Light & Dark: Force powers.

That kind of proves the point...I'm not a reader of EU, but I assume Cade was a Jedi when he used Force Lightning and began to fall to the Dark Side after that...

If that's the case, then it shows (at least in EU) that it is possible for a Jedi to use that power, which suggests that the power itself isn't a Dark Side power. But what happens is that when a Jedi uses a Force technique that powerful, it creates a lust for power that wasn't there before. It's the lure of the Dark Side, the quest for greater power. Force lightning can be used by any Force-sensitive individual who knows how to use it, light or dark. The danger lies in what happens afterwards.

 

It can be used by a Jedi, but the problem is that it relies on fear and anger and hate. To use this is to invite the dark side in. This is also unnatural which is why the Jedi do not use it and in Luke's time, he frowns upon it's usage. Those who do in the eu, either follow the Potentium or become totally evil. Few manage to break from the dark side. In the films, the Jedi are not supposed to use anger and hate. Thus they do not summon the lightning.

 

To use this is to invite the dark side in.

So what? A person simply cannot avoid or disregard the dark side of one's nature forever. It's just as unnatural as a person avoiding or disregarding the lighter of his or her nature. Instead of allowing one side to dominate and the other to be supressed, perhaps a person needs to acknowledge both their inner darkness and light and learn to CONTROL it and use it accordingly, instead of allowing one half of one's nature to dominate.

 

Well that's the core issue of the debate really...does one need to draw on hate, fear and anger to use Force Lightning? Personally I don't think so...the reason ebing, you don't have to hate something to use a Force-push, or choke, or a mind trick, yet both Jedi and Sith are capable and have been known to do such things. I see Force Lightning the same way. To say the Jedi don't use it because it leads to the Dark Side would imply that the Jedi are afraid of the consequences of using it...but fear itself leads to the Dark Side.

But even Jedi experience fear...it's just a matter of controlling it, of not letting it consume you. It's the same with Force Lightning. When it's used, there's always a temptation to use it again. That kind of power is hard to resist, so the jedi don't use it, thereby removing the temptation...but that doesn't mean they can't use it.

Not a perfect analagy here but I kind of see it like alcohol. Having a drink doesn't mean you're going to become an alcoholic, just like using Force Lightning doesn't mean you will fall to the Dark Side.

But if you get a taste for the drink...you might want another one, and another and another...you want more until eventually you're consumed by it and you find that you have become an alcoholic...you're addicted to drink.

Force Lightning is the same...it's addictive, the feeling of power is hard to ignore and suddenly you find yourself wanting more and more power until one day you look in the mirror and find that you have yellow eyes.

But then a lot of people drink who aren't alcoholics. They've learned to control their urges.

And Force Lightning, while not a Dark Side power...can lead to it...if a Jedi does use it, he or she has to lear to control the lust for more power and not let it consume them...and the Jedi do this by avoiding the temptation altogether and not using it.

 

So what? A person simply cannot avoid or disregard the dark side of one's nature forever. It's just as unnatural as a person avoiding or disregarding the lighter of his or her nature. Instead of allowing one side to dominate and the other to be supressed, perhaps a person needs to acknowledge both their inner darkness and light and learn to CONTROL it and use it accordingly, instead of allowing one half of one's nature to dominate.

Even the Jedi don't say you have to ignore your darker side. Both Skywalker men are told to confront their inner darkness. Anakin does it in the Clone Wars(which as EU isn't necessarily entirely valid) and Luke in the Dark Side cave on Dagobah.

 

You might as well use the same analogy in regard to the "light side" of the Force. It's one thing to do a good deed. But when a person starts becoming convinced of his or her own goodness - to the extent that he/she would do anything to maintain that goodness and destroy evil - that person is in serious trouble. This is the very trap that the Jedi Order ended up falling into, because they became arrogantly convinced of their own goodness.

And there is also the problem of the person who succumbs to their inner goodness so much that he or she falls into the danger of opening his or herself to the exploitation of others. Sometimes, you have to be nasty. It all depends upon the right moment or the right situation. And in this regard I mean both light and darkness.

 

I blame Anakin.

