Saga Lucas’s vision of the Sith and galactic history over time

We can, because there's no contradiction whatsoever. The fact that the Sith killed each other through in-fighting before they were reformed in no way excludes the involvement of the Jedi (at that moment or later on) in finishing them off.

They ruled the universe 2000 years before the movies, their power and order crumbled through in-fighting and were last seen 1000 years afterwards. The Jedi could have been involved at any time. What didn't happen was a Jedi vs Sith war.

 

Maybe “there was no war” refers to what happened 2000 years before the movies and “until the Jedi came along” refers to the Jedi seemingly wiping out the Banites 1000 years before the movies?

Of course, it’s possible that Lucas played KOTOR and decided to incorporate the idea of a Jedi-Sith War into his universe, and that in the starwars.com interview he’s talking about what he intended in 1999 and not his universe as it stood the day before the Disney sale.

 

I think some of us have stepped too far into GL's mind.

That's just the nature of the beast. He created a lush and beautiful space fantasy that seemingly has no end in sight. We are stuck over-analyzing the painstaking artistic detail he labored into SW. The problem is really all those inconsistencies he left before retiring. We are left with what he has given us...but that is already quite a lot. If we are not careful, explaining the labor Lucas put into SW can unfortunately become our labor as fans. Really, Lucas aimed to be a popular film director with some fringe artistic leanings. Even though we see the artistic value of SW, at the end of the day, it is merely entertainment. His films cannot go outside of the confines of popular entertainment, no matter how engrossing they are and no matter how interactive they are.

Disney is now the owner, probably for reasoning that Disney has decades of managing interactive franchises. When SW-SciFi-mania hit in the late-70s, Disney basically stepped up to the plate and showed people like Lucas that they were going to be a part of it. The Star Tours ride at Disneyland has been running since about 1986. SW has been like a version 6.0 to Disney's 3.0.

Some of us have found a pattern of consistency when we have looked hard enough. Others have not. Can SW educate? Maybe, hopefully.. A younger Lucas realized the potential to educate people through his films. That is probably the best we can draw out of being SW fans.

 

If the TPM novelization had said “thousands of years ago” rather than “almost two thousand years ago”, the EU could have interpreted the novelization to be talking about the First Great Schism or about Exar Kun.

 

When the first Mortis episode said that the last time the Mortis signal was used was “over 2000 years” ago, I wondered if Mortis had something to do with the founding of the Sith.

 

In the quote, it seems to me he's specifically reacting to the idea that there was a huge war which was responsible for killing off all the Sith. He's emphasizing that the original Sith were responsible for their own downfall. I don't think his intention was to deny that there was ever any war-like conflict between Jedi and Sith. He's said himself that the Jedi finished them off at some point and such wars have been referred to repeatedly in media that he's overseen. I don't think it's a contradiction as opposed to Lucas speaking imprecisely off-the-cuff, as is so often the case.

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Well, clearly something happened a thousand years before the movies which involved the presumed destruction of the Sith, a full-scale war, and the establishment of the current Republic. This does not seem to be the same something which happened much earlier than that and involved the dissolution of a different Sith rule, which happened primarily because of in-fighting. In TCW, Sidious refers at one point to "Sith empires," in the plural. These are all hints.

 

I think the fact that the TPM novelization goes out of its way to name Darth Bane made fans think Bane would be important later on in the prequels, and that, combined with Sidious in Dark Empire saying ROTJ wasn’t his first death, led to the essence transfer theory. I know that the theory existed before the Darth Bane books were written.

 

How well does the Exegol business fit with Lucas’s vision of the Sith? That’s obviously a cult dedicated to the Sith, but I’m wondering if there’s anything inherently contradictory about having a planet full of dark side devotees hidden for decades or centuries. Of course, if the planet had been abandoned for most of the millennium before the movies, it doesn’t really matter.

 

The Sith Eternal don’t seem to Force-Sensitive, and we’re never told that there’s a limit on non-Force-sensitives serving the Sith.

 

In the EU there was many Dark Side organizations, some were affiliated loosely or directly with the Sith or came under their control.

On one hand they are almost like Guardians of the Whills and the Church of the Force in neo-Canon, and yet they are stranger. The Knights of Ren were Force sensitive(they are basically Inquisitors-lite), and they were part of the Sith Eternal. Plus they created Snoke. Sith loyalists/Sith Eternal have been operating in secret for centuries, they were very deeply entrenched. While most of them may of been lacking Force sensitivity, that did not stop them from being privy to many Sith secrets of generations past and they were technological wizards and skilled alchemists. We know that the Sith Eternal coupled technology and the occult brought forth unnatural embodiment of the dark side. So their quest to keep alive and resurrect the Sith tradition was very successful. Plus Sith and Dark Side relics had the ability to to imbue one with the Dark Side of Force on some level. But apparently the Sith(Darth Sidious) and Sith Eternal, in the TROS movie, were wiped out. But that is hard to believe the Sith are extinct, like the Jedi they keep coming back.

