Gaming In a grim dark far future there is only war - A thread for Warhammer 40k

Genestealers, not tyranids. I think the "equivalent of the Fallen" was genestealer cultists, seen as traitors.

page 16, 4e Codex Dark Angels:

The battle became known as the Tale of Two-Heads-Talking, and is told by his Scout Sergeant to every Dark Angel upon his elevation from Scout to Brethren. Through by far the most repeated tale, many others exist, such as the "Fall of the House of Pervigilium", the "Scouring of the Space Hulk Place of Fears", the "Vengeance of the Beleaguerest" and the "Whisper in the Gloom". These are told to the Brothers as they progress through the Chapter's ranks. Some tell of heroes returned from war to find their brothers corrupted or enslaved, while others are tales of self-sacrifice and the absolute refusal to accept surrender, even in the face of overwhelming odds. All are tales of bitter woe ending in the defeat of the foe at terrible cost to the heroes, and of an eternal stain on the honour of those who come after them. Such tales instil in every Dark Angel who is told of them a zealous drive to right ancient wrongs and to seek out the enemy no matter where he might hide. As a consequence, every Dark Angel aspires to join the Deathwing, to lead the assault against the enemies of the Lion and of the Emperor.


page 19: 6e Codex Dark Angels mentions it as well, under "Apocryphal Tales" and goes on to say:

All such Dark Angels legends are told at specific points in a brother's progress through the Chapter's ranks. Some tell of heroes returned from the war to find their brothers corrupted, others speak of self-sacrifice or the refusal to accept surrender. No few touch on those seeking redemption from dishonourable deeds. Such tales instil in every Dark Angel a zealous drive to right wrongs and to seek out enemies no matter where they might hide.

In 7e Codex Dark Angels, "Apocryphal Tales" is on page 50.

8e Codex Dark Angels, on page 50, just says of Deathwing members told about the Fallen:

"This epiphany brings full understanding of the Chapter's apocryphal stories, and sets out the truth behind the mission to hunt down and destroy the Fallen Angels, no matter how long it takes, or what the cost."

 

Genestealers have been tyrannids since 4th edition. They are officially the vanguard of the Nids.

Gav Thorpe apparently retconned those alot of thst in his Legacy of Caliban and knights of Caliban book as we follow a Marine who is promoted from 7th company to death wing and he has no knowledge of them before he surives and helps Capture Astelan as a member of the 7th forcing him to be inducted into the Death wing.

Gav has contributed to every DA codex except one Since 3rd edition

 

Yes - but because they hybridise with humans, it's more possible to have "human traitors" - to be the allegory for the Fallen.

The point is that the Tale of Two-Heads Talking is probably a allegorical legend rather than a historical fact, and that the Deathwing probably repainted their armour all-whitish shortly after the Battle of Caliban.

 

Ok I was not understanding what you where trying to imply there till now
I like this as an idea to square everything up, than.

 

Something worth thinking about - the post-Heresy Deathwing (prior to the introduction of Primaris) are all Terminators, but the pre-Heresy "Deathwing Companions" are all in power armour - and it's the "Inner Circle Knights Cenobium" that wear Terminator Armour.

So, what happened?

I would speculate that the Deathwing Companions, during the Battle of Caliban, were awesome enough that the post-Heresy Dark Angels renamed and repainted their "Knights Cenobium" in honour of the Deathwing (who'd taken enough hits in their long careers that their armour was mostly white).

 

Or maybe the Deathwing become the terminator wearing ones after it was decided that they should be 1th Company and them following the codex (mostly/apparently) make it so that they became the terminator wearing ones since the 1th Company in the codex is the one who has the honour of wearing that armour.

And maybe the story in Deathwing is the reason why they now have white armour but that happening it is also used as an allegorical story to prepare younger marines for the truth

 

What makes the 40K, pre-Primaris, Deathwing "special" (apparently) is that of all 1st Companies, they're the only one that never deploys in power armour and always deploys in Terminator armour.

Since the 30K Deathwing Companions wear power armour - something changed. The question is how, exactly, the change took place. What happened to the Knights Cenobium?

 

The companions are a small elite unit in the Death wing as a entirety. They serve as honor guard and body guard for the Lion and other senior officers.

The knights cenobium are tied to the secret order and not the wings. Members of the cenobium came from all 6 wings

During the heresy the Dreadwing had more terminators than the Death wing.

Pre 2nd founding the members of the different wings where spread out amongst all of the different chapters of the legion. When the 2nd founding happened the Death wing and Raven wing where Consolidated into the 1st and 2nd companies. The other wings disappeared.

what is likely going explanation is the Death wing absorbed a chunk the surviving Dread wing members with the rest possible spread out into.the Deatwing equivalents of the 2nd founding successors and likely the Star Phantoms unknown founding chapter of unknown gene seed, rumored to be a Dark Angels successor because of their chapter symbol is the Dread wings icon and they specialize in the same type of weapons and operations the Dreadwing did. Both the DA and the Star Phantoms deny any connection though but that might be by design.

Sources- Horus heresy Book Nine Crusade(DA heresy game rulebook) and Lion El Jonson lord of the first novel.

 

Nowadays, at least. Ever since 3e, the standard was that "Veterans" aren't members of the Deathwing, but unusually skilled members of the Battle Company.

3e "The Chapter's 1st Company is known as the Deathwing and is made up exclusively of Space Marine Terminators".

4e
"Members of the Deathwing always fight in Terminator armour and are never fielded in power armour as is the case with most other Chapters."
"In battle every member of the company fights in bone-white Terminator armour"


And so on for every edition after that. Possibly even 2e's Angels of Death as well.