 

You're right. In the end, Anakin is to blame. Of course, I do believe that Obi-Wan, the Jedi Council, Padme and Palpatine all contributed to his slide into darkness. But he could have overcame their negative impact upon him and made better choices.

 

Yeah. Mistakes were made. Padme should have been stronger. Obi Wan could have been a stronger teacher. The Jedi Council could have kept a closer eye on him. Palpatine "could have left him alone". But he made the choices. It was his fear and greed that turned him to the dark side, so I blame him. he is at fault. But some responsibility should be taken elsewhere. But I certainly don't think the Jedi were some terrible evil teachers who screwed him up. Sidious did the worst damage. AAnd Anakin was just greedy.

 

Congratulations, part of your post just repeated my earlier post.

But in regard to the Jedi and Palpatine, they screwed up Anakin as much as he screwed himself. Including the much "beloved" Obi-Wan Kenobi.

 

I(fairly predictably) wouldn't say the Jedi were as responsible as the one who committed all of the atrocities with his own saber.

 

They do that. They control themselves. But they also know that it is wise to avoid temptation which unfortunately comes with using the Force in such a manner. The Force can control you and corrupt you very easily. This is the ultimate form of corruption and the ultimate violation of the Force. To attack a person with it. This is why Yoda never used it against Palpatine. Much less any other Jedi. It's too dangerous.



Let's look for a moment using the eu, since it's the only place where Jedi are seen using the lightning. Jaina Solo started using it upon the death of her brother Anakin and the apparent death of Jacen. Fear, anger and hate motivated her and the end result was that she used it much to the chagrin of everyone aboard The Trickster. Cade had anger and hate for the death of his father and the near loss of his Master. Every time Palpatine used it, he was angry. And the madder he got, the more intense it became. When Jacen first used it, it was out of rage and hate towards the Yuzzhan Vong.

Because it is an offensive form of attack, it is also shunned. With Force shoves, Jedi seldomly use them on the living, in case they unintentionally cripple or kill their target. Jedi don't choke with the Force. In fact, the only ability ever used on the living consistantly has been the mind trick.

 

They do that. They control themselves.

You seemed to be referring to the Jedi's darker nature. What about their goodness? And their tendency to wallow in their sense of goodness? This is something that they had failed to control in the PT. It made them arrogant in the end. And blind.

 

I don't see them wallow in their goodness. They did perhaps become complacent and arrogant due to believing the Sith couldn;t possibly wipe them out.

But Sin is spot on, being a Jedi is all about confronting your dark side, overcoming it and having control over yourself - not acting irrationally, on your emotions.

 

I don't see them wallow in their goodness. They did perhaps become complacent and arrogant due to believing the Sith couldn;t possibly wipe them out.


And I believe that the Jedi's excessive sense of their own goodness led them to believe that the Sith couldn't wipe them out. And I believe that it made them complacent and arrogant.

In the end, the Jedi were no more balanced than the Sith.

 

So people who wish the best for the Galaxy and defend the helpless are no better than the people who slaughter children and blow up planets?

Edit: It's admittedly somewhat of a simplification but I think it represents the massive gap between the core values of the Jedi and the Sith.

 

i love this comment...

so if i choose anger as my emotion to feed off, i cant do good deeds? if you feed off compassion you can obviously still kill, every jedi in the PT shows us that.

as i posted in the "door swings both ways" thread, the Force has no will of its own, it doesnt take sides at all, it is romantic notion to think otherwise. when Palpatine was shocking Luke did he run out of power cus the Force was on Lukes side that day =P all the jedi use the Force and it is purely a matter of PoV as to goodguy/badguy, so it would stand to reason that the emotion you use to channel the Force is irrelivent as well, even the action you take after channeling the Force being good or bad is still decided by who is doing the observing. just cus Yoda didnt have the willpower to control his anger and use it wisely doesnt mean it a no no. Count Dooku used anger and was always in control, he wasnt slobbering and force choking everyone in site. when mace confronts him on the balcony at Geonosis, who is the attacker, who draws a sword, and who is captain calm and polite

 

The Sith are the imbalance though. Lucas has said it himself. The Force created the Chosen One to destroy the Sith, so I'd say it 'favors' the Light over the Dark.