 

Well, JJ takes his cues from the movies, so it makes sense that Exegol would fit well with Lucas's vision of the Sith.

For example, most of the statues in Exegol have a lance or spear in one hand and a dagger, mostly hidden, in the other. This suggests secrecy and subterfuge, very characteristic of the Sith we are familiar with from the movies and TCW. Their clothing also suggests the traditional hooded look of the Sith who follow the Rule of Two.

Additionally, the set decorators for TROS designed the Sith laboratory in Exegol to look similar to Darth Vader's meditation sphere. That link suggests that Exegol was consistently a power-base for the Sith, not only in the ST but also through the OT and likely into the PT and beyond. Then there are the wayfinders, of which there are only two, one for each Sith Lord. So Exegol generally works well as the hidden throne world of the Sith Order. It is symbolically the broken shards of Narsil, there to be taken up and reforged upon the return of the king.

Indeed, on a broader scale the return of the Sith means the return of a monarchical tyranny. Their propensity to use their power to rule and overpower democracy is an essential characteristic as envisioned by Lucas. In the script for TPM, Yoda reacts to Qui-Gon's revelation about the Sith's return with the following statement: "The very Republic is threatened, if involved the Sith are." Then in the ROTS script, Obi-Wan says the following to Padme: "The Sith now rule the galaxy as they did before the Republic." That means that the very existence of the Republic is contingent on the Sith being extinct. If they survive and strive for power, they will bring Empire with them. So it's very fitting that JJ would bring in a Throne of the Sith into the sequels, which symbolizes clearly their antidemocratic nature.

 

I was thinking about this topic earlier today in reference to Palpatine's bas-relief frieze, which is one of the prequels' intriguing references to the galaxy's ancient past:



This is the concept art piece by Erik Tiemens, but the final frieze, which can be seen in the background of Palpatine's office in ROTS, is nearly identical to the concept. Here is what Tiemens had to say about this piece in The Art of Revenge of the Sith:

"The idea behind the archaeological frieze in Palpatine's office is that it depicts an event. George was very clear about making it a dynamic and somewhat gory scene of Jedi and aliens and warriors fighting each other."
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The ROTS visual dictionary additionally states that the frieze depicts a legendary battle between the Sith and the Jedi. What's interesting, though, is that when you look at the frieze more carefully, you notice that it only depicts the Jedi fighting against an army of aliens. There are no Sith in it, at least not obviously. You can see the original piece more clearly here and here. And the mural was most recently re-made for Disney's Galaxy's Edge, and there are very clear images of that version, such as this one:



In any case, the art book implies that part of the reason for including this frieze in the movie's background is to evoke the idea of recurring themes in Star Wars. Like the Clone War of the present (in the movie), the frieze depicts another war that ensnared the Jedi. Indeed, it's hard to ignore the very direct parallel to Obi-Wan riding the varactyl into battle in Utapau. But these ancient Jedi are fighting an alien species instead of droids, and this brings to mind the quote from Sidious in TCW: "Long have Sith empires been built upon the backs of slaves." So I wonder if the alien race the Jedi are fighting in the frieze are in fact slaves of the Sith Lords of that time period.

This is just a thought, but I think it fits well with what we've heard about Lucas's vision of Jedi and Sith history. It also starts me thinking about the Zygerrian slave empires from TCW, and how they disappeared around a thousand years before the series, with the emergence of the Republic and the disappearance of the Sith.

 

Those beings kind of resemble Snoke, no? I wonder if that was the original idea or inspiration behind him.

 

They look much shorter, more like the grey alien archetype than anything. Though they do also remind me of the Polis Massans who appear later on in the film.

I do wonder, though, whether the book Dark Legends that’s coming out later this month and featuring a story set in Exegol will include other Snoke-like homunculi as a servant race of the Sith.

Indeed, even in TCW, the clones and the droids are technically slave races, from a certain point of view. At least the clones are, for sure.

 

I wonder if Lucas imagined something like, “In the beginning of time, a group of people discovered a power that they named, “The Force.” Most wanted to use it for good, but one wanted to use it for evil...”

