ST Kylo Ren/Adam Driver Discussion Thread

Well, by the end of TFA, she did. You know, with that friend that Kylo nearly killed and that mentor/father figure that Kylo also brutally murdered. You know, one of the first people to have treated her like an actual human being. That's why her wanting to redeem Kylo is a really awkward decision that entirely undermines any potential for a good protagonist/antagonist conflict. Rian set the precedent for this as well that TROS followed.

It's kind of why she pales in comparison to Luke and Anakin since they actually have to grip with the ramifications of their power and its consequences while Rey doesn't have to do anything of the sort.

Given the lengths the Republic resorts to in the films, the distinction is entirely immaterial. Like, the clone army on its own in AOTC is already a massive red flag. I can't believe that I have to argue this with you when it should be incredibly clear. The nuance already existed. What makes governments corrupt and in decline also tends to make them pretty evil a lot of the time since that corruption transforms them into something far more sinister than how they began.

 

I think I remember Palpatine was given emergency powers and he made the call the use the army that was already there.

 

But she had'nt accepted it yet - she ended the first movie still intent on finding her actual family, rather then accepting the one she had found, which is what happens at the end of TLJ.

Johnson ended TLJ with Rey and Kylo firmly opposed to each other and on a collision course for a final confrontation. He did'nt undermine anything, he just enhanced the conflict by making Kylo a villian with more power, greater reach and nuance as a character and giving Rey experiences with him that makes her conflict with him more personal.

Yeah, it's almost like she's a totally different character, amiright?

Is this a "the Clone Army is a bunch of slaves" argument? Becuase it's not as far as we know - firstly slavery is illegal in the Republic and nobody ever brings up that the army voilates those laws* and secondly we have no reason to think that if a clone trooper went through offical channels and formally resigned his commission (as apposed to defecting like Slick or going AWOL like Cut Lawquane) they could'nt leave.

*in fact when Slick calls the clones slaves in TCW Rex and Cody get pissed off and Anakin - who was a slave - does'nt seem bothered by the assertation one bit, which he absolutly would have if the clones actually were slaves.

I live in America and I grew up in the years after 911, so I've seen, heard and dealt with things far, far worse then anything that the Republic does in the PT films, and yet despite that I don't live in an "evil" country. If the Republic's citizens think that their (by all indications) fairly englightned and progressive democratic goverment is "pretty evil" just becuase their democraticly elected leader (who remember can be removed from power at any point by a majority vote) was granted legal emergency powers through a legal voting process then maybe they should just pack up their bags and movie to Hutt Space or the CIS or just wait around until the Empire is formed.

Yes, the army was already present and "signed over" to the Republic, and not accepting it was'nt an option becuase the CIS was about to attack them first. The only oddity was that Sifo-Dyas had recruited it himself without any instruction, but that would'nt have raised any red flags since he was already known for being extreme and avocating the creation of a Republic Army.

 

San Tekka did'nt know the location of the map though. He knew that he had given it to Poe, which means he knew as much as the FO did at that point, but that's all - Poe does'nt put the map into BB-8 until after he parts ways with San Tekka.

"....san tekka didn't know the location of the map"......even though he just gave it to Poe........... wut?


He was focused on his interaction with her, not what she's holding; their have been plenty of times were I've gone head-to-head with somebody and, in the process of getting caught up in the moment, failed to take not of what they had in their hand or what they were wearing.

Then you and kylo have...uh.....that in common. It in no way proves that he isn't dumb. You merely acknowledge my point before putting yourself next to him. *shrugs*

He sent his entire squadron after one ship. They're all destroyed as a result and had it not been for rose, Finn may have destroyed the cannon through self sacrifice. Its pretty dumb to send a whole squadron of ships after one.

 

I often wonder how Snoke reacted on learning Kylo had killed Lor San - what a goldmine of information he must have had.

 

I wouldn't call Kylo stupid, but he is super impulsive which leads to him doing dumb things. If that makes sense.