 

The Sith are the imbalance though. Lucas has said it himself. The Force created the Chosen One to destroy the Sith, so I'd say it 'favors' the Light over the Dark.[/quote]

i understand where you are at, Lucas IS the creator, and I have no rite to question his plan or intention, but i dont feel i am doing that here.

as i said believeing oneself to be good or evil, or that one action/person/situation are good or evil is a romantic notion, while these are romantic stories and i am sure we are meant to believe one thing or another, the nature of good and evil themselves dont exist, this is a universal understanding that Lucas cant change with all the intentions and money in his pocket.

again i dont see how a non commital entity can "favor" one or the other

i will say again that its Lucas' pen that molds the starwars universe i know, but no matter how much he wants me to like Yoda and hate Palpatine or whomever, by penning a non sentient universal entity as a main portion of his saga , he forefits his ability to decide who is good and bad, regardless of intention

inc flames about my arrogance and the "who are you to tell Lucas..."

edit: sorry wanted to add, that who knows why the chosen one was created, even Yoda wasnt sure on that

 

No, I actually think it's perfectly good to question Lucas. I presented it as Lucas's word = fact because it's TFN's policy. You're right that Lucas can't change the nature of reality, but Star Wars is for the most part fantasy/a morality play, so there's some significant differences, and I think the nature of objective and absolute good and absolute evil within the films is one of those differences.

I also don't view the Force as an entity of any kind. When I say the Force is with the Light Side, I mean that the Jedi wor with the Will of the Force, and the Sith work against it, thus creating the imbalance.

 

So people who wish the best for the Galaxy and defend the helpless are no better than the people who slaughter children and blow up planets?


It depends on what they are willing to do to guarantee the "best for the Galaxy". There's another old saying: "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." If you take into account some of their actions - Yoda and Mace's attempts to kill Palpatine, Ki-Adi Mundi's suggestion that the Jedi Council take control of the Senate, fighting the Separatists on behalf of the Republic, etc. - it seems that the Jedi's "good intentions" eventually did lead them to a road of hell . . . for themselves and for the Galaxy.

 

Master Starwalker...as always you hit me with sound logic, your comment about the nature of the saga being a morality play is spot on, i just see so much flaw and hypocracy from both sides, that even tho i am supposed to like the jedi and hate the sith, i cant help thinking they are both in the lacking, guess i cant escape my nature even if GL wants me too =)

Ramred....the quote at the top of your post got me thinking, how cool was it for Leia to lie about the location of the rebel base when an entire planets existence rested on it...regardless of wether or not Tarkin would keep his word, or even if she thought they would buy it, Leia sux!

edit: just curious from above post...in the entire saga is it ever refered to as "the LIGHT side of the force" i dont recall? i only remember "force" and "Darkside of the force"

 

I don't recall ever hearing the term "Light Side of the Force", just "The Force" and "Dark Side of the Force".

 

Palpatine was a Sith. The Separatists were attacking innocent Republic systems, as they had been doing since the beginning of the PT.
You really believe it was wrong for Yoda to try and kill the Sith? That means you've bought into Palpatine's scam, along with a lot of Coruscanti.
What was Yoda supposed to do? Write a harshly-worded letter?

 

Fenn...you make a really interesting point here, got me thinking, i think knowing when you are beaten is a big factor here. at the point when Yoda decided to make a run at Palpatine i think we can all agree that the transition from republic to empire was in its last phase(even if the senate was dissolved later)2 jedi left, the CiS army was shut down, and please believe Palps had his chain of command in action somewhere, i would guess a young Tarkin was already working on the Star. so even if 1 or even both jedi were successful, the odds were still against them. had Yoda taken action earlier it mite have been more like defending the republic, but at this point it strikes me as revenge in a sense. not to make lite of what Yoda was going thru but its more like his pride was hurt, or his feelings or what have you, and he wanted to get the guy who embarrased him.

i am sure he felt that if both him and Obi succeeded things would work out, but it still seems vengeful, and regardless of situation i cant see a jedi rationalizing vengence.

also kind of makes me look at the OT as 2 embarrased and beaten jedi sneaking about and plotting revenge on the guy that took there lunch money...just a thought

"revenge is like a water vessel with a hole in it, it contains nothing but the promise of emptiness"