Light & Dark: Force powers.

Amen! A force user is an individual who can manipulate the Force to do his biding.
(even in deep philosophical sense one can be so attuned with the Force to do ITS biding, but then again who can be so arrogant to state that he has mastered Force's will?)
Jedi is just a name of an order that was found to control Force users and keep them in short leash so they will use their powers in generally good way. "light"
Sith is an order who believes that the Force is the mean to achieve your goals. "dark"
Both orders can be grey and there is a HUGE field for a Force user to stand between those orders too.

 

I've been reading up on the Force for an assignment over at the Jedi Trials, and the force choke and lighting isn't exclusively a dark-side power. Its part of the Unifying Force which from memory I think Yoda believes in. I'm pretty sure thats right. If not feel free to correct me.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_Powers

 

I tend to follow the thought that most force abilities aren't really light or dark, but it depends on how they are used. Since the Jedi are good guys who don't use the force as a direct weapon to attack, they don't use the abilities that are considered to be dark side abilities. The Sith don't have any sort of restrictions, so they will use whatever abilities they want to do whatever they choose to do with them.

As far as the EU goes, the Jedi(Luke's order) went from following the OJO ways of force use, to pretty much the Potentium view of the force, and back to the standard OJO way of force usage iirc.. One chose to follow his own path of force mastery and now he(with some help) is on his way to being a Sith..

 

If more of the Judi used "Dark Powers" (like it is so un reasonable to blast a guy who is trying to kill you (), they would not have fallen so easily.

 

Funny, but that's how so many Jedi became Sith and Dark Jedi in the eu. They kept playing with fire and got burned, in some cases literally. A Jedi does not abuse the Force the way a Sith does. To use lightning is to use your anger and hate, forbidden by the Jedi. Look at the films, look at the books, look at the comics, look at the games. They do not lie. The only reason so many Jedi use Force powers of all types, lies with the video games. In order to make the games interesting, they do this. It also allows them to make the Jedi protagonist capable of turning to the dark side, for a dark side ending.

 

hehe too true!

I don't think its exclusive either way...its more like a morality thing. THe jedi CHOOSE to use certain powers or not as dictated by what they feel is right and what they believe in. However, I was always a bit conflicted about the whole jedi mind trick thing...its a bit invasive to manipulate the brain patterns of someone.

I remember Yoda in the OT telling Luke that the future is always in motion, and not to put too much faith in Force dreams/preminitions. He was right...look what it did to Anakin? And the Emperor?? That's a choice the JEdi make- to not take too much from Force dreams.

 

Why is lightning evil or dark? Because it's destructive? It's only nature . . . a form of fire. And I don't consider fire - good or evil. Is destruction evil? Apparently, Jedi Masters like Yoda, Mace and Obi-Wan didn't think so, or else they would not have been willing to "destroy" the Sith in any form. Sometimes, destruction can have a positive effect . . . in a way that is not exactly straightforward. Sometimes, being "good" or having good intentions can result in evil.

This is why I agree that perhaps Force abilities are not good or evil . . . and that it all depends upon the individual's intent or the consequences of using an ability.

 

The thing is if a Jedi uses the Force too much, especially with such abilities as these, they're corrupted by them. Notice how Jedi almost never use the Force on a living being. And if they do, it is a mind trick. They never do a Force push unless it is against a Sith, someone like Grievous or droids. Only once was this ever done and it was when Yoda used it on several Clonetroopers. Otherwise, they never did. Note that the Jedi never use lightning in battle, going by the films.

To use lightning is to attack. To use anger and hate. Such emotions lead to the dark side.

 

To use lightning is to attack. To use anger and hate.

Force lightning could be a very handy thing to use to disable a droid. No anger or hate there.

 

Pretty handy to start a fire too. Boiling water and cooking some food can't be of the Dark Side.

 

You have to have anger and hate to bring it about.

 

Why couldn't a Jedi use Force-Lightning to restart someone's heart? Would that be evil? To save someone's life? I don't mean like Anakin, where he has dreams of a dark future and ends up following a path that leads to that future. I'm talking about...well advanced CPR I suppose, with Force-Lightning.

As for whether it's actually possible for a Jedi to use lightning...well the best evidence is on Geonosis...and it's not Yoda.

After Dooku zaps Anakin, he turns to Obi-Wan and tells him to back down.

"As you can see, my Jedi powers are far stronger than yours...now back down" that's paraphrasing, can't remember if it's the exact quote...but he does say "JEDI" powers, not "Force" or "Sith" powers...sure he could just be referring to Force powers in general, but the fact that he says "jedi" would suggest that a Jedi can use Force Lightning.

However, even if they can, a power like that is dangerous, so the Jedi would most likely refrain from using it. Having said that, telekenesis (force push, choke etc) could also be in the same category as Force lighning as potentially dangerous and evil powers.

I don't think the powers themselves have anything to do with light or dark...it's how they're used...that's what matters.

 

See Cade Skywalker in "Star Wars: Legacy". But the thing is that there are limits to what can and cannot be done. As Yoda informs the Skywalker men the limits of what can be done with the Force and why death exists as it does.

YODA: "Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them, do not. Miss them, do not. Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed, that is."

YODA: "Soon will I rest. Yes, forever sleep. Earned it, I have."

LUKE: "Master Yoda, you can't die."

YODA: "Strong am I with the Force... but not that strong! Twilight is upon me and soon night must fall. That is the way of things ... the way of the Force."

To do what Palpatine spoke of and to do what Cade did, unnatural it is.