 

He knew he had given it to Poe, but he had no knowledge of where it had gone after that. Poe knew, and the First Order had captured him, so at that point San Takka knew just as much as they did and is thus no longer of any use to them.

It proves he's about as dumb as the average Human. Oversights don't make peaple stupid.

Even if your right (logically I don't see how Finn ramming the weapon would have done anything other then kill him, since his speeder was much smaller and already disintergating rapidly before Rose rammed him - and Poe and Rose clearly did'nt think his actions would do any good, at any rate) what do Rose's actions have to do with Kylo?

How so? As I've said several times now the TIEs were not needed anywhere else and they were the only units present capable of engaging the Falcon after it fled, so the alternative is to just let that ship fly off unmolested (he also had the remains the Supremacy and the remnants of its fleet in orbit, so if through some miracle more enemy aircraft showed up he had plenty more fighters to call upon).

I mean, Tarkin and Vader send an entire squadron of ships agianst the Falcon in ANH and Vader sends an entire fleet agianst it in ESB, are they stupid? Becuase if Kylo is dumb because of sending those fighters after the Falcon, Vader must be an utter moron of unimaginable proportions for sending his whole fleet after the same ship.

Given that Snoke never said anything and Hux - who is quick to jump down Kylo's throat about all his failings, real or precieved - did'nt say anything either I doubt anyone cared; indeed as I've said a couple of times now for all we know he was ordered to kill the man.

 

I like how you always bring up TCW as if we're talking about it or as if I don't think it's colossally overrated in comparison to the material it was meant to replace. As for your assertion that the Republic isn't being incredibly unethical by breeding humans specifically bred to fight and die in war, well, I'm afraid you're just wrong. Also, the idea behind allowing them to leave kind of destroys the whole purpose of having bred them as an army, huh? That's the inherent moral problem with the clones. They want all the benefits of living and thinking warriors without things like biases or opinions. It's a grotesque concept and that's not without accident. It's probably why Lucas didn't spend so much time trying to blunt that by saying things like "Oh, they were allowed to leave, guys, it's OK."

No, he didn't. Her conflict with him was already pretty personal when she watched him kill one of the two people that treated her like a human being for the first time and brutally maim the other. Stop giving Rian credit he frankly does not deserve.

No, it's not that. The problem is that her central "conflict" is milquetoast, dull and generally doesn't challenge her in any way. She's pretty much a dull Light Side messiah from the get-go and none of the films after TFA do much to ameliorate that. In fact, they only double down on it and expect you to believe it's a profound storytelling choice that supposedly transcends the prior films. Accepting how special you are isn't a compelling character journey, especially given the way it was done here.

lmfao

 

You don't get to discard evidence just becuase you don't like the source.

That's not what I said, but even if it was doing an unethical thing does'nt automaticly make you evil.

Corruption aside the Republic is a democracy that is, by all apperances, pretty egalitarian and socially liberal. Doing one enethical thing hardly makes them "evil."

I don't see how. Anyway the point is we have no evidence that they can't just resign their commision - from what we're told we have no reason to think they can't and were repeatedly shown that the clones fight for the Republic becuase they want to, not becuase their forced.

Clones have plenty of biases and opinions of their own and the Republic/Jedi neither stop them from having them or discorage it. That's a major thing in Clone Wars is showing that such is the case.

She had no personal tie to him. At the point TLJ starts she has as much of relationship with him as Luke had with Vader at the start of ESB, and like ESB with Vader TLJ gave Rey insight into her enemy and a reason to sympathize with and pity him. IMO it's pretty boring when the hero and the villian simply hate each other and have no depth to their realtionship.

Why? Why should I be forced to not give credit were credit is due simply becuase you don't like the movie he made?

Cool.

She's still not the same character as Luke and Anakin, so saying "she pales in comparison" to them (which is opinion anyway, not a fact - I for one consider her far more enjoyable then Anakin pre-TCW) does'nt really mean anything, becuase why should it matter? It's not a competition and nobody set out making the ST with the goal of equaling or surpassing Luke and Anakin.

