ST Kylo Ren's Future/Fate. Death/Redemption/Other?

Leia is Ben's mother, and as a mother myself, I can't imagine wanting my own child dead, no matter what they'd done.

General Organa has always been pragmatic and able to make ruthless decisions, but her plea to Han to "Bring our son home" was heartfelt. I guess I'm just not the kind of person who wants to see her put her own son down like a rabid dog. Leia does what has to be done, but she's not cold-hearted.

 

Fine, but my gripe was the fact that you started your post with the idea that Vader really didn't do anything that bad. I have no quote to know who you were responding to, so I took what I saw there. You're right, they didn't feel much or any sympathy for Vader, even in VI some still felt that he did far to much to be given a death leads to redemption arc. Given the fact that Anakin is Vader and Vader is Anakin we need to take both sets of movies into consideration.

PM -Anakin is good, worst thing he does is probably beat another kid up for being a jerk.
AoTC -outright murders a whole village with men women and children, and he tells this to Padme, while he's still on the good guys side.
TCW -I don't know what he all did there as I haven't seen it all, but he did want to compel Bane again.
RoTS -Dooku's murder, murder of the younglings, near death of Padme, there would be a list here.
ANH -Owen and Beru's death, passive about Alderaan, Leia's torture, killing of all the X-wing members death of Obi wan.
ESB -Han tortured and frozen, chops off Luke's hand, I think there's more I just can't think of them.
RotJ -Attack on Endor, still plans to hand over his son to Palpatine, only changes it when Luke is in danger.

Han lived only because Leia, Luke, Lando and Chewie came up with a plan to save him. If not for that he would have died. The longer you stay in that the more likely you wouldn't live. No but what it appears via your post is that you're saying that Vader is less of a threat and bad guy as compared to Kylo Ren. Leia had to make peace with her father killing her adoptive family and her whole world. She managed to do that by RoTJ, Luke was even talking to her about that. Han's death, while painful, isn't the end for her. She wouldn't let that get in the way of her reaching her son. You don't think Kylo will feel the guilt of what he's done?

So because Luke didn't see his Uncle and Aunt it doesn't make it as devastating? Especially since, you know, they fought the night before. Vader killed Obi-wan, was complicite in the destruction of Aldaraan. How should Luke find peace with Vader after that either? Yes that's always going to be there, for both of them. But would Han really want her to feel bitter towards her son? I think not.

 

1) Well, what's on screen is very important : image carry more weight than words. So, if you want the audience to accept your Villain's redemption, then you'd better not show too much of his darkest moments. Since they did the exact opposite in TFA, Kylo's trajectory is pretty easy to determine...

2) the last time Leia tried to convinced someone his son was still redeemable, it caused her husband's life : not sure she'll make the same mistake twice... So, while she may try something on her own, i'm pretty sure she won't risk anyone else's life for Kylo.
Comparing "Ben' ' actions to Lando's is laughable : Lando was under duress, and had the lives of all Cloudcity inhabitants in the balance. Even then, Han survived, and Lando helped recovering him. Kylo murdered Han in cold-blood for very selfish reasons.

Now, if her son renonced his name & legacy, and viciously murdered her dear husband,
if he is threatening to cause countless deaths,
if he is about to destroy everything she built, everything she fought for, everything for which her family, friends & whole planet died for,
if he became the very evil she despised and fought against all her life...
... then, does she still consider him her son ?

3) Vader getting a mercyful ending wouldn't have been accepted by everyone (i know i wouldn't), and JJ made sure Kylo would appear more hateful than him...

 

Darkspellmaster ~ well I'm pretty sure the post you quoted of mine had quoted the post I responded to, which literally talked about not feeling sympathy for Vader until VI. I'm not going to start analyzing Vader's conduct in the greater canon because it was not my point. After the PT, quite frankly my opinion on Vader's redemption changed. The youngling scene was disturbing. Now I'm happy to see canon sources show Luke learning about things like Vader force choking pregnant Padme and feeling disgust.

Vader didn't kill uncle Owen and aunt beru. It's not the same as seeing Kylo Ren specifically slaughter captured villagers. We don't know if Vader was even aware of those murders. I never had the impression that he knew. I figured it was stormtrooper policy to destroy crap as they look for rebel targets.

