ST It wasn't All Bad

See, I disagree a bit. I think that themes, character arcs, and lore can be more valuable to some fans/people than others. Some would ask: What good is a great story if it's not told/executed very well?

You have to admit, it's hasn't been until recently that the "ever subjective and often shifting 'consensus' " has begun to swing more favorably for the Prequel Trilogy. There are a number of factors behind this of course...which is another conversation. Yet, the fact remains that to a large section of fans and general audiences, the Prequels were (still are) much maligned and have been the subject of ridicule, scorn, etc. George Lucas "raped my childhood."

For the most part, I agree with you about ROTJ. IMO I think it's strongest moments (the throne room) outstrip even even our beloved ESB in terms of drama.

That said, I think it's far too early to claim that the PT has established a "reputation victory" over the ST. First of all, as I said, it took the PT 20+ years to earn this reputation. Let's way a few decades for this current generation to grow up and defend BB-8 and his crew to make a definitive call.

Secondly, it's always kinda "cool" amongst a certain group of to slag off on something that's new/popular when it comes to SW. You are starting to see it a bit around here with Mandalorian even. It's been this way since the mid 80's. There is a lot to like about the ST and I am quite confident that, if the PT can gain a more positive rep amongst fans, that the ST will as well.

Again, I have to disagree a bit.

First of all, I don't think people/fans have formed a consistent value scale for judging Star Wars... at all. On these boards, I see a huge variety of tastes, judgements, and choices and a huge variety of reasoning/explanation/expectations behind these choices. I see people slag off on the gold standard of SW, ESB, with more and more frequency on these very boards. People like/love Star Wars for different reasons and judge each entry accordingly and specifically....

Wasn't the Kamino Cloning facility destroyed in Clone Wars/Bad Batch?

 

It may seem crazy now, but I could totally see a future where the obviously haphazard nature of the ST's "story" weirdly becomes a part of the charm of those movies' appeal once the dust has settled. Similar to how there was a sort of acceptance/appreciation of the PT's awkward dialogue/acting.

 

I truly have a hard time believing that. I think the fans who already love it, will use 'haphazard storytelling' in their list of things they love about it. But the fans that don't ... aren't going to suddenly love it in ten years because it's "bad" qualities are quirky.

 

Look at it this way... Things like Jar Jar Binks, Anakin's lines about sand, etc are all much bemoaned PT moments that have (to many) become part of the charm that is the ever meme-able Prequel Trilogy.

 

I mean, I'm not saying that the same exact folks who hated the acting/dialogue in the PT (or the bad storytelling in the ST) don't/will suddenly love it 15-20 years later. I don't think most would've expected the PT's dialogue to become endearing to a not insignificant section of fans. But that cohort did emerge and the meme-ness of those negative qualities became part of the overall charm of the trilogy for many.

 

agreed

Honestly its your opinion i respect but like i don't think you get my points is why he is the best choice. Actually i neglected to mention one more point he is big bad throughout all six films

 

yes my master truly you are the greatest sith lord

 

Sorry… whose the big bad throughout six films… and which six films do you mean?

 

Again, I think it's waaaaaay too early, and I think this forum/site is a bit too niche, to accurately gauge majority SW fan opinions on this.

Consider: Most of us witnessed the announcement, creation, and delivery of the ST in real time. We were witness to how the cookies were made as it was happening. Therefore, our owns hopes, desires, thoughts for story lines/character development (and our reactions) were also immediate and reactionary in real time.

Unlike the OT/PT, SW fans have not had decades to digest, ruminate on, and live with the entirety of the ST.

Also, I think building off the ST era will be less troublesome than building off of ROTJ....that's probably a whole other thread/discussion.

You might be right, but this is like saying Padme fans are never going to get over how her character was handled/altered in Episode 3. The fact is, a large section of fans have either moved on/gotten over it, or simply always accepted Padme's ROTS characterization for what it is. These things usually don't remain as egregious they initially are/seem.

Again, this is like the fans (back in the day) that hated Leia being shoehorned/retconned into being Luke's sister or fans that despised Ewoks. These things become muted with time and people either accept the movies for what they are, or they move on.

Eh. They made sequels to the Phantom Menace and that movie was widely reviled by people as well. Revenge of the Sith relaxed a lot of the ill will aimed at Episode 1 and 2. A really good SW movie that takes place after TROS would do the same. Again, give it time. Tangentially, it's like how Rocky Balboa made Rocky 5 a much easier pill/film to swallow.