 

Yeah, DA has a separate veterans box for 40k that is also sold as The Fallen.

Senior officers of the DA who can and will deploy alongside the Death wing do not wear terminator armor most of the time.

Besides hunting the fallen, the Deathwing serves as Azrael's honor guard/bodyguard as one of there other duties. Azrael wears artificer armor based of elements of Mark 6 and Mark 8 armor with a piece or two of the Lion's own artificer armor that has been resized to fit a normal marine.. The interrogator Chaplains and librarians who deploy with the death wing have been depicted wearing with terminator armor or regular armor patterns depending on sources. The deathwing video game has them wearing terminator suits for instance but the majority of the novels that have characters like Sapphon, Asmodai, or Ezekiel have the character in there normal armors.

 

I'm focusing more on the "1st company squads" than the "officers" - all Librarians are Deathwing, many Librarians wear power armour - but that doesn't change how the 1st company squads themselves deploy.

 

Primaris Blade guard vets are also deathwing per 9th edition. They wear mark 10 Armor. Regular squad members have been terminators since 2ed.

The deathwing is the reason why Dark Angels cannot use Sternguard or Vanguard veterans units like other first founding chapters like the Ultrasmurfs.

 

Yup. "Deathwing deploy exclusively in Terminator armour" is pre-Ultima Founding only.

Though there's something of a question as to how Veteran Intercessor Squads fit into the Dark Angels. As written in the 9e Codex Marines, like Bladeguard, they're 1st Company. Unlike Bladeguard, they don't get the Deathwing keyword.

So, do the Dark Angels and their successors now have 1st Companies that are a mix of Deathwing and non-Deathwing? Or are they an exception to "Veteran Intercessors are part of the 1st Company"?

 

Going back to the origins of the wings and orders of the DA.

There is a great line in the Unremebered Empire where Gulliman looks at all the symbols marking on Holguin's armor, the Deathbringer(voted Lt of the Death wing, the heresy equivalent of Belial) and wonders what the hell all of it means.

DA heresy armor is busy as heck with symbols that are even not understood by other members of the other Secret orders. Only the symbols for the 6 wings of the hexagrammaton where common knowledge both inside and outside of the legion.

I own several of Forge worlds transfer sheets for the DA and they have a ton of different stuff compared to all of the other legions

@Iron_lord

We will have to wait for the DA supplement.

What I think might happen is they will be rolLed into the Dark Angels Company Veterans rules via a keyword change and removed from being 1st company.

 

Seems plausible.

 

Lol, was priming my Death wing companions during our back and forth and ran out of Chaos black primer with two torso and Accomoaning heads left. Will prime them grey and those two will be painted with more bone than the other 3.

 

Back when Bladeguard Veterans were announced, I was the one propounding on Bolter and Chainsword that "for the DA and their successors, They will be Deathwing 1st Company" in the DA section of the forum and most of the people in there said "No, they will be Company Veteran equivalents, in Battle Companies" until GW confirmed it.

I feel that the "All DA First Company wear Terminator armour" idea was a bit overly restrictive (and that it would have made sense for them to do things like use jump-packs, in situations where jump-packs are vastly tactically better than terminator armour)- but, at least for the "Firstborn" (non-Primaris) we're stuck with it.

DA did not get access to Sternguard or Vanguard Veterans in 9e.

 

Primaris cannot wear terminator armor yet , they do not fit in it even Ascended First born who Crosse the Rubicon. Calgar apparently does not wear of the armor of antiloucus anymore but a set of mark x artificer armor. So until they introduce the Primaris version of Terminators or Just make the Gravis variant troops Death wing they will have to let. Non terminator primaries in.

Another thing I Can see happening is the DA reviving some of the other wings especially the Dread wing as ways into integrate more and more Primaris into the inner circle. Hellblasters are very similar in weapons and tactics to Horus Heresy Dread wing interemptors.

 

Got my sis n law instructions to order me Path of Dark Eldar and The Victory omni’s.

 

Finished Betrayer today first time I really cared about Traitor legion members. @Iron_lord can vouch for the fact that I was posting World Eaters memes over at the JCC Meme thread. I always felt bad for ANgron because of the nails but Kharn is a new member of my Favorites(behind Corswain,The Lion, Loken, and Dorn). I like Argel Tal of the Word Bearers too. Literally Sarrin steals the book at points. Probably the best written female character in War hammer 30k or 40k"Fire the Ursus Claws." Normal human woman I her 20's that has the Legion of Berserkers and their Primarch worried about upsetting her.

Spoiler: Spoilers for.Betrayer

Kharn beats the living he'll out of Erebus at the end but Erebus gets away. "f" Erebus.

 

Betrayer is amongst the best HH stories in my opinion. ADB is one of the best BL authors. Turned the World Easters from utterly unintresting to my second favourite Legion after the Thousand Sons.

Spoiler: Spoilers regarding the above

Erebus has/had plot armor from day one as even before the first HH novel was published he was established as still a member of Logars dark council in the 41st millenium, same for Kor Phearon. Kharn beating the hell out of him was the utmost the writers could do to make him suffer.

So I know this thread is manly about 40k but could Warhammer Fantasy/AoS also be discussed here?
Was thinking about some ideas for Imperial Knightly orders in Fantasy amongst other things recenently.

 

I don't mind
I am sure some of the others play Fantasy/AOS or at least are into the lore.i have not really gotten into it outside of some of the most basic stuff.

 

I see no problem with it so go for it.

 

Do we know of any real "good guy" Chapters (like the Ultramarines or Salamanders) among the later founding Chapters?