I don't think Leia would have been fine with Vader. I specifically said Luke. I loved EU Leia specifically because she wasn't gung ho on forgiveness the way her brother was. Leia had no reason to forgive Vader.

I never said Leia would want him dead. I said Leia would always love him and would likely forgive him, but wouldn't be able to find peace. I say that as a mother as well.

 

I would like to take this time to bring up the argument others have used. But this isn't reality.....it's fiction.

 

Kylo's done too much reprehensible things both on-screen and off for him to be redeemed in any other way than a Vader self-sacrifice. You can't have the mass-murdering war criminal just decide he's good now and happily join up with the gang free of consequence. He has to earn his redemption if it's coming. And to be honest I think Kylo will stay true to the dark side. He's already kind of a subversion of PT Anakin in that he's a dark sider tempted by the light so I think they'll follow through with Kylo committing to the Dark side.

 

On the idea that both do horrible things we can agree. Actually for me it's actually worse what Vader did. Ben kills Han, but's it's quick. One hit and he's gone, horrible as it is, same as Lor's death. The difference is that Obi wan was the one hope that Leia had at the time, he was the only thing she had that could help the resistance, his death, on top of the death of Aldaraan meant that they only had their own men and Luke to rely on. So to me it was a far deeper death for the OT because Vader also tortured her on top of everything else, killing her men, killing her family and people, and then killing Obi-wan.

I wasn't trying to mock you, I was actually surprised that you would say what you said. Okay so why did you start out with the idea that what Vader did wasn't as bad as what Kylo did? Here's the thing, the rebellion may not have let him walk but could they have used someone like him on their side that could help to have instilled a change in the Empire, absolutely because people in the Empire looked up to Vader.

 

Excuse me while I laugh myself to death over that one!

This whole thread, and others like it, is full of why Kylo shouldn't get redeemed because real life crimes and real world expectations of justice/punishment.

I know what's real and what isn't, but even in the movies, mothers have feelings!

 

Out of anger and revenge....and he regretted it afterwards, questioning his own actions.

PADMÉ: Annie, what's wrong?

ANAKIN: I... I killed them. I killed them all. They're
dead, every single one of them...

ANAKIN focuses on her like someone returning from far away.

ANAKIN: Not just the men, but the women and the children
too. They're like animals, and I slaughtered them like
animals... I hate them!

There is silence for a moment, then ANAKIN breaks down,
sobbing. PADMÉ takes him into her arms.

ANAKIN: Why do I hate them? I didn't... I couldn't... I
couldn't control myself. I... I don't want to hate them...
But I just can't forgive them.

PADMÉ: To be angry is to be human.

ANAKIN: To control your anger is to be a Jedi.

PADMÉ: Ssshhh... you're human.

ANAKIN: No, I'm a Jedi. I know I'm better than this. I'm
sorry, I'm so sorry!

PADMÉ: You're like everyone else...

PADMÉ rocks him, and ANAKIN weeps.

Yes, but he still had to be coaxed by Palpatine to do so....he had no intention of doing so prior to Palpatine's words.

PALPATINE: Good, Anakin, good. I knew you could do it. Kill him. Kill him now!

ANAKIN: I shouldn't . . .

PALPATINE: Do it!!

ANAKIN cuts off COUNT DOOKU's head. A huge EXPLOSION somewhere deep in the ship rattles everything.

ANAKIN: ... I couldn't stop myself.

PALPATINE: You did well, Anakin. He was too dangerous to be kept alive.

ANAKIN drops COUNT DOOKU's lightsaber, moving to PALPATINE.

ANAKIN: Yes, but he was an unarmed prisoner.


This isn't to say that what Anakin did wasn't wrong....but he is still slowly being turned towards the Dark Side in this scene, so he still has reservations about these acts. It isn't until he becomes convinced by Palpatine that the Dark Side is the only way to save Padme that he actually chooses to commit greater attrocities, such as killing the younglings...but even then, it's because he's been convinced by Palps that allowing any Jedi to survive will prevent him from being strong enough in the Dark Side to save Padme.

