PT "It's all Obi-Wan's fault!" and why I love this underrated line

Think Ozymandias in the Watch en comic. He was popular with his frienda and seen as a good guy all around. It was part of what made his turn memorable. Actually it's how any heel turn works. Annakin is unlikeable from the start. A good director/writer could have found a way to show angst without resorting to diatribes about how unfair the world is, revenge induced killing sprees, and having the character show open disdain for the system he is supposed to protect. I think George Lucas is autistic and incapable of subtlety, which is why I think he was incapable of achieving a likeable character.
I do think it was handled a little bit better in Revenge of the Sith, with Palpatine's creepy seduction. The only problem is that Annakin was already older and perhaps more cynical. It's poor progression to go from horribad youth to cynical adult. It would be better if he was uncorrupted and changed his views rather than that he was basically bad but really unlucky and dull enough to commit his life to evil because he got tricked into not seeing that his bad luck was partly because of the person he swore undying loyalty to.

 

You're talking about two different things. What you're talking about in-universe and what you perceive as an issue from the real world perspective. They are different things. In real life, you're supposed to see Ozymandias as a prick whereas everyone else didn't. First off, Anakin is liked by his friends. In AOTC, Obi-wan looks upon him as a son, Padme falls in love with him, Jar Jar is excited to see him, Mace has faith in him, Palpatine is a mentor and the droids are every bit as loyal as before. Second, the story is that Anakin is being prepped by Palpatine to become Vader. That means that the part of him that will become Vader was the part that took issue with his training and had a violent temper. The part of him that was Anakin had great power, but much anger in him as Yoda states. So he has the likable quality, but he also has the parts of him that will become the monster that he will be.

Anakin was normal when he was on Tatooine, where he knew nothing of greed and was very compassionate. Then we see him starting to transition towards Vader. Vader is who he becomes not because he was unlucky, but because he was greedy and selfish. He's not basically bad. He's been twisted by the dark side.

 

I find his perceived likeability forced and unconvincing. I also said that he should be portrayed as somehow flawed in order to wilfully become Vader, but the movie foes indeed make it look like he was tricked and confused because of things outside his control, so it failed to make him good to begin with and it somehow made his fall from grace unconvincing as well. I also don't count the kid as the same character because it really isn't other than the name.

 

Great post. Right on. These films actually have great emotional dialogue if one listens with an emotional ear. Unlike the above poster, I find it one of the most believable things about the films. Being around emotional people growing up, and being emotional myself, George wrote and Hayden delivered those scenes pretty accurately I must say.

And of course, where would Anakin have learnt that? As a slave. I swear, there's so much to mine there, I know I've been saying for forever that I should write an essay on it but I might get on that soon because it's so important. But essentially, yes, as a slave Anakin learnt for the first 9 years of his existence that he could be bought and sold without his or his mother's consent, all because the powers-that-be have the power to do it. Where's right or wrong? There is no right or wrong. There's just power, and keeping what's mine. That has a tremendous impact on one's psychology. And even after Anakin was a slave, he was still surrounded by powers much larger than him -- the Jedi Council and the Galactic Senate -- where tremendous power yielded tremendous benefits. The Senate was corrupt with power and the Jedi Council was exactly what it sounds like -- it was a high council, not a democracy where they polled all the Jedi to see what to do or any such thing. I can't imagine elections in the Jedi Order. There's a power structure there. So much of Anakin's arc has to do with him being placed in power structures and having to navigate himself in them. His descent to Darth Vader is, sadly, very believable and realistic.

Anyway, just expanding on what you wrote. I will write more on this soon because it is so vital to everything. But yes. Anakin believes that Might Makes Right because Anakin learnt that from a young age -- that the true way to 'right' and free agency was having power over others.

 

Reading the original script in the comic The Star Wars - which has great art and is worth the money for fans - showed me beyond a doubt that George has no idea how human beings actually relate to each other.

It would be more interesting if Anakin had some sort of antisocial viewpoint from the beginning but it isn't expressed in the movie. Nothing is implied by his behavior really. I think it could have been a lot better if they went that direction. People who believe that generally don't tend to show their weakness to people they hardly know. Even when talking to civilians he sounds more like a moody, sheltered kid playing at being tough. A lot less talk and more action would have helped his character.

