ST Kylo Ren and Rey in VIII and IX (See new guidelines on page 228)

And what's wrong with that message? There are wolves in our society that will take advantage over others. You hear it in the news every day. And to don't be overconfident of what you choose to believe.

Luke disobey his elders on Dagobah in ESB to save his friends (a noble but foolish gesture) and was nearly maimed to death by Darth Vader. The only reason he survived was because Vader wants to deliver him the hard truth about his father. Anakin disobey his elders and followed a man who offered him an alternative path. His fate ends with him losing his soul to the devil.

Rey has the right to rebel against elders because the youth can offer new insights. But that doesn't mean they are always right or that the elders are always wrong. Anakin is proof of that.

moonjump05 The first rule of making a redeemable character... Don't make him cross the Moral Event Horizon. When that is crossed, being redeemable becomes unlikely without a heavy price to pay. Vader paid his redemption with his life. Kylo Ren crossed his by killing his own father just to prove himself to be evil.

And fairytales always have morals behind them. Remember the story of Little Red Riding Hood? Don't talk to strangers because they might be wolves trying to eat you.

 

Look, I think its ultra cool that you got into some super secret super advanced early screening of the last jedi, but I don't appreciate you spoiling the film. Not cool at all.

 

Yep, and we know what type of invitation (romantic, if deceptful) that was. It clearly tells you something of the intention of the man.

And since we know Kylo wears his heart on his sleeve...

 

Yeah I thought Phasma getting behind him was one of JJA's camera tricks. He does that a lot in his movies where it's showing one person and the the camera shoots over to someone else. I can't explain it but it's a style that has happened so many times from JJA that it gets tiresome. And I couldn't see how Phasma could suddenly be there. Anyway, I'm not sure what you mean? Are you saying that someone from the story group said Kylo told Phasma about Finn and that's how she appeared behind him???

My opinion is that at least on Jakku Kylo felt compassion for Finn. Whenever he has a tinge of compassion it's because he sees himself in someone. So my thought was he felt Finn's fear and distress through the Force and knew immediately he hadn't fired (disobeyed the order) but the compassion came because I suspect that Kylo has been in this position where he's trying to prove himself and be evil but he doesn't want to kill people, long ago. He knows how that feels. (Though that compassion would be warring with his rage at how Finn disobeyed orders.)

And I think that another reason he gets so angry about Finn is that Finn did the right thing and walked away and he listened to his conscience. Kylo on the other hand took the other road, and deep down he must know it was wrong. So there is some envy in this I think - envy of Finn.

 

This image is to show that a hand gesture like that is not necessarily genuine. It can be deceiving and treacherous. And many sadly fall for that deception.

And genuine can refer to many things other than romance. Vader offering his hand is that of father wanting his son to accept him and rule together side by side.

It should also be noted that both Kylo Ren and Hans have gloves on their hands. In some tropes, it can also be seen as deception (as Hans didn't remove one of them until he reveals his true colors).

 

• Arm lowered to weist height
• Slightly turned, vulnerable body position
• Palm up
• Hand open and flat

For comparison, the infamous Vader scene:

• Arm and hand raised
• Fingers clenching powerfully
• Guarded pose
• Delivering ultimatum

Kylo's also features the dreamy background full of slow-motion embers, Kylo's trembling form and hand and his desperate, vulnerable eyes.

Personally, I've begun to inch closer and closer to that shot being part of a vision Rey has on Ahch-To, but we shall see.

 

And thus that gesture Kylo Ren offers is the most dangerous of them. By being gentle and passive, he can invoke sympathy in appearance. But he was able to commit his worst crimes through by being gentle and passive. How did you think he lured Han Solo to his death?

 

Considering Kylo already offered to teach Rey, and that his face can't conceal a single emotion, it is likely legit. And that gesture between a man and woman has very distinct romantic undertones to it.

And Kylo can't be redeemed if he didn't do anything that had to begin with. Killing Han is that point, that you consider it a moral event horizon is superfluous if the creators don't. And they don't, if delving into Kylo even afterward is anything to go by.

Fairy tales are symbolic, not literal PSA about how drugs are bad. Expecting real world rules to apply is gonna be bad for you.

Edit: lol, Kylo 'lured' Han to his death.

 

Yeah but Kylo's face betrays his every feeling (this is one of the reasons he wore the helmet all the time). So he's not acting feelings he doesn't feel. It's not a deception. It's actually reaching out and wanting Rey to come with him, wanting an ally, or perhaps even to steal from Birkendoc , a lifeline.

It's kind of hinted at IMO in the article about Rey and Kylo. He hasn't had many people around on his level, an equal in the Force. And I think the good part of him wants a friend.

TFA didn't really show Kylo deliberately acting out feelings he doesn't feel. Every feeling he shows is something he can't keep from his face or demeanor. He's trying to be cold and emotionless, but that facade breaks here and there.

Maybe where I might disagree with you is that these are deliberate acts trying to invoke sympathy. I don't think Kylo is trying to get anyone's sympathy. He doesn't have a sad puppy act he pulls out to dupe people IMO. It's more that people see the sad puppy and feel sympathetic (or in Snoke's case, angry). But that part of him IMO is coming from the light, when Kylo is on the dark side. There's more light in him than in Vader, for instance so it's more visible. And it's more dangerous because people can see the light and the sincerity and think they can pull him back. I personally don't think that will be Rey's approach. I think that Kylo would have to prove himself a lot for Rey to be convinced. She's seen inside his head even.

 

Offering to teach can also refer to dominating any potential rivals. By being their master, you can assure that they'll never be your equal. And to say gesture is romantic is to ignore all the other warning signs with Kylo Ren that makes him treacherous. He lured his father into a trap invoking sympathy and confusion. It might be genuine but it did not last long. There is no telling if he was offering his gesture as a genuine alliance... or to kill Rey when she drops her guard.

