Is the Empire evil?

I'd say the destruction of Alderaan is pretty good proof.

 

Sith = Evil. Sith = Empire. Evil = Empire. It is as simple as algebra.

 

Sith -> Evil
Sith -> Empire
--------------
Empire -> Evil?

Logic > Algebra. Don't think it works that way, though. It's been a while

 

Logic too, but too many conditions may apply, lol. Transfer properties are much more straight forward.

But the fact remains the Sith were evil and the Sith were the Empire. The galaxy was rotting from the top down and all that was sucked into it's grasp was tinged with evil.

 

Just because the head of state is of the "wrong" religious affiliation, the entire governmental structure is "evil?"

All governments do "bad" things to maintain their hold on power, and those actions often lead to the loss of civilian life. The Republics (both Old and New) had more than their share of corrupt Senators owned by special interest groups and corporations, as well as Senators who used their political power to have rivals and threats to their personal power removed from existence.

But, just because they were allied with the Jedi by political alignment, the Republic is deemed "good?"

Balderdash.

 

*fixed

 

if they were the same, one couldn't be better than the other, could it?
there's some logic for ya

 

Well the issue is definitely a "point of view" matter. Those loyal to the Empire would certainly see it as good and the Rebels as evil. But from a moviegoers standpoint, I think it was made fairly clear that the Empire represented evil. That does not mean every individual was evil - as we saw, even Vader was not evil incarnate as he turned. But Sidious was evil incarnate and his evilness flowed right down and spread throughout the system he created, so many were tainted by it to some degree. On the Rebellion side, you didn't have a group of perfect angels either, but the "heart of the Rebellion" was in the right place and flowing from it would be goodness, peace, a quest for freedom for the galaxy, etc.

 

I absolutely agree with that, though I can see where others are coming from in saying that the Empire was not evil or the Jedi and the Republic were just as evil. The Jedi and the Sith were both seem as religious extremists for thousands of years and people even referred to the Sith as "Jedi", especially during the Jedi Civil War. That definitely didn't help the perception of the Jedi Order, especially when Revan and Malak came back and tried to wipe out the Republic. The Jedi also hunted down the Sith, made anti-Sith laws that could be considered laws against a religion, etc. There are a lot of examples, and while I don't agree that it makes the Jedi Order a necessarily evil or bad force (no pun intended), I do see where people like the OP are coming from in their view points.

 

The Jedi even said many of the senators were bad and worked on cases to prove that. The Rebellion was to restore the Republic WITHOUT that corruption, which is what Lucas has said happens in his vision. When Palpatine died, that was it, the centralized power of evil collapsed. The Sith were the root of all the corruption.

 

Look at it this way, the Empire made a false peace to keep people from rising up against them. Disarm your dissidents and those who want to be free and call it peace. On the ROTS commentary, Lucas even said it was a false peace to try and decieve the galaxy, much like how Satan does, another comparison for the two figures.

 

An entire government structure isn't neccessarally bad because the top men are evil. Plenty of democratic nations have bad men in prominent positions. This was also true of the Republic. However, if those top men are in complete control of a totalitarian state, and the will of the dictator is law, then yes; the entire regime becomes evil by default.

Take Nazi Germany for instance. I don't think anybody would argue that every single individal within the german bureucracy and military at the time was evil. But Hitler's power was so absolute, penetrating every aspect of society and determining the course of the entire nation with no room for dissent, that he and his rechleiters (sp?) polluted the entire country.

 

The thing is, the Empire ISN'T democratic, nor is it respectful of rights of its people with its anti-alien policies among other things.

 

Welcome to TF.N, Darky5K! Know that I agree with you, but I'm going to play devil's advocate for a moment.

The Jedi and the Republic did, in fact, do that too. I don't remember exactly when it was, but I'm pretty sure the Jedi and the Republic enacted anti-Sith laws sometime after the Jedi Civil War that deemed if you were a Sith you were essentially against the law. Think what you will about the Dark Side, but that's still persecution of religion. Palpatine even mentioned something like this in the ROTS novelization. When Mace Windu and the Jedi come to arrest him, they say he's under arrest for being a Sith Lord and Palpatine states that it's unconstitutional to do so considering the Republic had freedom of religion. I'm not really sure if this would contradict the anti-Sith laws or not.