I think they have a hard time doing badass characters. If Anakin was laconic and mostly stoic, he would be a throwback to older westerns or something. It would have fit with the character and he would have been a lot more likeable. After all, Qui Gon Jin was sort of like that and he was a good character (also he was similar to Anakin in some ways.) It's like you have to be evil to be mysterious. I would have liked him if he actually seemed wise or at least mature beyond his years. They made him into a fool.

 

But he is the kid that trying to look tough. It's like all the weight of the universe on his shoulders with all this politics, wars, intrigues all around and he want so much to stop but can't.

It's really looked like that you're just more prefer cool heroes who win every battle, get the girl and everyone love them (which is fine - I like this kind of characters too).

But not every character has to be like Han Solo. If Anakin was "a brooding misanthropic badass" from westerns I personally wouldn't care about him that much because he would be just another action hero. In Episode 3 he is respected man, hero of the war, with family (kinda), friends. He is earned his place in life. But he is still have much to learn and he is not perfect which is making him so interesting.
(also he couldn't be like Qui-Gon because he's not have enough experience yet )

Same with "if Anakin had some sort of antisocial viewpoint from the beginning" was explained over and over again even by Lucas himself. Main point - Anakin was a good guy but made wrong choices and many people horribly suffer because of that. One of the beautiful thing about Prequels is that it is story that teaches you that bad guys doesn't just appear from nowhere. They're was just like you. Even the best can be turn to the dark side if they're not careful. Which is why events of Episode III is such a tragedy.

Of course he was deceived but he let it happened himself because unlike Luke he let emotions clouded his mind. Which is perfectly illustrated in the garage scene which this thread explained. See how everything connected? Anakin doesn't suddenly became Vader in the end of RotS - he was slowly going down through all the trilogy.

 

I give it this credit.

"He's jealous! He's holding me back!" is now the definitive, go to line I think about when dealing with arrogant, delusional, self-centered idiots. You know the type, the type who think they have "swag" and "haters".

That line captures those types perfectly, and I appreciate it for that.

Of course, at first it was a pain to hear, but now it makes me laugh and it's one of my favorite PT lines.

 

Anakin is flawed in AOTC. His flaws are that he is arrogant, impatient and temperamental. They're all spelled out within the first forty five minutes. As to his being tricked, that was the point. He is deceived by a lie that he can be all powerful if he uses the dark side. Luke is also almost brought down the same way and indications are that Ben is the same way. Anakin thinks that he can control things out of his control and that is where Vader comes from.

 

Not to mention that this type of hero as I call them, the quarterback of the block, are boring and cliched. And actually Luke was not that hero either. No matter that I find in him more characteritics of his mother, he is the hero type like his father. Anakin is weird: is part of his charm, actually. Anakin is intelligent and fast thinking : there a lot of moments in AOTC that prove that (for example, he immediately notes the reasons that would make Padme oppose to what the Jedi Council had decided and he was right) so calling him a fool is strange. No more strange than call Lucas autistic (I really hope that you have no idea what autism really means). Lucas is weird: absolutely, but it is a compliment for an artist, not a problem. He made Anakin weird but charming (not only for Padme) intelligent but naive (as many intelligent people) good hearted but with temper. I like the multi-dimentional and complex, I would say even realistic approach to the central character of the Saga. What a relieve that Anakin was not the typical boring one dimentional typical comics hero character. Now this is really subtle presentation. The moment of this line shows that too. Anakin expressed a range of emotions : with and after it than a typical badass could never have.

 

I agree. Despite what some people saying I think Luke and Anakin has much more similarities. Especially in second movies of trilogies. They both struggling and think that they can deal with problems if they punch things hard enough and both failed. But difference that they learned different things in third movies. When Luke understands that he should be more careful and wiser - Anakin still thinks that he was just not powerful enough (again, back to this garage dialogue).

 

I disagree that Anakin doesn't suddenly become Vader. He absolutely changes character instantaneously. I will admit that his burning scene is very well done and that I can't really complain about much of the acting after he kills Mace...aside from the absolutely wretched deliver of lines on the landing platform before he begins the Obi Wan fight.

