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Lit Is it would be profitable to continue post ROTJ legends for Lucasfilm?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Konrad Pietrzak, Mar 14, 2023.

  1. Konrad Pietrzak

    Konrad Pietrzak Jedi Knight star 1

    Jun 6, 2020
    I apologize in advance for the chaotic text, but the discussion itself was quite chaotic and English is not my native language.

    I'm also a fan of both canon and legend works and I would be happy if we would gain both of them relasing, so its not discusion about which one is better.

    So, getting to the merits:

    Recently I got into an argue with someone about continuing legends.
    My argument was that books have always been a niche and that there are enough legends fans out there to want to see Sword of Jedi, for example, and that we recently had Ronin and Visions that weren't canon.
    His argument was that this niche is too small to made it profitable, and that for most people the canon is important, and a sequel to legends, even with a yellow banner, would confuse most casuals. That there is a greater chance that the casual new reader will be more interested in the canon. And as an example, he gives Marvel comics, which are read by a handful of movie viewers, but there were often redesigns of characters, their stories and characters to make them as close as possible to their film counterparts, just so that casula would buy them from time to time, something he was not a fan because it would hurt the stories (vide that unfortunate Civil War 2 that was made only that the movie was coming out). Also that sequel trilogy when it was getting more divided with each film, and the trilogy itself eventually not only fell apart, but also had an impact on the image of the entire universe, because after all, films are a big wave, and if it fails, it's harder for others to move on, Andor example was a great show, but it was a lot quieter than it would have been if the movies had been more successful.

    I'm also a fan of both canon and legend works and I would be happy if we would gain both of them relasing.

    What you think about it?
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  2. iFrankenstein

    iFrankenstein Jedi Knight star 1

    Apr 24, 2020
    If Star Wars is already niche and Star Wars books are super niche, then people who care about Star Wars canon are like a niche of a niche of a niche. If LFL believed that group was particularly profitable they’d put more effort into actually maintaining the canon.

    Most casuals don’t care about canon either way, but if the distinction between Legends and canon was particularly concerning to Star Wars marketing, they wouldn’t keep the old Legends books in print in the first place, and especially wouldn’t have designed the Essential Legends Collection to not even have the Legends banner on its covers.
    Riv_Shiel likes this.
  3. Jeff_Ferguson

    Jeff_Ferguson Force Ghost star 5

    May 15, 2006
    Both Del Rey (who publish Star Wars books) and Marvel Comics are still releasing old Legends stories with the big yellow banner --- Marvel with their Epic Collections and Del Rey with the Essential Legends collection. The novels even have new cover art and new marketing. The powers-that-be have reasons why they don't want to release any more Legends material, but it doesn't seem like one of those reasons is worrying over casual fans being confused.

    Marvel even have released a new story set in Legends --- although it's its own thing that's set in Legends circa 1986, not circa 2014. And it was done as a celebration of Marvel's 80th anniversary, not as the start of something bigger.

    But I don't really see how the release of a new Legends book with a Legends banner would be any more confusing to fans than a re-release of Outbound Flight or Survivor's Quest with a Legends banner.
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  4. The Only Stories i see happening in a Possible Legends Resurrection are Sword of the Jedi Novels, Legacy Volume 3, maybe Darth Krayt Novel or Darth Zannah and Darth Cognus Novel maybe more Dawn of the Jedi as for Video Games, maybe only TFU 3 maybe a Sequel to TFU 2 in Comic or Novel form if there is a Possible Legends Resurrection i think that they will focus more on the Post ROTJ Legends Timeline i think that Resurrecting Legends as an Alternative Universe from Disney/New Canon Universe would be a Good decision since the Fans would win and Disney would receive more Money the problem is that i am afraid that if Legends Resurrects they will try to do Strange things in Legends or make Retcons because is a Universe that is not Canon to the Disney Universe is Legends coming back a Good idea or not? who knows
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 15, 2023
  5. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Jul 19, 1999
    The Q isn't if it would make a profit but how much profit. I suspect the answer is: Not enough.
  6. EmperorHorus

    EmperorHorus Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 3, 2016
    tbf any profit at all would be an improvement on most of Disney's recent endeavours
  7. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Force Ghost star 5

    Nov 24, 2013
    How much would be enough then though?

