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Lit Is Canon changing the rules of using the Force?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Galactic Bibliophile, Nov 15, 2023.

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  1. Galactic Bibliophile

    Galactic Bibliophile Jedi Knight star 1

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    Nov 24, 2021
    So 1999’s Phantom Menace established you needed to have a certain amount of midi-chlorians in order to connect to the Force. Basically it was like you need a high IQ to be a physicist.

    Now, we have Sabine who clearly can use the Force as she called a lightsaber to her hand telekinetically. There is no denying it. She can use the Force. However, is using the Force now what Lucas envisioned in the 80’s when he compared it to yoga. Anyone can learn to use it if they are determined enough. The average student can become a physicist if he studies hard enough? Or is Sabine just incredibly weak in the Force like Zayne Carrick or Scout was in Legends?
     
  2. Watcherwithin

    Watcherwithin Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 9, 2017
    Since we don’t know sabines midi-chlorian count. I’ll assume she’s weakly force-sensitive

    it’s always been a grey area where exactly on the scale one can use force powers and to what extant.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2023
  3. Coherent Axe

    Coherent Axe Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 20, 2016
    That was never actually stated, though. TPM tells us Anakin's count is abnormally high, but midi-chlorians exist in everyone and "when you learn to quiet your mind, you'll hear them speaking to you". It's not the exclusive "you must be this tall to ride" club it's sometimes made out to be.
     
  4. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

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    Jul 19, 1999
    We have rules now?
     
  5. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Chosen One star 7

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    Apr 25, 2004
    Eh, if that's the case, why bother testing for midichlorians at all? Sure you need training, but it seems like midichlorians determine the person's potential to begin with.
     
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  6. Coherent Axe

    Coherent Axe Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 20, 2016
    Sure, a higher count seems to suggest greater affinity (maybe there's more of them for the individual to "hear"), but nothing said there's a bar set for entry. That seems like a fan misconception that sprang from the "Lucas ruined the Force!" crowd.
     
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  7. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Chosen One star 5

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    Dec 28, 2006
    I think they are trying to strike a balance between Lucas's earlier statements that the ability to sense and use the Force is a skill akin to yoga, that anyone can do it but very few devote the time, and the midi-chlorian count. I recall a few years back Pablo saying something about even the midi-chlorian measuring was part of the institutional excess of the PT Jedi.
     
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  8. Fettster

    Fettster Jedi Grand Master star 3

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    May 7, 2003
    During the making of the OT:

    Kasdan: The Force was available to anyone who could hook into it?
    Lucas: Yes, everybody can do it.
    Kasdan: Not just the Jedi?
    Lucas: It’s just the Jedi who take the time to do it.
    Marquand: They use it as a technique.
    Lucas: Like yoga. If you want to take the time to do it, you can do it; but the ones that really want to do it are the ones who are into that kind of thing. Also like karate.​
     
  9. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Chosen One star 5

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    Dec 28, 2006
    Legends also had a Force group called the Matukai(they have also appeared in The High Republic, and thus are canon). They used martial arts and physical discipline to increase Force awareness. They were able to boost a marginal sensitivity to something greater.
     
  10. Dream-Thinker

    Dream-Thinker Jedi Master star 4

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    May 20, 2020
    This. So much this.
     
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  11. The Positive Fan

    The Positive Fan Force Ghost star 4

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    Jan 19, 2015
    So we know the midi-chlorians "speak" to those who can hear them, but what are they saying? The previous line of the movie answers that - "They continually speak to us, telling us the will of the Force." Here's the result I get when I put those two lines together: midi-chlorians are less about "power level" or ability to use the Force, and more about one's potential to "hear" the Force communicating its will to them. Or to put it another way, a person with a high midi-chlorian count isn't just able to use the Force, they're more able to be used by the Force for its own ends - which is possibly why Qui-Gon immediately connected Anakin's midi-chlorian count with the Chosen One prophecy.
     
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  12. Nom von Anor

    Nom von Anor Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Oct 7, 2012
    It's Legends now, but Wolverton seemed to think anyone could learn to use the Force, when Luke talks about teaching Isolder in The Courtship Of Princess Leia. But that's the only example I can think of from that era.
     
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  13. Biel Ductavis

    Biel Ductavis Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 17, 2015
    If everyone is force sensitive to an extent, can everyone (trained or not) fall to the dark side?

    Gesendet von meinem Nokia G22 mit Tapatalk
     
  14. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Chosen One star 5

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    Dec 28, 2006
    Well, in the KOTOR games non-Force-users can have a dark side or light side alignment. Canderous Ordo/Mandalore is consistently dark aligned despite working with light aligned players.