It isn't that Anakin is unlike a traditional hero - it's that he is unlikeable and - much worse - he is impossible to take seriously. There are lots of ways they could have portrayed him: brooding, fiery, calculating, taciturn...and they failed to establish a character of any sort. There is no consistency between an unlikeable young man, an odious child, and an intimidating older man. Rather than believably being portrayed as someone who lived through hardship and war, I get nothing from the character whatsoever. You can say that on paper, he fits all of the qualifications because of the logical process of all the events and his decisions. I'm sure the books have an inner monologue which makes a lot more sense. None of this comes across in the film, at least not successfully.

 

I'm sorry to say it, but those are just statements. You are trying to extrapolate your vision of Anakin, as he should be in your point of view (for example, fiery: but why on Earth he should be that) as it is the right thing to do but you don't give us arguments about that. You don't like this Anakin, fine, it is completely OK, but it is obvious that exactly here in this forum the majority doesn't feel the same and I think it is obvious why, it is the prequel trilogy forum after all. Again you are expressing your view of what is Anakin in the movie as it is completely obvious that he is that character no matter that this statement again could be discussed. As I said, I agree completely that anybody can think whatever he/she wants but as these are opinions, it could be fine if you present some arguments as everybody here does about his/her opinion.
For example this: you said that Anakin is odious child. Why? Who exactly hated or disliked him in TPM? Except Sebulba, of course but even he detested him for being slave and his competitor in the races. Even Watto didn't hate Anakin. Anakin who helped twice…or maybe 3 times to some completely strange people and he helped them because they were in trouble: first when he resolved the conflict between Sebulba and Jar Jar, second when he offered them a shelter from the sand storm and the third time, risking his life he won the necessary means for their ship. Not to mention that he practically saved Naboo in the battle: with a little luck but still, he did it. So, why the viewers should hate him or dislike him? Because he says yupiee? I could continue about the AOTC Anakin (including what I said in my previous post) but let's not derail the thread; there are enough threads to discuss Anakin as character, for example here http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...-most-complex-character-in-the-saga.50038860/.
Just one note: let’s accept for a moment that you are right: that wee see an odious child, unpleasant young man and an intimidating adult (in OT). Where exactly lays the inconsistency? Obviously in your point of view he is just unlikable person and as such he naturally becomes an evil Sith Lord. Nothing suddenly and unexpected. Not to mention that here with this line he expressed discontent and jealousy (no matter that I think as Padme that something is not like it looks) so it would be also a very consistent line for such character.

 

His unlikeable and a bad character because his role in the film is poorly executed. From what it shows the audience, he is a horrible human being who annoys or scares everyone around him except sometimes Padme.

The character portrayed is inconsistent with Vader in almost every way as well as with the formative events everyone mentioned. It makes sense to describe him as being prone to being antisocial but, again, none of this is what the movies actually show us. If you have to explain it outside the movie then it basically makes the same point; the character doesn't work because he was written and acted poorly.

 

How is he annoying? Because he complains? So did Luke and a lot of people called him as such. Scares people? Who is scared of him? Only when he turns, does he actually frighten people.

 

I don't think he needs explanation, is what you are saying. And I'm afraid to say it but I cannot agree that Obi Wan is scared of him, all the opposite, he is not, nor Yoda, nor even Mace. In TPM they think the boy is dangerous but that has nothing to do with fear. They just suspect that his training in the Jedi ways could turn to unexpected results. But after all, they decided to do it. In Ep.2 they even gave him a mission: protect the life of a Senator. How could the wisest Jedi do that if they are scared of him? I'm sorry but this an example of inconsistency, also when in the same time Mace said that the boy has exceptional skills and maybe is the Chosen one. How that can be an example of fear???? Obi Wan is skeptical but not because he fears of his own apprentice but because he thinks that Anakin is not ready for that. But as we can see he said that he loves him, even in AOTC he is worried about him, he said that, he showed that. I don’t need an explanation because the feelings of Obi Wan are shown and declared several times in the PT.

