ST Kylo Ren and Rey in VIII and IX (See new guidelines on page 228)

Right there. Kylo is being convinced by Han, not the other way around. But he feels too far gone to fight it.

 

I figured Kylo was rationalising the situation.
Perhaps feeling like Han was giving him permission, or at least making it psychologically easier, for Kylo to kill Han.

It didn't feel like a simple deception. It was more mentally messed up than that.

 

Yes. i got the impression that he knows his father is right. But then he asked for his help, offered his saber up, then murdered his father, and then said "thank you". That is a plain as day deception. "like oh you thought i was surrendering my saber and asking for you to help me come away from the dark? lololol fooled you. thanks for "helping me dad" trololololololol.".

 

The other traits Kylo Ren has are not new in terms of villainy.

Being Young? Buddy Pine, the villain of The Incredibles, is significantly younger than our main hero and lead Mr. Incredible.

Related to Heroes? There are several cases where being related the heroes doesn't lead to redemption. Mordred was said to be either the nephew or illegitimate son of King Arthur, and all the legends said their relationship ended in tragedy with no redemption. Heck, Jacen Solo of Legends died as Darth Cadeus and isn't he supposed to be the character that Ben Solo is based upon?

Humorous moments? If you refer to his tantrums and destroying equipments, they highlight the fact that Kylo Ren is pathetic compared to the likes of Darth Vader. He's a villain in training. And there many instances where we have evil villains having humorous moments. Emperor Palpatine is quite the comedian in terms of gallows humor.

Hans' true nature wasn't revealed until the very end, and he did mention his backstory quite a few times, even during his confession. He wasn't lying to Anna that he was the unfavorite in his family. That's why his deception is well-hidden. It's partially based on the truth. Likewise, Kylo Ren's backstory has mentioned a few times, but it's never elaborated why Kylo Ren turned against his family. A few vague clues here and there, but the impression most got in the film was that Kylo Ren is obsessed with Darth Vader and his legacy and sees actual family as weak. That is not sympathetic for many people.

He revealed his face to humanize himself to Rey so he can get the crucial information from her easily. And he deceived his father into thinking that he will return to the light. It was even parodied on the Internet with Kylo Ren convincing Han Solo to walk on to a bullseye spot. Trying to portray Kylo Ren as a failed manipulator doesn't change the fact he's a manipulator.

You do realize what Kylo Ren has done before. And what he will attempt to do in the future. Him offering his hand is not portrayed as romantic by Star Wars standards. That is offering is the equivalent of Darth Vader offering his hand to Luke and asking him to join him so that they rule the galaxy as father and son.




Despite being heartwarming on Vader's part, it was portrayed as a bad thing.

 

LOL, is this actually happening right now? When the director/writer of the movie straight up references people asking him if Kylo was playing Han the whole time and he says "The truth is, I think Kylo Ren, in this moment, is actually being convinced to walk away from this" (i.e. "No, he wasn't playing with him")... you should just let it go.

It's okay to interpret something a little off. I'm sure others did too, but don't expect your interpretation to be carried forth as the intended one when the director has straight-up said it isn't.

 

here, i'll put it like this. This is how his emotion played to me in that scene. "i feel like i'm being torn apart" (truth) "i know what i have to do but i don't know if i can" (i have to kill you, but i'm not sure i can go through with this.) "will you help me" (time to take the test) *falsely presents his saber* *murder commences* "thank you" (i passed).

 

Yep. Kylo Ren is just going to get darker and darker. Anything positive he does toward Rey or Luke or Leia will be an act of deception. Anything anyone says to the contrary, such as the creators, is misdirection.

 

The most dangerous and effective form of deception are the ones embed in truth. Darth Sidious didn't really lied to Anakin. He deceived him by telling him the truth from a certain point of view.

Likewise, Vader's attempts to turn Luke to the Dark Side are genuine emotions from a father. That's why it hurts Luke so much. It was far too real for him to dismiss Vader as a liar even though he saw through Vader's attempt to convert him to the Dark Side.

 

And don't forget, TLJ is actually a cautionary tale warning young girls not to disobey daddy and run off with the bad boy (cousin)? next door! But don't worry, even if it happens daddy will still be there to cry with you after it's all over and said bad boy (cousin)? betrays you, with the bittersweet acknowledgement that you failed and daddy was right all along.
*Single tear falls down face*
*Epic mic drop*

 

You've seen the movie? You know exactly what Kylo Ren decides to do in the end? I mean even Rian Johnson doesn't know where Kylo's story will end up...so let's not pretend we know exactly what's going to happen. As RJ said, there's a lot going on the trailers do not reveal, context we're clearly missing...and that plus JJ's own choices will be extremely important in determining what happens in the next film[/quote]

 

When the bad boy is part of a criminal organization and has committed murder of his own father, it's not a bad moral to have. Simply put, Kylo Ren is not a heroic rebellious figure like Han Solo or Peter Pan. He's more akin to Lampick from Pinocchio at best.

 

I forget which thread it was, but people were talking about how folks love to intentionally misrepresent opposing view points as extreme and blanketed as a way to dismiss them without challenging their own view point.

 

How I saw it (which I believe is correct due to JJA comments) is that Han is convincing him and he holds the saber out to him but then he can't let go of it and as the sun disappears a decision is made. Up until then there was internal conflict between light and dark. When he says "thank you" though that's all dark. But then after regret and shock at what he has done set in.

The deception is that Kylo is sincere. He's sincerely considering Han's offer. He's sincerely conflicted. But he ends up choosing the dark again and overriding sentiment and conscience, as he has long done.