Dooku is trying to hide that he is a Sith from Obi-wan. He is not a Jedi anymore. He calls them Jedi powers, because he doesn't wish to reveal yet who he is. But the Jedi know the truth. The lightning is proof of that as is the red saber and what Dooku says to Yoda.

DOOKU: "You have interfered with our plans for the last time."

By this point, he has admitted to who he is.

 

IMO it was already clear Dooku was a Sith by the time he said "my Jedi powers".

 

In KOTOR, a lot of the dark vs light side powers sort of result from whether you're a light or dark sided individual. Although it's just a game mechanic, the more I thought about it, it did seem to make sense: it could be that being able to use Force lightning is a result of a person being evil rather than something that corrupts someone into becoming evil.

 

Is there a difference on how Jedi & Sith see the future?
(With regards to Light side & Dark side)

Sidious has stated how "...everything is proceeding as planned" or "...everything is proceeding as I have forseen."

Yoda mentions, "...in constant motion, the future is." (or something to that affect)

I guess my question is: How is Sidious (Darkside) certain when looking into the future whereas Yoda (Lightside) does not have the same certainty?

 

Sith deal in absolutes - they seek to make what they want to be the exact future. The future they see is what they attempt to bring about. They don't see any other way.

The Jedi on the other hand understand that the future is always in motion and depends greatly upon your acts in the moment - therefore they seek to do what is right in the moment, serve the force and thus bring a better future that way. But they know all too well that they cannot control everything.

 

Great post, I have to agree.

 

While I agree teh Jedi "understand that the future is always in motion," etc., the cannot grasp the implications that their own actions are having on the future.

The Jedi are not exactly flexible when we meet them in TPM. Qui-Gon, who follows the living force, is considered a rebel and passed over for the Jedi Council. The council rejects Anakin because he does not fit their narrow preconceptions.

In AOTC there is "war" or "no war," nothing in-between as one might expect from an order that prides itself on being "ambassadors" and "negotiators."

So over the centuries the Jedi adhered to inflexible standards while the galaxy changed around them. The Sith exploited those changes to their decided benefit, ultimately controlling both sides of the costly Clone War, eventually deceiving the Jedi and then springing a most deadly trap that puts the order on the verge of extinction.

Most importantly, the Jedi saw Anakin's future as "clouded." Palpatine knew exactly what future he wanted for Anakin -- to serve as his Sith apprentice. Anakin's confusion in a way mirrored the uncertainty within the Jedi order as they tried to divine the way ahead. Had the council merely accepted Anakin for what he was and embraced his strengths while helping him confront his weaknesses, they might have guided Anakin away from Palpatine's practice of absolutes and toward a more positive role within the order.

 

Little history lesson: This discussion began because darth-sinister was fighting a losing battle against the possibility of Jedi being able to use Force Lightning.

Anyway, in a fan fiction story by LadyPadme, Jedi Leia used Force Lightning as electro-shock therapy for a dying Mara. I firmly stand by my opinion that is not the action itself that is evil or that determines if a Force user is evil, but the intention behind the action.

 

But to be fair, Qui Gon was a rebel and he made "dangerous" decisions. And that's what his decision was (in taking Anakin) - dangerous. And it was show to be wrong - until it became right thirty odd years on. The jedi were just being cautious. Yes, they did indeed put too much onus on the cosmic force - in looking into the future. But at the same time, the rules were in place for a reason. And lets face it, they turned out to be right. Anakin was too old, he did have too much fear and he did go bad.

Because they knew the Separatists would not negotiate - and they believed the Sith were behind them. There was going to be a war. Of that there could be no doubt. It came as a great sadness. But they didnt bring it about. The Sith did. Palpatine did. And it was their mandate to fight to prevent the Sith from taking over. They just failed to see that the Sith were behind EVERYTHING and that they were indeed fighting for something that wasn't worht saving. Come ROTS the Republic was lost anyway.

You could say the Jedi had become stagnant and somewhat arrogant. They should have kept their guard up more. They shouldn't have dismissed the Sith. But then, at the same time, the dark side is hard to see and its all but impossible to know that you should evolve when there is no real threat about. I mean, the Jedi didnt know the Sith had survived and had adapted themselves - so how were they to know that they should have changed and be prepared to fight a "new enemy"?

Thats exactly what they did do - Anakin just didnt listen and was too full of fear. But the point you bring up kind of reflects what i was saying. The Jedi saw Anakins future as clouded - basically, they saw that it could go many ways and because he was old and so full of fear, it was a dangerous move. Palpatine on the other hand deals in absolutes - he does see one future for Anakin and he made sure that future happened.

 

But to be fair, Qui Gon was a rebel and he made "dangerous" decisions. And that's what his decision was (in taking Anakin) - dangerous. And it was show to be wrong - until it became right thirty odd years on. The jedi were just being cautious. Yes, they did indeed put too much onus on the cosmic force - in looking into the future. But at the same time, the rules were in place for a reason. And lets face it, they turned out to be right. Anakin was too old, he did have too much fear and he did go bad.


There is as much danger in adhering TOO MUCH to the rules as there is in being a rebel. To blame Anakin's slide into darkness on Qui-Gon, while abstaining blame from the Jedi Order and Obi-Wan strikes me as a very narrow view to take on the whole situation.

 

Key word, fan fiction. Not the same as actual fiction. As shown in "Legacy", Cade Skywalker used the lightning to save his Master and now is on the path to the dark side. Jacen Solo, Jaina Solo, Kyp Durron and a number of others used the lightning. All were either lost fully or partially to the dark side.