And try not to whitewash Kylo Ren's crimes. Killing your own father is one of the unforgivable crimes for the general audience unless said-father is an evil monster trying to kill his own offsprings.

And modern Fairy Tales invoke real morals that people can use for real life. Like be kind to others and you will be rewarded handsomely in return. Or that Gold is not as valuable as living a good life. Star Wars invokes real life. The rise of the Empire refers to Nazi Germany. JJ Abrams admits that the First Order is the equivalent of the Nazi remnants escaping to Argentina. Not to mention the First Order has been compared to ISIL and North Korea, two very real and dangerous things in the real world.

Fiction reflects our reality. And if it sends a bad message, it will suffer backlash from the audience and critics alike.

 

RJ said that delving into Kylo just to find out he is evil and needs to die is a waste. That is the story you are peddling that RJ rejects- that evil facist Kylo commited the greatest sin(????) and needs to die.

It is one thing to draw symbolism from real life, quite another to say that Kylo/FO literally embodies those evils and we must see them smited on-screen.

The creators are not treating SW the way you think.

 

Are you saying kylo has done nothing that would warrant him needing redemption?

 

What he means is that Kylo Ren should not be a one-dimensional villain. He should be somewhat understandable and relatable, but that does not excuse his crimes.

Prince Hans was made into a more complex character in the novel Frozen Heart. It makes him more than just a hidden villain with evil intentions. He's a tragic figure by his own right. He has genuine good qualities within him and he is certainly better than the rest of his abusive family. He's complex and relatable just as his creators said he was. But they did not use that to excuse his crimes. They make it clear that his actions are his own doing and he deserves punishment. But it doesn't mean we can't feel sorry for his fate or dread what's going to happen to him given how worse his family is.

And that was a fairy tale. By Disney no less. Who owns Lucasfilm.

I've been following Star Wars for a very long time. And I'm a fan of many franchises and fandoms. Believe me, I've seen a plenty of popular ships go down in flames such as Zutara and Makorra, even though it was obvious where the real outcomes are going to be based on the clues.

 

moonjump05

Everything Adam and RJ have told us about Kylo is true, he's conflicted, he's a religious fanatic, He believes he's doing the right thing, he's petty....he's a layered character. I can't say how it will end for him as even RJ doesn't know that, and though he has an opinion on how it should end...there's no guarantee that JJ will take it in that direction. In fact we're not even sure how his story will end in TLJ. He and Rey may be allies in their desire to end Snoke...but that may be where the alliance crumbles. It's easy to come together and defeat a greater threat...but that doesn't mean people will continue to work together once that danger has passed.

I have to disagree, as exploring WHY Kylo killed his own father is actually a fascinating subject. What makes a man who was raised in a 'Good' Home decide to run his own father through with a blade even when said father is offering him absolution and a return to family? Even if Kylo is damned it's still a question worth exploring and that exploration is NOT a sign that Kylo has not crossed a line even in the creators eyes....I'd argue the opposite.

Star Trek put out a comic series after the 2009 movie that delved into Nero, showing what drove him to become the villain we saw in that film...and it was fascinating and tragic. Yet Nero still ends up being torn apart in a blackhole. Same goes for Star Trek Beyond. The primary villain had a sympathetic backstory...yet his own choices damned him. The same could easily apply here.

 

I actually haven't watched Frozen. Perhaps I will since it's mentioned a lot on the forum. But I think that Hans and Kylo (just from the one image of Hans) have very different personalities. Hans is striking me as a charming and charismatic sort who engages in deliberate deception and emotional manipulation, who is a master of acting a way he completely isn't - a BS artist. (I'm just guessing.)

 

yeah i haven't seen frozen either. I still have to finish watching Inside (the feels) and Moana.

 

Kylo used the Force in order to freeze Poe and Rey who were firing upon him with blasters; why the hell would he need to use deception to "lure" a weaponless non-FS old man when distance is clearly a non-issue for him?

I haven't watched Frozen either and I feel like I have to just so I can counter the arguments based on that movie, heh.

 

By the Doylist terms, to deceive the audience into thinking that Kylo Ren will be redeemed there, emulating Luke's appeal to Darth Vader, then subvert our expectations by killing Han Solo.

 

I don't know. He killed LST in the beginning - foreshadowing. And if Kylo came back to the light in the first movie there is no story.

 

I've brought up Frozen all this time and some say they still haven't seen it.


(Moana is a great movie too)

 

As RJ said, Killing your father is not ideal, it's a subject worth exploring...and it was a line even Vader never crossed intentionally. So if Vader, full of rage and anger, pulled back from killing the wife who betrayed him...why did Kylo Ren, who clearly still loved his father and was clearly in no danger from him...run the man through? It's a fascinating question and one worth exploring no matter where Kylo ends up in the end.

 

Yeah. Then after that, Snoke totally trusts Kylo to lead FO forces on Crait. GMAB.

 

It's possible Kylo Ren supplants Snoke after that fight....then again...Kylo could fight the Guards earlier in the film. If Snoke really is furious with him about his weakness it's not hard to see him ordering the guards to attack Kylo to see if he's worth training anymore...or to teach him a lesson.

 

I think it's part of Kylo's training. Unless they don't care about continuity, Kylo is supposed to continue his training as well (as Rey goes to Luke) and we have the scene of Kylo picking his lightsaber off the floor.

 

As someone who has seen Frozen many, many times (because my young niece is over here after school four days a week) I can assure you that your assessment of Hans is right on target. He's initially presented as a Prince Charming figure, but he's actually just using the heroine to try and get her sister's throne. He's the Anti-Kylo.