 

Kylo Ren will indeed be redeemed.
Absolutely.

Photographic proof -






Bless his little heart.....no matter how small it might have shrunken under Snoke's despicable influence.

 

Like I said, for Leia, I don't think Vader was forgivable. In terms of Leia, I consider him irredeemable.

In the OT, before the PT, by the time we got to RotJ, Vader hadn't done as bad of things as Kylo. Vader had to be forgiven for playing his part in furthering the Emperor's agenda. Other than that, he killed underlings. The only personal murder we saw was Obi, and it was totally nullified to the audience. Obi did it intentionally to motivate Luke.

Taken on the whole, I don't think Vader is worse. Kylo Ren is younger, and yet his body count rivals Vader's.

It's an interesting idea that the rebels could have used Vader. But they would have had to imprison him to do that. It's not like they could have trusted him.

 

One can achieve a personal redemption, while being held accountable for their crimes by society. They do not need to be mutually exclusive.

In the case of Vader, had he lived, he would have rightly gone to jail for life, without parole, for his contribution to the extermination of billions of people. But that doesn't mean he couldn't have gone some way of moving his soul towards redemption with his action against the Emperor, and in defense of Luke.

 

I'm interested in where people think the movies are going with this character based on what we know from VII and other sources. He is no ordinary villain and I expect lots of surprises in the next two movies. We have been surprised by the character already.

In a comic con panel Adam Driver talked about how he and JJ and company didn't talk about his character being evil, but being someone who thought what they were doing was "right." He said they talked about the difference between being bad and being right.

 

Kylo Ren himself said "it's too late" to save him. Are you going to believe that crazy kid? --I saw this joke somewhere ("proof" of redemption)

 

Ever seen Hellboy the Golden Army? The Prince was the antagonist of that Film, but he had a point and did love his father....he still killed him thus earning the title of villain but he did feel sorrow over it. Kylo Ren could become a monster who deeply regrets every death he causes....but does it anyways because in his mind it's the right thing to do.

The comic Books have Doctor Doom, a man who craves power and desires to rule because he honestly believes he is the best person to guide humanity through the dangers the universe will throw at them.

Leto II ruled his empire with an iron fist, spreading terror and fear throughout humanity for centuries....all in an effort to break humanity from it's complacency and force it to move beyond it's current limitations.

These are people, not one dimensional cackling villains, that choose to do evil because they believed it the best option available to accomplish their goals, which could seem noble at first....until you were up to your knees in the red cost.

That's where I see Kylo Ren going.

 

AhsokaSolo, I do understand where you're coming from. And I do think that Leia is a lot more staunch then say Luke, but I don't think she's that cold or cruel. You may not see him as redeemable, but Leia may. Bear in mind, she forgave Lando for him betraying and allowing Han to be captured by Bobba Fett, so what's to say she can't forgive her son. I'm pretty sure she probably felt his reaction to his father's death. I think by the time ROTJ came out Vader had done more things that could be seen as pretty bad, if not worse. I'm not sure why you say he didn't do as bad as Ben, Ben's total of transgressions on screen for TFA including not saying no to Hosin being blown up is a total of 8. Vader in ANH has the same total of transgressions 8. Yes it was to motivate Luke but he still killed Obi-wan and to anyone who had just saw that one movie before watching the others, it would not have been nullified, at all. I know people who went to see it when it first came out, and they pretty much told me that Obi-wan's death was a shock and made them angry at Vader and they wanted him to pay for that. The actual body count in film:

Kylo: 2 by his own hand, the Village and not saying no to the blowing up of the Senate

Vader: 4 by his own hand (counting Biggs and the Red lead), Ship full of people, blowing up Alderaan.

They could have probably used him ala how Thor used Loki, except that given his turn to the light Anakin wouldn't have been like Loki. He probably would have helped and more then likely would have, at least, worked to get forgiven by his family.

 

Let's not forget the grandfather in Game of Thrones who probably knew about the poisoning of his own grandson who pretty much became a monster that did need to be put down. He himself is pretty darn bad, but he allowed the death to happen and his younger son to take the fall over his new granddaughter in laws grandmother because he knew that if she was caught it would break the alliance that they need for money. He felt bad for his grandson's death, but he knew that it needed to happen to push the kingdom forward.

