ST Kylo Ren/Adam Driver Discussion Thread

Vader didn't kill Padme - at least I remember that much from my one viewing of ROTS. If there's a pattern, it's love a Skywalker and die. And also, what's your point? And the Skywalker Han loves is Leia.

He's wrong. He doesn't have a hand in what Kylo became - except for the fact that he sat by like an idiot for six years while Kylo went to join the Space Fascists and became a murderer. But Kylo going to join the Space Fascists is on HIM. It's not on LUKE.

 

Padme died of a broken heart because Anakin became Vader and she lost the will to live. So he did kill her.

Luke stood over his nephew ready to kill him in his sleep: he contributed to ensuring his nephew had no hope, that Snoke is right about the Jedi.

 

Vader/Padme and Kylo/Han is the wrong comparison. Kylo/Han is a disgusting reversal of Vader/Luke. In the OT, father and son saved each other. It was beautiful. In the ST, the son senselessly murders the father for no good, no justifiable, no understandable, no forgivable reason. It's just ugly, and the redemption undeserved.

Leia was largely "killed" by Kylo the way Padme was killed by Vader, and Luke was "killed" by Kylo the way Obi-Wan was killed by Vader. Leia died trying to reach out and put an end to Kylo. Padme died doing basically the same thing, going to Mustafar to try to dissuade Anakin. Kylo killed Luke largely the same way Vader killed Obi-Wan, with Obi-Wan sacrificing himself and giving up his life once his task of distracting Vader was done. They're obviously intentional mirrors, just grossly incompetent and unoriginal.

 

So then by that comparison, Kylo killed Leia and Luke.

No hope? Seriously? He could have told Luke to go soak his head and gone home or on the road or anywhere but Snoke.

And, again, why did Luke do that? Kylo had already turned evil. Which he demonstrated by burning down the temple, killing his fellow students and joining the First Order. He had a choice and, to quote the Grail Knight, he chose poorly.

 

Luke did not create Kylo because he snuck into his room and almost killed him,

Ben was already a dark sider long before that night.

 

Blaming Luke for Kylo Ren is equivalent of blaming Mace Windu for Darth Vader. Trying to blame the single event instead of the entire path taken to the Dark Side.

 

Kylo burned down the temple and killed students because Luke tried to kill him. That is the sequence of events. Kylo trusts no one at that point.

Read my posts, I said “contributed to his fall, had a hand in it.”
Kylo fell because of
1) Himself, he made a choice
2) But Luke’s betrayal
3) Snoke’s grooming of him
lead him to that choice.

 

Luke sure did set him off, though, and obviously completely failed in his responsibility to his nephew. Unlike Mace, Luke absolutely betrayed Kylo. Unlike Mace, Luke was responsible for Kylo's training. Unlike Mace, Luke had a deep personal connection to Kylo, owed him much more, and failed him much harder. Mace was much more sympathetic than Luke, which is sad.

We know hardly anything about Kylo's path to darkness, but like the PT Jedi, we know Luke and Leia neglected Kylo to the predations of an evil sorcerer, and failed to counter his influence. Did a bang up job raising the kid.

 

So he could have left without burning down the temple or killing anyone. A doesn't have to lead to B in this case.

Maybe 3 leads to 1, but 2 does NOT because Luke clearly says that Kylo's heart was already turned. And after TROS, it isn't Snoke, it's Palps.

Yep. Thanks, "Larry's psyche" and "JJ's soul." A+ move there. The minute I read JJ prattling on about "fixing your parents' mistakes," I knew we were in trouble, but I didn't know it would be this bad.

Also, Kylo did such a great job turning evil, he killed the wrong parent. Han had nothing to do with Snoke doing anything to him. Then again, Kylo seems to have inherited nothing from his parents - brains, integrity, heart, soul, looks - so I guess it fits.

 

Luke’s “contribution” was not passing on his failures in his teaching. However none of his other students fell to the dark side did they? Nope just Ben.

Ben is fully to blame for his own fall. Luke did not create Kylo.

 

Just curious, why did you only watch ROTS once? I found it was better on rewatches.

 

Of course the outcome of a child is at least partially the responsibility of it's guardians. Otherwise, we wouldn't bother raising our kids.

 

I never got around to seeing any of the PT more than once, in the theater. I have the box set now and I should watch them again, I just haven't. I wasn't a PT fan. But it was that it didn't grab me, not like the ST, which offended me.

 

All choices are ripples in water, someone makes a choice it can make another create another ring, and yes they can choose differently, but when those you love abuse you or intend harm against you as Luke did to Kylo, it can lead a person in a certain path, yes they make the choice, but some choices are almost forced, if someone keeps harming your children over and over or something you love, you are prone towards certain actions. Emotion can make people do something horrible, and once they cross that threshold they sell themselves on the lie that they cannot go back, “its too late for me son.” (Vader, ROTJ).

 

Hyperbole. Passes for murderers? I was explaining the time frame. Actually one vision has Kylo with his knights arriving to slaughter the other students. So it is unclear when in timeline that happens not that I think of it. Either he killed many students that night uncle Luke betrayed him, or he came back with the Knights of Ren.

Kylo is 100% responsible for his choices. But Luke and Snoke are guilty too. Their actions gave him the excuse he needed to make bad choices.

 

Luke played a part, just as Palpatine played a part in tempting Anakin. You can be tempted to the dark. Yes you make the plung, but others tempting you and treating you in a way that feeds your self justification to make the plung are factors.

 

No, Kylo wanted an exuse, the actions done to him gave him his justification. People look for excuses. That’s my point.

Thinking back TFA Han does say, “there was too much Vader in him,” and Leia says she thought Luke could train him and change him. Which indicates Kylo had an innate darkness. That he already was falling before training with Luke.

 

Which isn't a motive or a goal for his actions.

 

If that’s your logic then Shmi is to blame for everything. Shmi created Vader and Kylo! What a horrible failure of a mother!

See? Your logic doesn’t hold up.

Ben made his OWN choices. No one else made him choose to be evil, He is only to blame for becoming Kylo and no one else.

Luke on the other hand is to blame for his own choices, including being a crap teacher and quitting once he realized that Ben murdered his students and was going to engulf the galaxy in evil.

This whole blaming everyone else in the galaxy for ripples instead of Ben is ridiculous.

 

It's pretty easy to imagine how Luke threatens Ben leads to Ben killing classmates. What if they took up lightsabers against him in defense of Luke? I don't buy it, but there it is.

 

Whilst I don't disagree with you, I think the whole thing is so vague and opaque (and not in a good sense) that's it's difficult to know. Was Ben already Kylo Ren by then, and in essence, he'd infiltrated the New Jedi order and was just awaiting the moment to strike? Or was Ben teetering on the edge of the darkside, and it was this confrontation/misunderstanding that sent him over? These questions are key in understanding Luke's part in it... and whilst this may have been covered in a novelisation, comic or Lego cartoon, that it isn't a major component of the ST, only speaks to the issues at the heart of these films... namely, the writers don't really know what the story is and who the characters are supposed to be. And if the writers don't know, how are we?