Again, about your opinion that he is unpleasant, I’m sorry to say it but after what I said in my previous post, I think your statement needs an explanation. Not to mention that the so called “unpleasant” Anakin saved the life of his master in Ep.3 and he tried to do that in Ep.2 (with no big success but anyway, he wanted to) or that that he even cares for the clones and the rest of the Jedi see them as tools of war... Should I mention his desperate attempt to save his mother. It ended in complete disaster but the expressed feelings for his mother were nothing but love and suffering. Also I dare say that only a good person has conscience and can feel guilt even for such monsters and animals, but anyway, the situation in the Tusken village is rather complicated, I must say.

But then again, what I asked if why is he inconsistent with Vader if you think that Anakin is bad and unpleasant. Vader is 'twisted ad evil' and I don't even think we need more arguments to prove it: in OT there are plenty of them, so where is the inconsistency? If you think that Anakin was bad in his early years, he naturally ended up in a monster in his adult years. I don't see the dilemma, actually. The dilemma exists only about people like me who think that everybody in the movie or al least his friends ad 'colleagues' like him, he is good hearted man who also had really love a woman, so how this man turned in the evil half machine-half man we see in OT? The short answer is in tragic but unfortunately very consistent way and the death of his mother was essential part of it.

 

No it's inconsistent to see a fragile character with no control of his emotions who never stops talking turn into Vader. What I mean isn't that he goes from good to bad in short order, but that he acts completely different. There is no slow descent into darkness from a more graceful state, and that's only a small part of it. I think he should have been a good guy to begin with. What is more jarring is just the way he has absolutely none of the characteristics he shows when he puts the mask on. They are basically two entirely different characters.

You might say that's kind of like what Obi Wan said with the good man who was Anakin dying, but I think it's really just because of bad writing, worse acting, and bad directing.


I wouldn't care if they didn't have the potential for more. Anakin is the biggest missed opportunity in the prequels. All their flaws aside, I don't hate the movies. I do hate Anakin's portrayal though.

 

He is a good person before he goes to the dark side and it is a slow descent. In TPM, we see him as the good and kind child who only wants to help. In AOTC, we see him struggling between good and evil. We see him do good things and try to be a good person, but he's also been manipulated his whole life into thinking the opposite way. Lucas was specific in wanting to show that Palpatine was influencing him.

"Here with Obi-Wan we get a little sense that Anakin has some relationship with Palpatine and that he likes Palpatine. In the last film we set up the fact that Palpatine was gonna watch after Anakin."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

"I had all these hints that Palpatine had been helping Anakin. But I needed an explicit scene that actually spelled it out. And where you can see some of Anakin’s dialogue later on has come from Palpatine."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

"In the original script, there were subtle inferences that there was some kind of relationship between Anakin and Palpatine. There was dialogue where Anakin said he thought Palpatine was a good Chancellor and not like other politicians, so it was obvious that he knew him. But when I saw the first cut of the movie, I realized that we needed to push that point harder. As it was, the inferences were a little bit too subtle. Although the relationship between Anakin and Palpatine doesn't really relate to this movie - it's more important to the next movie - I had to set that up because it was important in the overall arc of the story. So I wrote that little scene to show Palpatine's influence on Anakin and his role as a mentor."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

"So we have this little picnic where Anakin brings out the uncomfortable subject of previous boyfriends which boys have a tendency to do, and then we get into this political discussion which allows us to get a little insight into Anakin and Palpatine's influence over Anakin and some of his thought process."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

That's why there was the scene where Palpatine first takes notice of Anakin in TPM and then AOTC establishes that there is a friendship between them, before we see the fall in ROTS. That influence is what informs Anakin's attitude in Act II, when he talks about Obi-wan holding him back. It shows us that when a Sith Lord is influencing a Jedi, you'll wind up having a Vader. This is the opposite of Luke who is free from Vader's influence until they confront each other and then Luke is affected by it in ROTJ.

 

I agree with Obi Wan, they look like 2 different characters, but still there are traces of Vader in Anakin and it is exactly the anger. Controlling the anger is crucial point about every Jedi (I would say every person). The Jedi train to go out of any emotions, exactly being afraid of the anger that leads to the Dark Side. Anakin is emotional: it is his great strenght (he makes strong bonds with the others exactly for that) but in the same time is his bigger flaw, because his emotions and mostly the fear, the impatience and his bad-at some moments-temper and of course Palpatine‘s impact lead him to Darth Vader. Speaking of that, I still don‘t understand why you don‘t see anything of Vader in him? I thought that this about the anger is obvious, the difference is that Vader don‘t hesitate to release it.