I don't remember the PT films showing the Republic conducting illegal surveillance on its citizens, holding peaple without trial under deplorable conditions that violate international law, luanching air strikes into neutral countries that resulted in civillian deaths, lying to start a war, ect.

I do remember then accepting an army from a non-aligned world in order to defend themselves from an imminant attack that some fans have asserted is a "slave army" despite A; having no evidence that it is and B; it being impossible for it to be one becuase slavery is illegal in the Republic.

 

We have reason to think they cannot when the entire point of breeding an army is to, you know...actually use the soldiers you breed for said army. No one creates an army this way under the pretense that they'll give those soldiers rights. What you're saying is entirely nonsensical because there is no reason that they would be allowed to go free as if they're citizens of the Republic serving in a military. They're not supposed to be a normal army and that is made clear on multiple occasions.

Yeah, you only had Republic officials orchestrating a conflict that served to facilitate more power falling into their own hands at the expense of the galaxy at large. Totally not an increasingly dubious organization. You're just completely wrong here, again.

Dude, pre-TCW Anakin is a better character than post-TCW Anakin by a significant margin.

I am disregarding TCW because it's a laughable half-measure when it comes to actually exploring the kind of consequences making something like the Republic's Grand Army would actually be. Especially when stuff like Traviss' RC novels and the Dark Horse Republic series did it far better and more honestly.

There's no depth to their relationship as it is. Especially when Kylo is more worthy of contempt with each passing film and those involved in writing them somehow expect you to believe he's better than Vader, which is so wrong, it confounds me how anyone could even remotely arrive to that conclusion.

 

So long as they meet whatever requirements* the Republic Military has for resignations I don't see why they would'nt be able to. The only two clones we see leave are a defector and a deserter and we have no reason to think actual resignations would not be accepted* - and if they were the clones could just appeal to the legal system and I don't imagine it would take the courts long to decide in their favor given how obviously unethical such a denial would be.

*for instance a pre-decided term of service; during the Vietnam War, for instance, draftees were required to serve for - if I recall correctly - 24 months. If that did'nt defeat the purpose of a having a drafted army I don't see how the clones being able to resign if they wished after a certian amount time would defeat the purpose of having a cloned army.

*in fact Rex says to Cut Lawquance in TCW that he "swore an oath" to the Republic, so seemingly their is a degree of choice in service to begin with; for instance Rex's point would'nt make much sense as a retort if the oath was forced upon the clones, and if that was the case Lawquane probably would have replied by pointing that out rather then by agreeing that Rex had a point.

Their only "not normal" in the sense that where they come from differs from a "regular" army, and I'd imagine the clones themselves would disagree with you if you said their origins were not normal - normal is relative.

Palpatine is one person and was doing what he was doing without the knowledge of the rest of the Republic, who would have stopped him had they known.

That's a matter of opinion, though it's definantly the first time I've seen someone make that argument.

That's still discarding evidence becuase you dislike the source.

Neither of which are canon anymore and, thus, having no bearing on this discussion.

Agree to disagree. I thought both their realtionship and Kylo and Rey as indivual characters were far more interesting (especially Kylo) at the end of TLJ then they were at the start of it.

Of course it's wrong, becuase that's not a thing that's ever presented by the films or expected of the audiance - in fact when Kylo is first introduced in TFA its expressly as a wannabe Vader who, in spite of his best attempts, pales in comparison.

 

The "oath" they swore is is empty pretense. Besides, if I recall correctly, I don't seem to remember the U.S. using an army composed of cloned humans specifically bred in vats for the purpose of combat. Again, your comparison is fundamentally flawed. The fact that we only ever see defectors or deserters is no accident. It's a clear indication of the reality for clones in the Grand Army.

 

Source?

For much of its history it used an army of conscripts, which at the end of the day is essentially what the clones are.

