ST Kylo Ren/Adam Driver Discussion Thread

I have never seen TROS and don’t plan to, but I know about everything that happened in that film, and it certainly wouldn’t have been for me either. It didn’t resurrect Luke skywalker. ( They could have said that he didn’t die, but transported to another world at the end of TLJ.) It didn’t allow Luke to train Rey or other Jedi as a still living being or as a force ghost. It didn’t give Luke back the legacy of restoring the Jedi order. It didn’t take away the culpability of Luke in kylo’s fall to evil that TLJ presented. It didn’t give Luke an heroic role in the film. It didn’t make Rey a true skywalker, a daughter of Luke’s. Instead, it had Rey steal the name. The film killed Kylo, but let him be heroic and redeemed at the end. I wanted him to die evil. The filmmakers endorsed Reylo through that stupid kiss, which is one of the worst things that could have been done, in my opinion. There are many other things that I hated about TROS. However, the worst of all was that it brought back Palpatine and made rey his daughter. This turned the Skywalker saga into the Palpatine saga, and made the OT films pointless and null and void. Now, it’s not Anakin, who destroyed the Sith and was the chosen one , but Rey Palpatine. The skywalkers are the losers. They failed at everything. It’s the Palpiatines who were victorious in the end.

So, NO, even though I despised TLJ, TROS was definitely NOT for me. It didn’t give me anything at all that I wanted. It made things even worse than they were after TLJ for Luke, leia, Han, Anakin, and the OT films, and I didn’t think that could be possible. It was the final nail in the coffin of the OT films and characters.

 

That would kind of remove the point of his sacrificing himself, don't you think? (not to mention TLJ makes it clear he's dead in other ways other then his body disapearing, and I'm pretty sure Star Wars does'nt have transporters)

No, but it had Leia train Rey and had Luke impart some advice and wisdom upon Rey and contribute his power to her when she fought Palpatine.

You can't give something back when you never took it away - even if the Jedi had a false start, Luke still reformed them and Rey only has something to build off of becuase of his efforts, so the legacy is still very much there.

Why would it?

Well, leaving aside the fact that he already had a heroic moment in the last movie, why would it give him one in the third film? (though arguably it does, as his ghost is one of those that shows up to back Rey up during her fight with Palpatine). He's not a main character and it would be akin to Obi-Wan getting a heroic moment in ROTJ.

I'd rather they have revealed Rey as a Skywalker then a Palpatine, but I think both choices are stupid and would have sooner they just kept her as a none and closed the book on the Skywalkers.

Rey did'nt steal his name, though - becuase first of you can't steal words and secondly Luke and Leia clearly did'nt regard it as theft of any kind; in fact they seemed quite proud.

No, it's still the Skywalker saga (Rey rejects her past and legacy as a Palpatine when she takes the Skywalker name) and Anakin's still the chosen one who destroyed the Sith, it's just that while he restored the balance in his time Rey restored it in hers - Anakin himself says about as much in the film.

(nowhere in the film - or anywhere else - is it said Anakin's no longer the Chosen One and Rey is, and nowhere in the Chosen One prophecy is it said the Sith would be destroyed forever and the balance would be eternal - for all we know Anakin and Rey are just the latest in a long line of Jedi who were directed by the Force to restore balance in a time of "uneveness")

Their losers who failed at everything? Yeah, sure.

That's why the overthrew the Galactic Empire, helped restore the Republic and the Jedi, saved the Resistence (and the Jedi) from destruction, helped defeat Palpatine and the Sith a final time.

The Palpatine's defiantly are'nt victorious either; Palpatine himself got disintergated and had his plans come crashing down on him and his only living relative hates his guts and rejected both his legacy and his name in favor of not only becoming a Light Side Jedi but also assuming the surname of his enemies as said enemies looked on with pride.

 

I think it more has characters say they felt it, but they could've been revealed to be wrong.

 

Wrong about sensing him die through the Force? That would be pretty hard to swallow, especially since nobody's ever been wrong about that before.

"It was as if a thousand voices cried out in terror, and then were suddently silenced. I feel something terrible has happened...oh no, wait, here we are at Alderaan, I guess it was nothing!"

 

I passionately love Kylo, Pendragon passionately hates him....
But we agree on one thing - having all the Skywalkers die out and Palpatine's granddaughter shown standing in the ruins of the Skywalker farm, is about as hopeful and satisfying as WW3.

 

I wish Disney had closed the book on the Skywalkers with "Return of the Jedi" and simply left the family alone. Because the studio has screwed up the family saga for all eternity.

 

DOTF script. This looks a bit like the jedi voices scene...and also like Ben after disappearing. Ben was Kylo's 'true self', just like Anakin was Vader's.

 

I think they can be. Considering, the whole situation, and the characters being casual about it, and Rey not really having much of a relationship with Luke, eh. I'd accept it.

 

To me, this was more something TLJ did as far as things that movie did directly in fiction. Whether her name is Palpatine or not, I prefer her over Ben.

 

Genuine question...... why?