 

Isn't that the whole point of Anakin's fall to the dark side? Once he's been told that Padme is dead, Anakin begins to delve deeper into his "Darth Vader" persona as a way to disassociate himself from the man he used to be. Even behind the mask, we do see some of Anakin's personality traits within Vader like:

-his quick temper whenever he force chokes an imperial officer.
-his defiance when he enters the Death Star to speak to the Emperor despite being told to remain on the command ship.
-his arrogance during his duel with Obi-wan ("When I left you, I was but a learner. Now, I am the master!")
-his desire for control ("Join me and together, we can rule the galaxy as father and son")
And
-his fierce loyalty to his family especially by the end of Return of the Jedi.

Basically, the whole "Vader not having any of Anakin's personality traits" complaint is entirely not true.

 

I know that the book TPM is no longer considered cannon, but I copied this from the book that I believe touches on Anakin's feelings. There were numerous occasions where Anakin over hears conversations where Obi-Wan is arguing with Qui-Gon regarding the council's decision not to train him. I believe that Anakin always felt that Obi-Wan had no faith in him.

“But his happiness and satisfaction were clouded by the sadness he could not banish at losing Qui-Gon and his mother both. They were lost to him in different ways, to be sure, but they were gone out of his life. Qui-Gon had provided the stability he required to leave his mother behind. With the Jedi Master’s death, Anakin was left adrift. There was no one who could give him the grounding that Qui-Gon had provided—not Obi-Wan, not even Padmé.”

Excerpt From: Brooks, Terry. “The Phantom Menace: Star Wars: Episode I.” Ballantine Books, 2012-01-31. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

 

I thought that one was cannon its not part of the EU . the pt is cannon .

 

Absolutely! What's really important about this moment is that Anakin's issue with Obi Wan is a real part of the character. This issue rears it's head earlier in the movie, it's not simply a moment of blame that can be written off as being despair or grief. It's a real part of him, that is setup earlier in the movie when Anakin is more level headed and stable. So we see that the greedy part of Anakin that wants more but is suppressed by Obi Wan, shown to us earlier in the movie when Anakin is talking to Padme, gets blown up when Anakin is in an emotional state and allows his anger to get behind those earlier greedy impulses.

For me it's just a prefect example of how Lucas wrote Anakin as a complete character in AOTC. We look at scenes with Anakin, at different points in the movie, and see how really nothing comes out of the blue. A lot of it is interconnected with earlier scenes that allow us to see that Anakin's actions and mentalities have a basis in and coexist in the world he lives in.

Another factor at play here in the garage scene is the influence that is being put on Anakin from Palpatine. Again, another perfect example of how the foundtation of Anakin's outburst is laid out in other parts of the movie.

Palpatine: I have said it many times. You are the most gifted Jedi I have ever met.... .....I see you becoming the greatest of all the Jedi, Anakin. Even more powerful than Master Yoda.

So later int he garage scene, we see Anakin regurgitate the things that Palpatine has said to him:

Anakin: Someday I will be the most powerful Jedi ever. I promise you.


Now this is just my opinion obviously, and just a generalization. I just think so many people are used to checklist like character development ( like we see in many movies these days) where they don't have to reference prior scenes in order to understand the characters issues and motivations. They want exact moments of this or that emotion to be checked off like a laundry list.

In my eyes, I love that we have to go back and reference the earlier scenes with Anakin and Padme, and Anakin and Palpatine in order to fully grasp what's going on in the garage scene...

 

how about the line in ROTS where he says he hates Obi-Wan? Why did he put all of his anger and hate onto just Obi-Wan in that scene? That always bugs me.

 

He hates Obi-wan because he just sliced him up and is leaving him to burn. Part of Anakin truly believed that Obi-wan wouldn't kill him, much less injure him in such a way. Yet, he did. He blames Obi-wan for that and for turning Padme against him. He blames him for being held back for as long as he was. And he blames him for not helping him when he needed it.

 

I actually blame Obi-Wan myself but I know also he was doing his best and had the best intentions.