    I dont know how we could read the worst Imperials but dark side aligned.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2023
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  15. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Chosen One star 7

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    Apr 25, 2004
    But what we ended up getting on-screen seems to heavily imply that it's a select few that can wield the Force. You know, like Yoda saying "no, there is another" and Luke telling Leia about their shared parentage and how they can use the Force.
     
  16. MercenaryAce

    MercenaryAce Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 10, 2005
    Even without a hard cut off, I could see there being a serious case of diminishing returns - an average person might have to spend most of their lives to master force basics that most jedi do as younglings.

    This goes double for Yoda and Obi-Wan: They didn't have years to train up an average jedi like the countless others Vader has slaughtered. They needed people strong enough to take on Vader and Palpatine with rather minimal training.

    Sabine might have been below the jedi's usual cutoff, but she would hardly be the only character the jedi deemed too weak to train who became a force user.
    Notably, we have the Mother who was thought too weak but was actually scarily good at mass mind influence with the force, despite being self taught.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2023
  17. Coherent Axe

    Coherent Axe Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 20, 2016
    Which is mostly just a side-effect of a wonky retcon, and doesn't really hold up when you look at...basically any other Force-user who's not a Skywalker or Palpatine. Not to mention Luke and Leia's role in things is specifically to do with their connection to Vader, not just the fact that they have the Force. Like, Obi-Wan and Yoda have the Force, so that's clearly not the only prerequisite for confronting Vader and Palpatine.
     
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  18. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

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    Oct 13, 2003
    I think midichlorians usually show how EASY it is to be trained, and the Jedi were good sticking to that in the PT since they wanted to raise from birth.

    But that anyone can be trained, it can just be very hard, but it's possible. And now more likely to happen with people being trained as Jedi as young adults.
     
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  19. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 10

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    Oct 4, 1998
    Don't forget OWK's line in TPM, something to the effect of "Not even Master Yoda has a midichlorian count that high!" That makes it pretty clear that a high count is directly related to being a powerful Force user.
     
  20. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

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    Oct 13, 2003
    That could just be because Yoda had a higher count, it was easier for him to be trained, and it was easier for hm to keep training himself to get stronger and more attuned.

    Midichlorians being like the maximum speed of your vehicle. If you drive from New York to DC on a vehicle that can go up to 120mph versus a vehicle that can only go up to 20mph, then the 120 will get to DC first and might make it all the way to Florida before the 20mph makes it to DC. But it will still get there, just needing more time, it's just a rockier and slower road.
     
  21. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Chosen One star 5

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    Dec 28, 2006
    In The Rise of Kylo Ren, when one of his students is frustrated at having difficulty using the Force while everything seems easy for Ben, Luke says that for some people to door to the Force is wide open and for others it's not as open... But through training and determination it can be widened.

    I don't think midi counts are supposed to indicate an upper limit of strength in the Force, but just how naturally open to it one is. That doesn't mean someone of a much lower count can't match or surpass them, just that they need to be more dedicated to their training.

    Obi-Wan, being of a lower count than Anakin, probably shouldn't have been able to win 2 duels with Vader but he did. Reaoundingly. Vader's success rate against Obi-Wan is entirely predicated on beating him with his connection to the Force being disrupted and him sacrificing himself to buy time for his charges. Midi-chlorian counts didn't effect the outcome there.

    We don't know if Sabine's midi count is far below the PT Jedi threshold, just below or right at. As far as we know, that test never happened with her. What we do know is that Absoka saw something in her that made her feel like she could be trained, but Sabine had a block. Her door was closed, right up until she kicked it wide open.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2023
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  22. Dream-Thinker

    Dream-Thinker Jedi Master star 4

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    May 20, 2020
    I think the exact mechanics of how the Force works and how it manifests in people is purposely kept vague, and for good reason.
     
  23. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Chosen One star 5

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    Dec 28, 2006
    The Force isn't a hard magic system by any means.
     
  24. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

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    Jul 8, 1999
    I mean...

    [​IMG]
     
  25. MercenaryAce

    MercenaryAce Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 10, 2005
    And yet Anakin never reached, much less surpassed, the force mastery of either Yoda or Palpatine despite having more midis than them.

    (And as an aside, him having a super high midichlorian count is one of the things that marks him as the chosen one to defeat the Sith...but then like he doesn't actually beat Palpatine with a display of force mastery or power. Just picks him with his robo arms and yeets him down a pit.)
     
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