The reality, as far as were shown, is that they take a willing oath to serve, enjoy and take pride in that service, are encourged to express themselves as peaple and individuals and are never said to be forced to serve or denied any rights afford to non-clone Republic citizens.

 

Dude, it's called propaganda. Something that's much easier to use for a bunch of humans grown in vats specifically bred for fighting for your cause.

lmfao

Taking pride in a service doesn't make the circumstances of that service not messed-up. In many (if not most) wars, that's true. It's especially true for the clones. Now you're just being ridiculous.

 

It's not propaganda, it's something Rex himself says to Cut as a matter-of-fact that the latter does'nt deny. An actual oath was sworn by the individual clone troopers, and an oath implies choice - agian, if the oath was forced Rex's statement would'nt be worth much and Cut would have pointed that it was out rather then acknowledge Rex was right (not to mention it surely would have be brought up somewhere else).

verb
/kənˈskript/

1. enlist (someone) compulsorily, typically into the armed services.
   "they were conscripted into the army"

noun
/ˈkänˌskript/

1. a person enlisted compulsorily.

So yeah, their conscripts (note that I said "essentially" conscripts, anyway)

I never said the circomstances of their service was'nt messed up, I'm just denying the assertation that their slaves, which is'nt supported by evidence provided.

 

That's inane. Of course one of the clones would say that that it isn't propaganda and would not consider how his conception played a part in the ease in which he would take such an oath. The clones are not reliable voices in this.

Sure, you say you don't believe that but you actively deny one of the key fundamental reasons why it's messed-up. Alright.

 

I'm confused, are you saying that the oath is propaganda or are you agreeing that such an oath took place? Becuase it looks like your doing both.

The clones are not a reliable voice on things they themselves witnessed and did?

Fact - the Clone Army serves, and is part of, the Republic.
Fact - slavery is illegal in the Republic.
Fact - Anakin, who was a slave and has a strong bond with the clones, never voices any objection to the status of the armies, which he of all peaple certainly would if they were slaves.
Fact - neither the senators - including the ones known for their integrity and sense of justice like Padme, Bail and Mon Mothma - or the Republic's citizenery, to say nothing of the clones themselves (save Slick, who objections are dismissed with disgust by everyone) consider the Clone Troopers slaves and the issue is, as far as I can recall, never brought up*.
Fact - nobody in the Rebellion, while working alongside former clones, fighting to restore the Republic and liberate entire worlds like Kashyyyk and Ryloth from actual slave conditions, comments that the army's existence was an example of slavery

Ergo the clones are not slaves (or at the very least they don't met the requirments for what constitutes slavery by the standerds of the GFFA)

*in fact in the one episode of TCW were it 100 percent should be brought up if it is the case - when the senate is voting to bred more clones - the objection brought by Padme and Organa is based on financial, not ethical, concerns. It's not "maybe we should'nt breed more clones, that's slavery" it's "we don't have the money to do that! We're already in debt!"

 

I'm saying that it is propaganda that they are especially susceptible to since they were basically grown in vats and taught to fight in the Republic's service from their very conception. It's an illusion of choice, understand? You would have to be as naturally naive as the clones are to believe otherwise (which is what the Kaminoans sort of counted on when they bred a clone army).

Considering Anakin's relationship with Palpatine, who supports the measures taken to make this army (because he's not really a good person), he's not really a reliable voice of reason here. That's his blind spot. Sure, Anakin is a slave but he falls to the same rhetoric.

That's probably why TCW is such a joke concerning this matter (and many others) compared to stuff like Karen Traviss' RC novels.

 

Do you actually have any evidence that it's an "illusion of choice" or are you just stating any opinion? Becuase all the episode tells us is that an oath was sworn and it gives us no reason to think that oath was not geniune and that refusing to swear it would not be allowed - indeed if that was the case then why would'nt Cut have responded to Rex's point by stating as much, rather then agreeing? After all "freedom of choice" was the argument he was using when Rex brought up the oath.