 

I like that idea. I can see it going there. Though I don't see him having the same motives as Doctor Doom. It seems like Kylo Ren loves power, but not necessarily ruling? He loves to show off with the force, but he didn't seem bossy whenever he gave anyone orders. He seemed very wrapped up in himself. Hux definitely seems to love ruling over people more than Ren, in my opinion.

And I don't know if Ren trusts his own wisdom. he said the supreme leader was wise and asked for his guidance.

I actually am not really sure what Kylo Ren's motives for evil are. I hope we learn a little bit in Bloodline.

 

The difference is that Nuada (that was his name btw) had a more sympathetic/understandable cause and motivation for doing what he was doing. His methods were problematic, but he was more like Magneto than anything else (the version of Magneto with the understandable motives, but wrong methods that is). He was desperate to save his people from extinction, and was doing what he felt like he had to in order to accomplish that.

Kylo, his motives are wanting to be a DDAAARRRKKK and powerful as grandpa Vader was it seems. That's a very different matter.

And personally, I DO think that there comes a point when you done too much evil, and too horrific of evil, over too long a period of time, to find ANY level of "redemption." Sorry, you had your shot, and you chose to keep doing it over and over and over and over again for YEARS. Well now, you don't get to just say "here's my good deed, now I'm redeemed."

And as for the whole "who's worse, Vader or Kylo," well for the audience, it's Kylo. He did some of the same evil crap that Vader did (ordering massacres, torturing people, complicit in genocide, etc), AND he killed Han Solo. And yes, for a lot of the GA, that makes all the difference. Han was a beloved character whom the audience has had an emotional connection to for almost FORTY YEARS over four films, so his being killed is going is going to be more of a "gutshot" to them than a bunch of people that we've never met before/have no reason to really care about. And Obi Wan, by contrast, was a guy that we'd known for like forty minutes tops, so there's not even the same level of emotional connection there.

 

As it stands, I agree, but I am willing to admit Kylo Ren may be some goal beyond attaining power for power sake. What I fear....is that the generation born after the tyranny of the Empire sees that government in a more favorable light....especially if the current Republic became mired in the type of stupidity that lead to the downfall of the old Republic.

 

speaking for the GA are we? thats a pretty big assumption. most the GA believe Vader to be the ultimate bad, only made worse, yet more tragic by Anakin's actions from the PT (which believe it or not, the majority of the GA have seen, it is SW ya know). in one movie we've spent with Kylo, hes killed 2 people, one his father (who yes, the GA would love). people arent stupid though and realise that at least one of the OT characters were going to kick it AND there needed to be a reason to despise Kylo. the thing is, there isnt much of an emotional connection built up with TFA between Ben Solo and Han Solo (although the actual scene was emotional). We spent the OT with Luke and Vader building an emotional connection to their actions and then later, bond. thats the reason the payoff was huge for Vader to be redeemed. something equally as contrived/planned could be in the midst for Kylo, and would that mean the writers/decision to do it would be wrong? no. like the Vader one, its down to execution, so its not going to be up to us to decide whether or not Kylo can be redeemed at this stage, its simply way too premature.

i agree on the "theres a point when you done too much evil"etc. that is something that, arguably, both characters have demonstrated though, Vader more so due to more time seen actually committing atrocities. Kylo will have more time, and i bet in VIII there will be some despicable acts shown before us. this does not however, rule him out of being redeemed. Vader is the perfect example of this, in the context of just the OT AND the context of the overall Saga. we just have to see what the story group and directors have for us.

as for Kylo's motives, you really can't attempt to know what his motives are. you may think they are to be DAARRKKK and Vader like, but theres more to him then that. in fact, its already been hinted at. we just don't know the whole of it quite yet. i personally believe theres more to our primary villain than being a Vader clone and bad for bads sake. we just need to see more, to have a fully rounded valid opinion on these topics.