 

Ben isn't that interesting to me, there's that potential romance with him and Rey, and I'm at least personally more invested in Rey as a fictional, than him. The only time I though he had much of a personality was after he turned away from the dark side. That was one of the few times I bought him as someone with an engaging personality, and that he felt like the son of Han and Leia, to me, in theory.

 

I think you are making assumptions. There is nothing in that quote that refers to consciousness, cognisance or sentience living on after death. You are interpreting it subjectively. It doesn't really matter if it were written in Lucas' own blood. Life doesn't necessarily cease after death... but the point is atoms, microbes, genetic matter, energy, and even others memories are life. You are interpreting it as the retention of an identity, a consciousness etc. Not the same thing.

 

In fact, that interpretation just kind of waters down how much being able to become a Force Ghost is a big deal. That being that it is the ultimate expression of a Jedi's ideology. Being able to retain one's identity in the Force. Not as a form of immortality in search of physical power but as merely being.

 

Yes exactly. Which is why I don't believe it was ever Lucas' intention to allude to the notion that everyone and anyone retained their identities after death. And of course, this is compounded in TROS when we hear the voices of Mace Windu et al, whom never learnt the ability to retain their identity after death. Abrams really should have watched the OT and PT before making a Star Wars film.

 

I did read somewhere that he didn't have much time for the PT, but I could be wrong.

 

Great stuff here and somehow I agree with both of you even though the posts sort of negate each other out or whatever. Both sides make valid points. The one thing I do hate is that Rey gets the Skywalker name . That’s just not cool. It also does make the series more about the Palpatines when Star Wars entire idea was the redemption of anakin Skywalker.

No question that this is possibly the best course of action they could have taken. It might have worked out better to just start the sequels far enough forward into the future and had left our original heroes out of it completely. The Skywalker storyline ties up perfectly at the end of ROTJ as it is. This is why for many fans, Star Wars ends with ROTJ. I get the idea and understand why they feel that way.

 

I don't mind it. Don't get me wrong; I don't like that she's a Skywalker or a Palpatine but I certainly don't see the saga as a competition between the two families.

If Rey rejects Palpatine's name, legacy and ideology in favor of adopting Luke's name, legacy and ideology, how is it a victory of the former's family over the latter's? I guess becuase Rey's biologically a Palpatine and their are no biological Skywalker's left? But that just seems to place far too much importence on biology then is warrented over personal actions, choices and historical legacy; at the end of the day it's Rey's choices and actions that define who she is, not who she's related to or what surname she choses to put on her biusness card.

That's probobly becuase you put more stock in the Skywalkers then I ever did. They were never that importent or central to my Star Wars experience and frankly at this point I'm rather sick of them.

And what about Leia? She definantly had a relationship with Luke and she sensed his death as well. What about the fact that we see him disapear and become one with the Force?

The only time I thought he had personality was before he turned way. He was a much, much more interesting and compelling character to me before then, especially in the state he was at the end of TLJ.

Then agian that's proboby not suprising I feel that way, since post-redemption he does'nt even talk

This is'nt biological life we're talking about, though, but spiritual life.

If Lucas was influanced by Taoism then I don't see why not, since its theology believes in eternal life and teaches that death is just another "phase" in life.

Would'nt this seem to support the idea that everyones consciousness survives?

That being said Anakin did'nt learn the ability retain his identity after death either but still did, so I'd say Abrams did watch the OT at least

Eh, I understand too but I think it just depends what kind of Star Wars fan you are; I saw the OT before the PT ever came out and was always more into the EU anyway, so to me Star Wars was never about the Skywalker's and Anakin Skywalker just kinda "hijacked" the films come the second trilogy.

 

Yes, I'm baffled how turning back to the light rendered Ben Solo mute.
I mean, I've heard of 'blinded by the light' but never 'tongueless'....

 

Maybe he figured he had said enough to Rey in the first 2 and a half movies.

 

Well exactly. It's not life in it's literal sense as we'd understand it. It's about cosmic energy, and how we are made up of that energy, and what we leave of our cosmic energy once our mortal bodies are gone.

Taoism certainly believes we are 'eternal', but it doesn't regard the afterlife as many other religions do... certainly not if you read the 'older' Taoism books, which focus on the transfer of energy into others, and the loss of memory (or soul) as your energy moves on. 'New' Taoism is a little more pragmatic about the afterlife, and keys into the more contemporary human condition of desiring an extension of consciousness and memory into the beyond. However, it's worth noting that (in general) Taoism is about 'life', and living it in balance and harmony, and not about living to secure a place in the afterlife.

If your asking me if I think that, in Abrams' universe, all Jedi have magically retained their consciousness? Then yes. But that's diametrically as odds with Lucas's vision... and I'd posit that Abrams hasn't got a clue what he was writing about when penning TFA/TROS, in terms of the inner working of Jedi and the force, but rather, he just though it would be 'cool'.

I'd have to search for direct quotes, but I'm pretty sure Lucas had said that Anakin was 'gifted' the ability as reward for bringing balance/being the chosen one. You know I'm a stickler for how things appear in the films... so based on the films alone, yes, Lucas created a gap in logic by bringing back Anakin without training... and I'm surprised he didn't make it more circumscribe in the PT e.g. "the prophecy of the chosen one refers to the one who will bring balance to the force, and in doing so, will become eternal". That kind of thing... Perhaps he would have addressed it in his version of the sequels???