The Jedi always censored things about the Force from their own people and from others out of fear of them turning to the Dark Side. The fact that it was hidden was, in my opinion, one of the reasons that the people who found it did turn to the Dark Side.

Yeah, it was a lie and it was started by the Sith, but keep in mind that the galaxy at large blamed the Jedi for wars too, namely the Jedi Civil War. Even though Revan and Malak were Sith, they still were once Jedi heroes so it greatly damaged the perception of the Jedi Order. It was also a fallen Jedi that started the new Sith Wars and it was also a fallen Jedi that was at the head of the Confederacy. They were all Sith, but that's not public perception.

 

That was my point. The Empire is a totalitarian dictatorship just like the Third Reich. The power of Hitler and Palpatine over their respective regimes was so strong that the entire regime they lead was as evil as they were. After all, one can argue that Hitler was the Third Reich, and that Palpatine was the Empire. Their grip over their empires was that absolute.

I am reminded of an exchange from the EU between the Emperor and Prince Xizor (sp?).

"For you, my lord; and for the Empire."
"The two are one and the same, Xizor."

 

Thanks for the welcome

Yes, but we know why the Sith were illegal. Everyone in it was out to kill, maim and destroy. We can just look at KOTOR and a lot of the Jedi-Sith War stuff that occurs before 1000 BBY. The Sith, however, made every other religion illegal, much like all theocracies do. We could compare the Sith to any dangerous cult, the Thule Society, even radical terrorism. Palpatine did repeal the anti-Sith law, which was touched on as being controversial given the history of Sith aggression towards everyone else. It'd be like letting Hitler run for office in the US (don't ask me how he got here or survived, he just does for the sake of comparison)

The only thing hidden by the Jedi were the powerful secrets of the Sith. The Empire, however, censored the Force in general, removing all literature and such on the topic. Other Force religions were made illegal, except those cults that allied with the Sith. Taking it another step further, it was illegal to be a Force-sensitive, punishable by death.

I do however, recall from KOTOR that there was substantial Jedi support, at least in the first game. By the second however, it was mixed. Then again, a lot of your crew in KOTOR 2 are outlaws anyway. The only planets I recall that had a substantial amount of anti-Jediism were Nar Shadaa and Dantooine had some.

In a way, it might be like the US soldiers; you may not agree with the conflict, but you support the people fighting to protect you. The soldiers, like the Jedi, aren't the politicians or the other evils that may start the problems.

 

Well it does not come down to every individual in the entire Empire - or in the entire Rebellion. It was Sidious' empire and Sidious was evil. His evilness would certainly play a huge role in the framing of his 'universe'. Tons of people felt the oppression of his rule, directly or indirectly. You know, like the Alderanians - and anyone who had a relative there (like Leia). Not every aspect of everyone's life was suddenly "evil" - but the ruler was and his rule was based on it.

 

Agreed, xx_Anakin_xx .

 

Oh Oh Oh, then look no further. For the answear to all your (pre-pt) proof of the evilness of the empire just consult the first 6 or so pages of this wonderful thread. And I mean all!

 

People mention Alderaan, what about Despayre where the Death Star was built by slaves? Slaves who were there because they were of alien background, political dissidents, religious differences, etc. Then they blew it up to kill those undesirables and to keep people silent.

Then we know how they got the Death Star plans, especially from worlds like Ralltiir.

 

Star wars is like a ww2 movie with the "good guys" the Americans cake walking the "bad guys" The Germans. Many movies are like this, just because the Germans were lead by a crazy evil lunatic, doesnt make them bad. As the Stormtroopers all didnt follow the dark jedi. They really need to reshoot these movies with a little modernizations.

 

you should watch the ANH part of Empire of Dreams. SW was made as a pure Good vs Evil film because everything else was anti-heroes and moral ambiguity...