    I think the problem with discontinuing the EU is not that it is not profitable. Running it paralell to Disney canon would be equally profitable with some fans buying both, others sticking to either one merely. Fans being confused by two continuities is just an excuse, not a reason.

    The true problem for Disney is this: What if continuing the EU turns out to be more profitable than what they do with canon? That is their fear. Seems illogical at first but it makes sense sadly: If the EU is more profitable in the long run, especially with old authors coming back and it being free for writers, much more so than Disney which has the writers keep a lot of topics and spaces untouched for potential movies and tv shows, then books and comics without such restraint would potentially have it easier to be literary masterpieces or have more depth, detail and worldbuilding. Thus, in comparison they would be preferred by fans, at least content wise, even if not continuity wise, and become a new standard. This standard though limits the rather ignorant movie and tv making celebrity that wants creative freedom.
    Thus the dilemma for Disney is, allowing the continuation of the Legends EU would set a precedent that Disneys canon can not follow because money is with tv, movies and toys. And for those they need to keep the creative freedom for stubborn folks they want to hire. Legends, essentially would put the main focus and driving force back to Lit and Comics and that means loosing the big money of movies and tv. Or loosing DIsney canon fans to Legends if quality is better "over there" due to less restraints for authors.

    Second, and also important, they of course could countermand such developments by also doing tv and movies in the Legends continuity, or employing the same restraints they have with new canon for Legends. That would though reduce Legends quality fans want back like it had been, though at the potential for Legends tv and movies. But if casual folks are confused already by clearly separated and easily identifyeable continuities, they would need to separate DU and EU by media to have a clear distinction. Like have EU only in animation, or tv or animated movies, and DU all over the place. Or a hard separation like DU will not touch one medium that exclusively is for Legends then. Legends fans would be happy to have something at least, but still not find the depth they knew of the old times.

    This is why sadly returning the EU as it was is hardly possible outside of anniversary one shots maybe or a highly reduced form of publishing limited in scope as Legends and Canon share the same worldbuilding, even if not the same stories. If Legends creates a world, it exists most likely on a canon map, too. So letting it create unchecked or as wild as before is a no go sadly.

    Now to bring Legends back in an ongoing format, we need to be reasonable and realistic and find a way to make it sell without hitting on Disneys fears. Everyone wants another story or character continued I am sure, but Legends can not return all over the timeline as it once was. If it returns on a limited scope and medium, it might pick one or two eras at most and not release as frequently as canon stuff does. They might continue an era that is less troublesome for canon regarding paralells or overlap. Thus not movie eras, but the distant past maybe like KOTOR/TOR era which is ongoing in MMO form and online short stories still.
    A second era could be the New Sith Wars or Legacy Comic era. But them doing Solokids (my preferred era) would be problematic in their eyes I guess. Thus the most fleshed out and hoped for era to find continuation would be the most unlikely.

    There are other creative ways to bring Legends back kinda, within a Disney canon format that allows for creative freedom even. Have Legends be brought back as inuniverse fiction in Canon. Jedi telling a tale, cue flashback to the Sunrider era or somesuch. Like much lately, if it is inuniverse or pov based, it is potentially wrong and overwriteeable, but can coexist regardless with everything else. New LEGENDS stories with Legends characters in that format may give fans what they want and yet keep it canon from a certain point of view. Some guidebooks and authors like Jason Fry etc. tried to use many Legends references in that way inside canon, like for Han Solos Legends past, or else. Even Pablo Hidalgo does it in his Visual Guides.
    One just needs to up such references from throwaway lines to full flashbacks in form of comics, novels, short stories, even guides with a framing device story rooted in canon.

    But Disney does not want to devalue or seemingly so Legends in the eyes of Fans who prefer it. Would they do that for a story with Jaina, Jacen, etc. the Solokids nonexistant in canon but in inuniverse fiction, it'd be odd.