 

to the OP, its waaaaayyy to early to ask that question.. we still have two more episodes left, more for the writers to shape the characters, themes etc and then we can anticipate what theyll go with. if Vader can be redeemed from the canon materials, then Kylo surely can at this point too, but theres more to come and that will no doubt impact hugely on the this question.

 

Well I flat out said that Leia could forgive him. I don't know what you're arguing against. What I said is she couldn't find a peaceful HEA with him.

I disagree that Vader killing random underlings is comparable to Kylo Ren's murders of innocent people close to him, so your tally system doesn't mean much to me. Nothing Vader did in the OT compares to Kylo's patricide. By the time of Vader's redemption, the Obi killing (which is closest but still leagues away) was 100% nullified. Vader didn't kill Obi. Obi let Vader strike him on purpose and then continued living more powerful than Vader could possibly imagine.

I dispute your Kylo count because you talk about "the senate," while Vader gets Alderaan. A more accurate comparison is the entire Hosnian system, multiple worlds with almost certainly billions more people than Alderaan. I also disagree with your count essentially equating Han Solo's murder at the hands of his son with Vader killing a random screw up general of the empire. I don't think there's a single viewer that equates the emotional impact of those murders.

 

Vader and Kylo Ren are both equal as baddies. I never had sympathy for either one. They're cool villains, yes, but they aren't in the story for us to cheer for.
The TFA novelization gives us a bit about Kylo Ren's motive,
Looking out a space, Kylo Ren says, “Look at it, Lieutenant. So much beauty among so much turmoil. In a way, we are but an infinitely smaller reflection of the same conflict. It is the task of the First Order to remove the disorder from our own existence, so that civilization may be returned to the stability that promotes progress. A stability that existed under the Empire, was reduced to anarchy by the Rebellion, was inherited in turn by the so-called Republic, and will be restored by us. Future historians will look upon this as the time when a strong hand brought the rule of law back to civilization."

Ren reveals his view on politicians when belittling a lieutenant of the First Order.


Ren sneered softly. “You equivocate like a senator.”


Leia was a Rebellion leader and a Republic senator. I wouldn't bet too much money on the belief that he thinks anymore of his mother than he did of his father.

Speaking of Leia, the First Order was powering up their super weapon to destroy Leia and her Resistance Base. If Han and Chewie hadn't set their explosives then Leia would be dead. What was her loving son doing to save her? Nothing. He was busy hunting down his father at that time. Leia deserves a much better offspring and a substitute may have to do for her, and she has three prefect candidates in Rey, Finn, and Poe.

Back to Han, if Kylo Ren felt that he 'had' to kill Han but he didn't want to, then why didn't he do it quickly and painlessly? He could have stabbed Han right through the heart or beheaded him. Instead he took his time while he stared straight into his father's eyes that were filled with shock and pain. We could hear Han's ragged breathes, and then he shoved his lightsaber further in inflicting more pain on Han even though he was already mortally wounded. Nice kid, huh.

As I said before and I haven't changed my mind, I really don't care what happens to Kylo Ren as long as he doesn't end up with a happy ever after ending. Our favorite heroes from the OT didn't get one because of him, so I'll be darned if I'll cheer for one for him.

 

That is a good quote from the novelization. I wonder why he thinks that way? It sounds like it could also be First Order brainwashing. Though I wonder if the state of the republic, which leia also disapproved of at some point, was what bothered him? The republic became very corrupt.

I really want to know more about his relationship with his mom! in the novel didn't he say no I can get the map from the girl and that will be the end of it when hux and Snoke talked about blowing up the resistance? He may not have been totally on board with it. He wasn't on starkiller when it blew up the Hosnian system and the shot of him watching it could be interptred in many ways. I was also bothered that he would be more concerned about killing his father than his mother. This really needs clarification I think and I hope we get it.

Interesting point about how he killed Han! it was rather vicious to shove it deeper into his chest. However, perhaps the method and extra shove were for dramatic affect? it certainly felt more intimate, shocking, and heart wrenching than a quick beheading. If he quickly beheaded Han I don't know if I could even believe he felt much for Han at all...

I agree about the happy ending. I don't think there will be one for him. not completely. Especially if more triologies are to come and he is in them, I'm pretty dang sure he won't have a happy ending.