 

I'm not saying there's a "Force afterlife*" - just that life survives in some way after death according to Jedi beliefs, and personally to me it seems a bit meaningless if "life" refers to a just a mindless spirtual essense just floating around lacking individuality or a will of its own.

*though the concept of an afterlife at least exists in Star Wars, even if an actual one does'nt ("Then I'll see you in hell!")

I think their's a difference between your consciousness surviving death and retaining the ability to take form within, and influance, the physical world.

Anyway Lucas "vision" (assuming your right and that is his vision) stopped having any weight in shaping the francise when he sold the rights to it. Surely Star Wars should'nt be enslaved to what he "may" think, what he "might" do or how me "might" tell the story if he were still telling it forever and ever?

It seems far more likely to me that Obi-Wan and/or Yoda helped him out - they knew the secrets, he did'nt, so when he died they sought out his spirit and helped guide it alone the path it need to take to manifest itself physical as a Force Ghost.

 

Rise of Kylo Ren comic:

This exchange took place after the destruction of Luke's temple. Ben was still Ben, and not Kylo Ren. In the comic, Ben would face Ren, the leader of the KOR, later; and I think that's where Kylo Ren comes from.

So the stupid name from his childhood was Kylo, it would seem. JJ said Kylo was playing a role whenever he put his mask on; and maybe that name was the first mask he wore. Some kind of superhero name.
This would point to Ben's awakening, maybe. In anycase, he finally adopted that name, many years later, as if it expressed some continuity with his own childhood.

If it was 'stupid', let's say it was stupid: Skywalker+Solo?

 

Pretty obvious it was inspired by his real surnames.
Interesting that he chose such a name when he was trying to deny who he really was.

 

It's not 'meaningless' to the millions of people who believe that. They are quite content with the notion that, when they die, their energy becomes one with the cosmos. It's a quite beautiful thought, even if I personally prefer the idea of 'the good place'.

Yes - I'd imagine that within the SW universe, there are a myriad of different/competing religions (although I've not heard of one that doesn't involve the force in some way).

Again, differing belief systems. And I guess it depends on how much importance one places on being able to take form and influence. We know that Qui-Gon couldn't take form because he'd died before he'd learnt the skill, but he was attuned to the 'living force'... and the Whills, when he was in the netherworld, showed him the way. That Qui-Gon was able to come back, in some form, suggests that some essence of him still existed in the netherworld, but Taoism (and I suspect Lucas) would refer to that as his 'energy', without memory, rather than his 'soul'. Which is the distinction IMHO.

Well obviously. However, (and this is my observation from the ST) ignoring, or being ignorant of what's already been established, compromises internal logic, and inconsistencies become more prominent. Just because Disney can do what they want, doesn't mean they should.

As per above re. gaps in logic... Anakin being brought back by Yoda and Obi-Wan only works to create an inconstancy. Because if they can bring back Anakin, they can bring back every Jedi that ever existed... and what purpose does that serve (in terms of the internal logic) if that can't, for example, influence the fall of the New Republic and the deaths of millions at the hands of the First Order? Also, Rey being able to hear all these Jedi she never knew (TROS), now puts a sledgehammer through what was a relatively straight forward, and common understanding of how force ghosts interact i.e. they manifest themselves to those they had a close connection with.

 

That's not what I meant. I meant the phrase "the Jedi teach that life does'nt cease at death..." seems meaningless if life is'nt actually continiuing. I mean if they don't retain their intellegence and "soul" then life in this context makes them no better then flowers or grass, which just makes Kanan seem like a heartless jerk and Ezra and uncaring idiot, so I doubt that was what the Rebels writers were going for with that line.

All life-forms are attuned to the Living Force, but if Qui-Gon's memories and soul were gone how could he come back? Their would be nothing for the Whills or whoever else to bring back if that was the case.

It's not ingoring anything though - nowhere in the lore does it say only Force sensatives can retain their consiusness after death, and regarding it not being a nessesity to having training to become a ghost Lucas himself already set the precident with Anakin.

No offense but what seems to be happing is that the ST (like every Star Wars film made after ANH) is building on what was established prior and expanding the lore, but simply doing it in a way that you don't agree with - I'm sure plenty of peaple felt the same way about Midichlorians and the Mortis Gods as you do about how TROS shows the spirits to work (I know I still don't agree with the former) but that does'nt mean their's anything wrong with them.

That does'nt make any sense - what does finding Anakin's spirit and guiding him along the path to being able to manifest itself (assuming that's what happened) have to do with influancing the Republic?

It was never once said they can only manifest to whom they had a close connection - in fact Anakin manifested to Luke and I'd hardly say they had a *close* connection; hell, other then them being related and Vader devoloping a fatherly instinct towards Luke in his final moments they barely had any connection at all. (not to mention all the examples of ghosts appearing to peaple they had no connection with whatsoever from Legends, which while no longer canon sets precident)