    So to get that era continued somehow, we need more than the above tricks.

    My vote still goes to timetravel and World between Worlds retcons and loops to allow for as many continuities as one wants to coexist, including OneCanons, crossovers, etc.. But that is too out there for many.

    Disney could continue Legends as digital only, saving printing costs (with fans probably selfprinting them anyway then).That way it may be even more profitable for them. And differentiate from all officially printed canon works.

    But before shying away from fears of paralells between two continuities, especially when they pseudo adapt some Legends and are heavily inspired by it obviously, canon needs to find its own footing and not retread Legends best of for likes and cameos. Either it is its own continuity, or it is the MCU loosely adapting and merging stuff around. But the MCU has a clear distinction between timelines and classic comicverse vs. movieverse. SW has not (yet).
    Xammer likes this.
  8. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Jul 19, 1999
    How much would be enough?

    "More than you can imagine."

    If you're going to give me the opportunity....
  9. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Force Ghost star 5

    Nov 24, 2013
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  10. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Jul 19, 1999
    Congrats - You are an Exec.
    ColeFardreamer and Sinrebirth like this.
  11. I dont think Disney should be concerned most of the Legends Content is Reading Material in the New Canon is more Visual with Shows and Movies i dont think there would be any problem the Fans who Read Star Wars Novels especially pre 2014 ones are a niche compared to most People who only watch New Canon Disney Shows and Movies
    Xammer likes this.
  12. Palp_Faction

    Palp_Faction Force Ghost star 4

    Feb 3, 2002
    The fact that Disney has not continued the Legends era tells you all you need to know about how profitable it would be. If there was money to be made, they'd have done it. It's interesting that they are reprinting the books with new cover art, but maybe they know that die-hard fans will want to collect different versions of the books. Personally alternate timeliness existing is a common sci-fi trope and if Disney was clever about it, they could find an inventive way to acknowledge how the Legends timeline could exist canonically parallel to their own timeline.
  13. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Jul 19, 1999
    Not necessarily.

    They could make a tidy profit from 4K UHD / BR sets for Clone Wars, Bad Batch, Fett, Andor, Kenobi, Mando, Rebels, Resistance but refuse to.

    They would absolutely rake it in from a 4K UHD / BR OT original version.

    There's a good few areas where Disney is leaving cash on the table.
  14. The Old EU Legends Novels are still selling and now there is the Essential Legends collection with New Amazing Covers for the Old Novels if there is any New Novel with the Legends Logo a New Story of that Continuity im sure it would sell very well too Hasbro has released some Figures of Legends Characters such as Revan, Darth Nihilus or Jaina Solo and these are selling very well Marvel has Compiled Comics from the EU with the Legends Logo and the Old Video Games Pre 2014 are still being sold if the KOTOR Remake comes out it is most likely that it will be Legends and it will be a Remake of the Original Game with the same Story
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 15, 2023
  15. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Chosen One star 5

    Dec 28, 2006
    They have reasons they walked away from Legends internal to LFL. They wanted a clean slate for movies and TV, and they wanted new people to come in without the cumbersome continuity and retcons. Have they succeeded in avoiding similar problems in new canon? Not entirely. There's far less a barrier to entry though.

    While Disney has seemingly endless amounts of money, there's only so much budget and schedule to go around and it is a hell of a lot easier to reprint books, even with a new format and cover art commission, than it is to hire authors and editors to work on a parallel line of publishing that has nothing to do with the Canon like but a familiar logo.

    Could it turn a profit? Sure, but why continue something that is only ever going to be the standard by which people compare new Canon material and some vocally in the negative? I'm not sure it makes sense from that standpoint. At this point, it would only serve to make a bunch of toxic a-holes feel relevant, like they had some kind of power.