Anakin is also friends with Obi-Wan and Bail Organa and married to Padme, none of whom have any issue with the status of the army and don't have the blind spot of Palpatine, nor do we have any reason to think Anakin being friends with Palpatine blinds him specificly to the issues of slavery (he definantly still objects to it, as shown in the Zygerria arc of TCW) especially when it would be concerning a group of beings he's devoloped a close bond with.

Or maybe it's becuase the makers of TCW simply had had different take on the situation then Traviss did?

Anyway, we're not discussing the quality of TCW relative to Traviss's books, we're discussing whether or not the clones are slaves in the current canon, a fact on which Legends has no bearing (and never really made up its mind on anyway); if the clones are slaves why is it never brought up as an issue, including by former slaves and peaple firmly opposed to the practice, and how would the army even exist within the Republic to begin with if slavery is illegal? Such a blatent violation of Republic law would be impossible to ingore, if only by the characters opposed to such things even *if* it were allowed to slide by the goverment.

 

No, they had a worse take on it than Traviss did. Probably because they looked at an army of what are essentially slaves and went "Gee, what if it wasn't so bad?" which fundamentally missed the entire point.

 

They eventually returned to "yes, they are considered property" - at least in the case of the Kaminoans - in Season 5.

 

Yeah, one of the walkbacks of the century.

 

Nice opinion.

Or they just disagree with you and Traviss on that being the point - and their not alone, since the films themselves never bring up the fact that the clones are slaves either and make it very clear that slavery is'nt a thing the Republic allows, so at any rate TCW is seemingly more in line with "the point" then she was.

By the Kaminoans, sure, but they can't be property in the eyes of the Republic itself, becuase Republic law forbids such a thing. That - and the fact that nobody who would have an issue with them being slaves ever (as far as I can recall) brings it up as a problem (including the vast majority of the clones themselves with the exception of Slick) - makes it seem pretty clear that, at the end of the day, the clones aren't slaves, at least according to the standards of the GFFA.

 

Yes, because no government has ever performed hypocritical policies that fundamentally betrayed its values for political expediency. Ever. You know, that thing the Republic is doing. By growing human beings in vats that they then press into service with an "oath". Nothing unethical here. The Republic may like to skirt the issue as much as they like but they are fundamentally using slave soldiers that they manufacture for the sole purpose of fighting their battles and as such, have little choice in their fates by design. The Kaminoans say so because it is the hard truth. They are solely bred for this purpose. You are wrong here and have only presented apologism because the idea of the prequels actually having moral ambiguity seems entirely unacceptable to you.

 

Do you have evidence that is what is happening? I'm going by established, canon lore, which (as far as I can recall) does not state that to be the case and gives no indication that the Republic is voilating or fluanting its own laws by allowing the clone army to exist.

If the clones were actually slaves as such a thing is classifed as under Republic law then it would have surely been brought up as an issue (and a major one at that), notably in the episodes of TCW that delete with slavery and the other ones were the senate debated ordering more clones. It was not, however, nor did any of the characters who would raise issue with such a thing ever protest the army's existence, so logically their not slaves. Is the army ethically questionable? Sure. Is it an army of slaves? No, not according to what were told and shown.

If slavery is illegal in the Republic and nobody ever brings up that the clone army's existence violates such laws, then obviously the clones are not slaves. It's as simple as that.

Property? Sure, that is said, but clearly not slaves as the GFFA classifies such a thing to be.

If it is then why is it never brought up as the huge issue that it obviously would be? Why does'nt the senate debate the ethical implications of using the army when the time comes to order more troops? Why is it not brought up in either ATOC or ROTS?

And then encouraged to express individuality and independece and allowed to retire peacefully and do whatever they wanted by the Empire after the war. And again whose to say that if a clone went through the offical channels to resign he would'nt be allowed to go off and find anouther purpose other then war?

Not to mention the fact that we see non-combatant clones, so clearly their not "solely" bred for war.

Oh, it's apologism? For what, exactly? Becuase I don't remember apologizing for anything.

I'm arguing based on logic and what the lore tells me, that's all