Kylo hasn't displayed any deception yet really, except for his terrible attempts to deceive Snoke, which center on trying to hide the light in him from Snoke. His father means nothing to him (*runs off to confess to helmet about the pull to the light*); no he doesn't feel compassion for that scavenger, an enemy of the Order!!! Etc.

A similar conflict occurred in the beginning when he was staring at FN-2187 IMO. Should he send that blaster bolt through him or let him go - back and forth - and the light won on that one.

 

And that's makes him so dangerous for any of protagonist to engage him. He's unpredictable and could backstab you when you least expect it. This is why having Rey being drawn to Kylo Ren is not romantic, but treacherous and a parent's worst nightmare. He has proven to himself to be just as untrustworthy as he is villainous (considering the crimes he committed and had allowed to happen). If Rey is not careful, she might find herself at the back end of a lightsaber or worse.

 

some of these have been discussed already. I'll always point out that the idea that kylo felt compassion for rey and finn does not line up with what occurred on screen. He saw finn, didn't kill him (the light won), but then the first thing he does is tell phasma (a ravenous wolf) about finn. I'm not gonna go into what he's done to rey as we've all discussed that countless times here. I could agree with him considering han's offer up until the point where he says "will you help me?".

 

Shadao

Again, taken together Kylo has a many qualities that could point to redemption.

JJ disagrees with you that Kylo deceived Han.

And my god, if my father offered me his hand like Kylo is there I would call protective services. That is how a man reaches his hand out to a woman. Watch a recency romance.

 

........what?

 

Mordred is said to be a young man related to King Arthur (our main hero) as either a nephew or son. That alone accounts for two of Kylo Ren's qualities that you have listed as signs of his "redemption." Add to the fact that nearly every villain in Star Wars has humorous moments as well as pathetic moments, I'm not really seeing your argument considering that Mordred died as a villain in King Arthur mythos (he's even said to have killed King Arthur himself).

And again, the most effective deceptions are the ones embed in the truth. Obi-Wan got away with his lies because he believed in them. Thus his words felt truthful even though they are not.

And beware of wolves. In this day and climate, a man who has ties with a terrorist organization offering his hand to woman would not be seen as a romantic gesture. It would be seen as a predator taking advantage over women, which will not fly in this political climate.

 

I don't think he told Phasma anything. In Finn's backstory Phasma knows Finn doesn't want to kill people. She was hoping he would start. And I thought in the novelization another trooper had noticed he hadn't fired and was asking him about his weapon. Phasma wanted it inspected to see if the weapon really was damaged or if Finn just wasn't using it.

It's after Finn escapes that Kylo reveals him. And part of the reason he's so angry about Finn is because he could have prevented all of this had he just not given into the light in that one moment. I also remember reading that originally the helmet confession scene was after letting Finn go. They moved it to being after the discussion about Han, which I'm glad of, but it's telling where they were going to place it originally.

I think that the bolded below is more the case:

Kylo's conflict makes him unpredictable and treacherous. According to JJA after Snoke detects his compassion for Rey + how Kylo just let the droid go, Snoke doesn't trust him. Neither side can really trust him because he's a mess. He is a traitor to all, and to himself.

Regarding Rey though, she *knows* this. She watched him kill Han. I don't think Rey is going to be suddenly completely trusting of Kylo. She knows he can't be trusted. She's not an idiot.

As for the rest of this it's not really factoring in how most romance cases are relying on Kylo returning to the light or going through some profound change. It hasn't happened obviously per the end of TFA. That's why there are two more movies.

 

Waist high, open hand, Palm up. That's an invitation to dance at the ball.

I can't post pics, on phone.

 

Like this one?

 

How are people still fighting against Rey and Kylo joining forces sincerely in this movie? It's happening. Get over it.

This is not some disgustingly sexist 18th century cautionary tale where Rey is a disobedient little girl who makes a mistake in trusting a bad, bad boy, gets betrayed and beaten down by said bad boy, and then gets scolded and chastised further by Luke or Finn. Good gosh...

On the contrary, this is Rey's coming-of-age journey, Rey's chance to forge her own identity by making her own decisions and choosing what to believe and who to trust for herself. Did Luke listen to Obi-Wan when he said Vader was "twisted and evil, more machine than man?" Nope! How about when Yoda told him the dark side forever dominate one's destiny? Haha! Again, nope! Obi-Wan and Yoda were both wrong. Luke defied them and reached out to his father in despite of their "sagely" advice. And guess what? Rey will ultimately choose her own path in much the same way. Her journey will be a bumpy one. She will be tested. She will be hurt (by Luke of all people, it seems), but she will emerge as the hero of her own story, a wise young woman who overcomes evil in a way that is unexpected but right.

 

one guy from the story group talked about that scene and he mentioned thats how phasma ninja'd behind finn and ordered him to submit his blaster. I'd interpreted the stare down totally different and admittedly, based on the false context that finn was force sensitive.

 

I've extended my hand out like that when helping my nephew at a playground. Pastors have extended their hands like that when its time to prey. There are plenty of situations where such a thing isn't even remotely meant as a romantic gesture. As you can see in a clip above, darth vader extended his hand to his son in the same manner. It implies "invitation" more than "romance".

 

Because there are whole checklists devoted to creating redeemable characters, just like likable protagonists or love interests. It isn't that the three random qualities I listed are the be all end all, just examples of some. They were posted a long long time ago on this board, even comparing Kylo to say Hux and showing how many more Kylo hit.

You are arguing JJ here not me.

Whut? SW is a fairy tale, not bible study. Not a PSA. I don't even know how you leapt to this.