    Legends was so far off the rails from DNT/LOTF/FOTJ/Crucible that it was almost like a mercy kill(heh) when it was scrapped.
  16. I would be interested in knowing the events that happened before Legacy Comics Legacy of the Force is like the Disney Sequel Trilogy both are Controversial to some Fans and both are not Universally Loved Post ROTJ Legends some may not like it but its Canon just like Disney Sequels is Canon with the New Canon/Disney Universe
  17. vong333

    vong333 Force Ghost star 5

    Oct 18, 2003
    Disney has no real plan for star wars. They should have finished the Sword of the Jedi books and the Force Unleashed 3 and closed legends off and move on to this new stuff. But even if they did that it wouldn't be enough. You have the Old republic MMO which has produced some damn good lore and we have next to nothing. No book detailing the different arcs and stories, nothing. The funny thing is, is that its tied to the tales of the jedi side of legends. It wont even work with the new disney canon and it could if they wanted to make it work but they left it out and now it is its own thing.

    Star wars is so discombobulated that the answer to the question is why? You introduce a force power to then dum it down that it can't happen to often and then ignore it completely, or then in some books write that no you can't fly, but in another ...its rumored that they can fly, to the animated series showing you the inquisitors flying with the helicopter lightsaber to the movie showing leia force floating/flying pushing through space. It ridiculous and with the advent of today's special effects you know what? Limited mentality and restrictive nostalgic story telling is a thing of the past.
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2023
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  18. EmperorHorus

    EmperorHorus Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 3, 2016
    haha that's a no from me

    At the risk of being repetitive, Disney's recent decision-making regarding SW and the resulting financial success (or lack thereof) wouldn't lend itself to trusting them to know what is profitable and what isn't

    Even now they still seem to be learning the wrong lessons from things that haven't worked, judging by recent interviews

    Edit: ftr I'm not saying that continuing Legends would definitely be profitable, but "Disney would know if it would be profitable or not" is not an assumption based on reality
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2023
  19. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Aug 8, 2016
    There is no reason for them to do this.

    At all. These products would have to actually be...produced. You'd need to get Christie Golden and Drew Karpshyn, and the authors of Legacy Volume 2 onboard. When their contracts have expired, and set up a time table for this to be written, edited, and published. What exactly would the benefit be? Giving Legends' fans the few items on a wish list they didn't get?

    Its not profitable. I mean maybe, if Disney just wanted to blow tens of millions of dollars in contract fees, marketing, and distribution for a niche audience within a niche audience. But I won't hold my breath.
    Palp_Faction likes this.
  20. Golbolco

    Golbolco Jedi Master star 3

    Jan 20, 2016
    This outlines one of my big problems I have.

    Personally, I believe that a Legends continuation would be profitable and that at this point there is nothing for LFL to lose by publishing stories set in Legends continuity. After all, they've published and continue to publish non-canon works, and as far as anyone knows they didn't eat it on Visions or Ronin or Star Wars 108.

    However, what would be worth telling in the Legends continuity? It has been over ten years, Sword of the Jedi is probably not a winning pitch for the next new Legends novel. KOTOR III maybe, since video games are more perennial. Do people want the old authors and creators to come back? If so, who? When I find myself asking this question, the answer I hear in the back of my mind is "I just want the Canon stories they're doing right now, set in Legends." I know that's not everyone's view, but when you get down to it, don't people want more of Thrawn and Dark Times-era content? We're getting those, just 10% different.

    Personally, I would rather that a One Canon-type of setup is reestablished so that we get the best of both worlds. Could they do that at a corporate level? I think so.
    ColeFardreamer likes this.
  21. Watcherwithin

    Watcherwithin Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 9, 2017
    Almost all of the expanded universe lore outside of the characters form the post-RotJ is still canon.
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2023
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  22. IG_2000

    IG_2000 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Aug 5, 2008
    I don’t see any reason why they shouldn’t. To be honest I don’t think anybody actually reads Star Wars books and having non canon ones wouldn’t impede on anything they’re doing on screen.
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  23. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Aug 8, 2016
    The only viable stuff is maybe something set in the New Sith Wars, a continuation of the Bane trilogy(a Zannah and Cognus trilogy), or Dawn of the Jedi stuff.

