anakin becomes Sidious's new apprentice. Dooku never showed this level of Force visions, illusions and mind reading abilities.
     
  11. Darth Vahvistaa

    Darth Vahvistaa Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Feb 17, 2022
    That is true Rey used Force Lightning, but she is a Palpatine, so by extension the bloodline of the most famous user of Force Lightning. Snoke was a Palpatine avatar and puppet, so again his use of lightning is tied to Palpatine.
     
  12. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 27, 2013
    If its related to Palpatine's bloodlines why Dooku has it?

    The point is, Snoke was created by Sidious and he was his underling for sure but I don't think Snoke and Sidious are the same person. We've seen the Snoke clones, just like Palpatine's clone son, Snoke was a different individual who works as Sidious's puppet, not Sidious's avatar. Those two are not the same, he can be Sidious's puppet and they can be two different people.

    Also you were saying Dooku is superior due to Force lightning, but Snoke who uses Force lightning isn't even worthy to be a Sith Lord, he was just a Force sensitive puppet. Snoke shouldn't be more related to Sidious than the actual Sith Lords such as Maul or Vader.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2022
  13. Darth Vahvistaa

    Darth Vahvistaa Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Feb 17, 2022
    What I meant is Force Lightning is mostly tied to Palpatine and his puppets and progeny, Dooku is the odd man out who can use Force Lightning.

    Maul and Vader were both Sith Warriors, the equivalent of Jedi Guardian which have limited Force Mastery compared to Sith Sorcerers and Jedi Consulars like Palpatine and Yoda who wield great power in the Force. While Maul and Vader do demonstrate Force prowess in TCW and Comics, they still focus on their Warrior/Guardian skill sets of dueling rather than great displays of Force power.
     
  14. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 27, 2013
    I don't think your Sith and Jedi standards are accurate and I don't think its as set in stone as you believe.

    For example, Maul surviving after being cut in two, Vader surviving after losing his limbs and after burning entirely is related to their mastery of the Force and their strong connection to the Force. Same Snoke, who can use Force lightning, couldn't survive after being cut in two while Maul did due to his mastery of the Force. Even Sidious said ''he is most impressed to see Maul survive his injury.'' Maul says he used Sidious's training.

    ''Darth Maul's first set of cybernetic legs were built on blind instinct and an all consuming rage. They were a terrifying creation, and horrifically effective, but were held together as much by Maul's mastery of the dark side of the Force as by his technical ability during their construction.''
    ----Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File Remake #024 (2014)

    Dave Filoni: ''The Force is what holding his (Maul's) body together. So Vader holds on to life at the edge of the lava flow, because he is such a condemned for Obi-Wan, such an anger for whose happens in his life. And that same type of focus, hatred what sustains Maul.''
    ----Source: Star Wars Celebration Clone Wars Season Five Premiere (2012)

    You should also check out Maul and Vader's Force abilities and their Telekinesis powers. They are definitely not behind of Dooku's Telekinesis. Especially Vader's powers are even stronger than Dooku's.
     
  15. Darth Vahvistaa

    Darth Vahvistaa Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Feb 17, 2022
    I shall endeavor once more to clarify. When I mean Mastery of the Force, I mean the arcane and powers that require training to master, not a connection alone or mastery in the sense of being a Master of the Force that all dark siders claim to be.

    Lord Maul’s ability to survive his wounds is impressive, an echo of Darth Scion would held his body together through rage and the dark side. However, to use Force Lightning, Force Drain, and the more arcane powers requires something more; and for that reason Force Lightning to me is a line in the sand of the Sith, if you can generate the current of lightning, you have learned powers from arcane side of the darkness.

    Lord Maul and Vader are impressive, but their station is enforcer and warrior, not mystic and sorcerer. They accomplish much in sphere of their power, but their are Sith that outshine them and know how to wield abilities unnatural.
     
  16. Irredeemable Fanboy

    Irredeemable Fanboy Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 27, 2020
    Because Sidious never saw Dooku as a succesor/apprentice, just an interim to get to Anakin, Maul might have been weaker than Dooku in the present, but had much more untapped potential than the Jedi Master, and even as premature as his defeat was, he is still close to Dooku as a fighter, despite being not nearly as developed as the Count.

    Simply put: because Maul had superior potential, thus a better endgame as apprentice.
     
  17. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 27, 2013
    Again this is baseless since you talk about the films only where you claimed only Dooku used Force lightning while Snoke and Rey also used it. If its about the bloodlines then it has nothing to do with darkside mastery, its just a variant dark side ability. If its not about the bloodlines how did Rey use it and why Snoke wasn't even a Sith lord, was just a puppet, and died after getting cut in two, while Maul survived the same injury by using his dark side mastery and greater connection to the dark side.

    Since you talk about Darth Sion, that's non-canon, its legends. As far as the legends sources go, they also said Maul can use Force lightning as well,

    ''Maul's Force abilities; Ok use of Force grip, Force choke and Force lightning.''
    ---- Source: Star Wars Clone Wars Magazine #13 (2012)

    And showed a greater dark side knowledge and dark side power than a Force lightning user.

    ''Mighella attempts to use an energized sword to stop Darth Maul, then surprises him with a burst of Force Lightning. A moment after Mighella realizes her opponent is a Sith Lord with far superior Dark Side knowledge, she is felled by a lethal slash of Maul's lightsaber.''
    ----Source: The Ultimate Visual Guide (2005)

    This is similar to Snoke or Rey, who used Force lightning. They are still inferior to the actual Sith lords despite using Force lightning.
     
  18. Darth Vahvistaa

    Darth Vahvistaa Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Feb 17, 2022
    Ah Lord Maul does use Lightning, interesting. Well then he ascended in power. Snoke was created by Palpatine, “I made Snoke,” as was noticiable by the Snokes in Palpatine’s vats.

    I view Snoke as a Golem, a being that Palpatine spoke through, and wielded power through via puppetry.
     
  19. whostheBossk

    whostheBossk Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 16, 2002
    Tyranus was brought in for his craving for power...like every Sith Lord. He wanted the Republic to start over and Palpatine seduced him with insight on his master plan. It is interesting that Sidious says "Lord Tyranus" instead of Darth so it has always been of speculation that Dooku was a dark Jedi maybe more so than a Sith. However TCW show Dooku knowing who his master was and seemed he was in on it from probably before TPM.
    Maul was always the apprentice, trained since 20 years before TPM. I'm sure like someone stated that Tyranus knew of Maul but Maul didn't know of Tyranus, kept secret by Sidious. Then you throw the Lucas Sifo was a Sith apprentice comment and it stirs some confusion. Clearly a lot was going on before TPM (we need a show/movie!!) As Lucas expanded on it. I'm one to think Dooku knew Maul was the first option and helped recruit Sifo Dyas to do the Sith dirty work without Sifo knowing it. Then after Mauls death, he slides in as apprentice and has Sifo killed showing Sidious he is taking over all duties after TPM.