Current SW movies/shows have started to successfully incorporate elements of the PT and people are cool with it despite how derided and divisive those films were. Example: All the of the confounding, half baked, Sifo-Dyas/cloning malarky is starting to be untangled and leveraged into current Star Wars lore. I can see no reason why the same cannot happen with elements from the ST.

 

I imagine the only way the sequels are going to be regarded in a more positive/forgiving light, is if the next trilogy is even worse than the ST. And in that scenario, no one wins…

 

One day there will be so much Star Wars material that its really not gonna matter.

 

I feel like we are almost there anyways...

 

Lol aren't we talking dath sidious? jeez

 

Well to be honest, the punctuation in your previous reply didn’t make your point obvious… I didn’t know if you were referring to Palpatine, Plagueis or Snoke as Plagueis. But as already mentioned, if the logic is that Palpatine was the villain in the PT and OT, so must therfoe be the villain in all future films, then that would be seriously limiting Star Wars, and is seriously unimaginative. The obvious point to have Palpatine die was ROTJ, because that was the organic end point of the narrative I.e the defeat of the Empire/the Sith and the restoration of the Jedi.

 

I have to say this isn’t very reassuring, as someone who thinks the Sifo-Dyas plot line was fairly simple and straightforward in AOTC and the EU’s contributions serve only to make it worse.

 

Agreed - the Sifo-Dyas plot point was relatively simple. Fans have an obvious tendency to over-think things, and maybe that was in part due to the name Sifo-Dyas sounding uncomfortably similar to Sidious. I have a sneaky suspicion that it probably was Sidious, whom was name checked in the original script (as Jango mentions Tyranus too), but maybe Lucas thought it then made the answer to the mystery too obvious and them changed it to make it look like it perhaps was an existing Jedi master?

 

Who would have thought that after a 2 year and still going pandemic and at the brink of WW3 with both of which are causing huge economic problems as well as real suffering and death all over the world people would still complain about a series of movies not meeting their expectations...

Its so blown out of porpotions.

 

This is a Star Wars forum, subcategory Prequels. Just because people don't talk about world-threatening crisis here, doesn't mean they don't feel them or prioritize them. So that's a complete strawman argument.

 

No kidding.

I haven't spoken or thought about the ST in months, but after reading about the news (and dealing with new baby, sick family, pandemic, job loss, wife's postpartum depression, etc) sometimes it nice to step away and vent on something meaningless.

It could be worse though. I could spend my time posting on Star Wars message boards, insulting and lamenting other posters for talking about Star Wars.

 

This is all still very much looking at the trilogy from from the perspective of today's standards. In the future, people won't have 2 years between movies to wait/develop expectations for the characters and storylines and that'll produce a different kind of relationship with these movies. Resultantly you won't have "Finn fans" or "Rey fans" in the same mold or with the same ideas about these characters. The character's portrayal across all 3 movies will be taken more in as one portrayal and less as 3 discrete portrayals the way we experienced it as these movies came out.

I'm absolutely not saying it's some kinda certainty, but it's hard to predict how culture/discourse will evolve and how that'll intersect with folks watching these movies in new contexts 10-20 years later. Really all the things you're saying ("People will never like the ST for all the same reasons people were disappointed by them today") I could say about the PT. You could've said the PT will never be seen as good cause "Padme fans" will never be satisfied with her portrayal or cause "Vader fans" don't like Anakin's portrayal. Or because the acting is unacceptable, Jar Jar is too cringe or unbearable to watch, or because AOTC is too cheesy and OTT...etc.

It's not that these viewpoints went away by any means, but that they became less universal as more people watched these films with different sets of expectations, the benefit of hindsight, the understanding that George Lucas has maybe too much creative freedom, etc. Again it's hard to predict how these things will go, and what role new materials in the ST-era could also play in changing these dynamics.

 

It's not really limiting to star wars or unimaginative for me because your basically reinventing the character and adding new lore to him. I do want something new but for me, if they did add some new character that would've just made them go a different direction. Also, legends did the same, and also maul come back but i guess its a different opinions mine is that palpatine is the only choice since i want more lore about plaptine.

 

I was more arguing what was better for Star Wars, and what was more limiting to new ideas/concepts, rather than personal preferences per se. It’s not up to me to tell you which characters you want to see come back. That’s totally your prerogative. But personally, I think Palpatine’s inclusion in the ST (certainly as it stands) doesn’t add anything, it just makes the ST appear even more derivative and out of ideas.