    More stuff that continues the Denningverse is not a winning pitch "hey everyone remember SOTJ, well here's Jaina and Jag doing stuff, you and I both know where they end up"-there's nothing to tell.

    The only post Crucible stuff that is remotely interesting is maybe a YJK for Allana, deciding who Ben marries, and perhaps a continuation of Jaden Korr's story. All of which has to deal with Legacy as canon.

    The New Jedi Order and Vong war? Niche even with EU fan circles, Legacy Volume 2-well the Sith weren't destroyed(I don't even accept that) but Ania finds out something.

    A Darth Plagueis sequel that follows Tyrannus and Palpatine in between TPM and AOTC could be done. Maybe another Vader book in the dark times.

    There are at most-four or five topics for a legends novel with an immediate audience. Anything else is niche background content or is not going to be very interesting because everyone knows where the characters end up anyway even if not how.
    Golbolco likes this.
  24. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Force Ghost star 5

    Nov 24, 2013
    New Legends content worth a Legends "restart" before getting the more obscure stuff we actually want? Well... here is a winning pitch:

    DARK EMPIRE expanded NOVELISATION (using the already expanded Audio Drama and adding more)... and multimedia event. If fananimation of it can already be great, official one must be epic.

    EU SHORT STORY COLLECTION... with all over the timeline bits for Jaden Korr, older Allana, Legacy comics and Ania meeting Cade, NJO Invasions Finn Galfridian, Revan, Karen Traviss Mandos + tagalongs like Talisibeth "Scout" Enwandung Esterhazy, a Rogue and a Wraith Squadron short story, a Kerra Holt story, a YJK story, a JJK story, a NJO story, a Galaxy of Fear story with Hoole and Arrandas, a Force Wars/Tython DotJ era short, a Jedi Prince Ken story, a Kyle Katarn story, a Vima Sunrider story, TOR MMO short, etc. It'd be perfect to test waters and interest given reception and continue each storyline somewhat before fully finishing/continuing them later on perhaps.

    Legends can be expanded in ways different than canon if they want clear separation... what if you expand Legends ONLY in guidebook format? Inuniverse guides in the Legends timeline, with storyhooks, snippets, shorts, lore, etc. instead of novels and comics?

    LEGENDS EU GUIDE book Atlas/Warfare style up to date with all latest Legends and hooks for more.

    LEGENDS RPG Core & Sourcebooks

    Or continue Legends ONLY as an RPG with Core/Sourcebooks and Adventures. Stories kinda open and not definite but a lot of new lore and art and exploration of what we love with maybe a hint of a "canon path" like for videogames. Maybe add some sologaming choose your own books with dice needed to decide where it continues. That'd be different enough from canon to keep Legends identifieable without confusion.
    iFrankenstein likes this.
  25. Havoc123

    Havoc123 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Jun 26, 2013
    Most of the writers are gone, unless they hire them back, there would be no point to continue those stories. Legends works to be continued by well, fans but otherwise? Its a done-deal. There is a clear, conclusive ending with Legacy #2, which can be continued in our own interpretations. Return to Felpire vs GA? Soft Imperial domination? Are Sith all dead? Is Nihl still out there? All open for fan/headcanons. But there is a clear end. There honestly isn't THAT much story to tell in-between LOTF/FOTJ and Legacy. All there'd be really needed is a sourcebook of some sort that clears up some questions, maybe references unfinished material.

    Now don't get me wrong, I'm still a Legends fan, I really, really don't like the ST, nor do I see Disneyverse as MY post-Endor continuation. But I'm also a realist. Its way too late to bring back Legends as a continued line. At least, under LucasFilm's current ownership. Disney are banking on what they've settled on. Expect certain things from Legends to be referenced, some character names and story-beats reused perhaps, but they have shows, books and movies prepared for the next 5 years, and none of them include a return to Legends. Which is unfortunate, because even SW Picardized version of Luke kicking ass post-Cade would be better than what we've gotten so far, but its just the way it is. Both in terms of profitability and future-planning.