I guess I'm not sure that I regarded little Ani as "good" per se... I mean I know that he does a lot of good to help others and he cares and if this is not "good" then what is... Mainly though little Ani already had a huge ego and this need to brag and impress others: I am so special, I'm the only human who can race pods, I built this protocol droid all by myself, I am a brilliant mechanic... So on. Then Qui-Gon arrives from the stars to tell Anakin how special he is. And not only is he special. He is the 'Chosen One.'

Anakin at this point wants to use his abilities to help those around him. He wants to save people, free the slaves, use his power for good. It feeds his ego though also to save people, to be the strong one... to be powerful ("the lust for power"). Shmi doesn't help a lot in this because although she rules/guides Anakin's actions (and I don't remember him having a problem with that in the least), she does let him take on the role of protector in his mind and in some ways he's the dominant one in the parent-child relationship. Shmi can't help this entirely because she's a slave too and has her duties that she can't escape. I bet it's really difficult to raise a kid like that (when it's out of your control when you can be there for him). It makes Anakin have to be more independent at an early age.

So Anakin already looks at his mom as someone he needs to be strong for and expects so much of himself (I think he already believes that he must free the two of them). Shmi feeds this. She places a lot of hope in her son (his expectations of himself mirror this). In short, he's a little boy with a lot on his shoulders.

Qui-Gon would have been a more ideal master for Anakin I think because he wasn't really a traditional Jedi (he was okay with being unconventional). I think he would have been able to help Anakin better with his ego and perhaps also not allow this relationship Obi-Wan allowed where Anakin is basically opposed in attitude to his master's instruction at almost all times. Anakin thinks he knows better but has to play this game of fake agreement until he can finally gain independence from Obi-Wan, and in this he is acting almost more like a Sith apprentice (Obi-Wan has power in his position and Anakin wants free of it so he can be the most powerful). I saw Qui-Gon as rather arrogant himself and as someone who would probably understand the allure of power from his own life experiences since he had managed to balance his more arrogant tendencies so they wouldn't interfere with the Light Side of the Force. Anakin needed to learn humility (and unfortunately he does finally learn on Mustafar after his arrogance has cost him greatly).

The problem with the Jedi is they would never approve, say, a mission to go to Tatooine again and get Ani's mom. Using the Force to do this would be seen as abuse of power? It is outside of their rigid practices? Basically it is frustrating how much Anakin's hands are tied, making him all the more fit for Palpatine's purposes in the Clone Wars. Anakin is eager to play the hero--to finally use his abilities to get something done. If only Palpatine hadn't been twisting his childhood dream of using his powers to help people into something darker (see, Palpatine understood psychology unlike the Jedi). The Jedi could have altered the entire outcome of things just by getting Anakin's mom, but their practice is to separate Force sensitive kids from their parents.

Everyone was there in the council room to hear Yoda mention little Ani's great flaw: his need for his mother and his fear to leave her and be on his own--something that he clearly wasn't ready for. It seems the entire time Obi-Wan was training him, this was not solved. Anakin in AotC is even more afflicted regarding his mother (the need has only grown over the years) and his arrogant ways haven't been tempered in the least, just disguised by his insincerity. Teen Anakin is a total disaster basically and I know that Palpatine has been influencing him, but I blame Obi-Wan and the Jedi primarily for watching Anakin's flaws grow over the years and doing nothing about them. And if they didn't even notice the flaws growing, that is even worse.

In the garage scene, yes Anakin is upset and assigning blame as an outlet for his anger... but I find it amazing how when I'm upset, little resentments that I thought I had cleared from my mind return and I have to once again reason out with myself how these resentments are based on things that aren't true. Anakin does blame Obi-Wan, even when he is not angry and grieving, but his higher reasoning and positive emotions probably keep this in check. As soon as he turns, watch all of it come flying back: every resentment against Obi-Wan and the Jedi. Sometimes people say things when they're upset that they don't mean, but this is a pattern. Palpatine of course helps to keep it a pattern.

As for congruency to the character of Darth Vader, I also thought I was looking at basically two different characters... I've been re-examining this again lately. But regardless I was dissatisfied with the PT depiction of Anakin in Eps. 2-3. And I still feel something is missing.