 

I think we can probably assume that the Sith were essentially an order of dark wizards who broke off from the main Jedi order in the distant past to obtain greater, forbidden powers. It’s a common enough story element in much fantasy and pulp fiction.

The ‘77 novelization said that knowledge of the Force started much like the popular reports in the late twentieth century of people with psychic powers; widely reported, but not quite believed, and with more than a little stigma and superstition attached to it. Over time these people learned more about their power, cleared away the superstition, and dedicated themselves to better understanding it from a more rational and enlightened perspective.

Across several early drafts, the Sith were a rival clan or order to the Jedi Knights. This changed a bit over time, but not much. The Emperor in the OT wasn’t a member, he was a dark side magician who learned and gained his power on his own, but he controlled the Sith, which eventually only meant Vader.

In the PT, the Emperor was made a part of the Sith, and we’ve seen the idea of their being a rival order continue to evolve. I suspect Lucas decided to formalize the Rule of Two so that he could parallel what we saw in the OT with Vader and the Emperor, spreading that dynamic across Sith history to give it a greater context.

Which is why this thread’s assertion that the more populous Sith orders of the EU were likely a misunderstanding really rang true for me. And it still does.

 

I wonder when and why Lucas decided to make Palpatine a Force-user.

 

It’s interesting to wonder how Lucas’s conception of the Sith changed over time, especially in terms of design. It seems that when Episodes I and II were being made, he was fairly open to many different kinds of Sith Lord designs. Many characters who would later appear in other forms were originally Sith Lord concepts: Mother Talzin and the Nightsisters, Assajj Ventress, Shaak Ti, Luminara Unduli, the twin Jedi sisters with the medusa-like hair.

Darth Maul of course became iconic in his representation of the pre-Vader Sith Lords. And yet, I’ve noticed that when it comes to depicting ancient Sith Lords, Lucas (through TCW) and Lucasfilm (through other canon works since) have gone with a more Vader-like focus. Consider that most ancient figures who are referenced or somehow seen tend to be wearing masks: Darth Bane, Lord Momin, the Jedi Mandalorian, the ancient Jedi warriors in Malachor. I don’t know if this is all Vader influence or if having the ancients wear masks is a good way of preserving the sense that they’re distant. They give us a visual representation without giving a face.

I’m sure there is a ton that could be said about the role of masks in Star Wars. But if we do consider only the Lucas Sith, then it’s only Darth Vader and Darth Bane who were masked. The first and the last Sith Lords. But in some ways I feel like the idea of visual continuity is somehow relevant to the Sith. I know that in designing new villains for the ST, some of the concept artists took Vader’s costume as a design inspiration for his order, to signify continuity. This contrasts with many of the Sith we saw in the EU, and with many we see in the current canon. But I wonder how closely it fits with Lucas’s conception of the Sith. Did he imagine an order of Vader-like Sith, or are cloaked figures like Sidious and Maul closer to it?

 

@Sauron_18

I think what's more interesting in all honesty was George allowed for the Sith order to be expanded at all in the EU. Granted he (Or someone in publishing not gonna necessary say it was George) shot down a few ideas for the Sith return such as the Nogri being the Sith (Hence Vader being Dark lords OF the Sith) and I think the Vong were gonna be the Sith at one point.

But my point is, unlike say something like the Clone Wars (Which Zahn touched anyway) the Sith where fair game to touch and expand upon.

 

That’s true. I wonder why the Noghri and the Vong were not allowed to be the Sith, but it was okay for a random species in the ancient past to be the Sith. Perhaps there was a stipulation that they be mostly extinct, or that Vader and Palpatine some of the last representatives? Maybe by setting some of those story elements in the distant past they were able to get away with more because it would not conflict with anything Lucas was working on during the late 90s.

Who knows. But Lucas never did seem to think of them as a species. In early drafts they were pirates who were taught the dark side by a fallen Jedi. Later they evolved into a rival order of Force sensitives who worked for the Emperor. By 1977, if the novelization is any indication, that still seemed to be more or less the idea, with Vader being one of several Dark Lords. They were something closer to the Inquisitors from Rebels, though with roles that went beyond hunting Jedi. Indeed, considering how much Rebels took inspiration from discarded conceptual art, it might be one of our clearer glimpses at early ideas for the Sith Order (then the Knights of Sith). I’m also fairly sure Kylo Ren and the Knights of Ren were modeled after those early ideas surrounding Vader in 1977x

 

@Sauron_18

It does seem that at least by the time of the Prequels Lucas had his idea of the Sith more or less down, I mean one could argue Dark Empire is the first time Palpatine is confirmed as a Sith but it's never completely confirmed until Phantom Menace when he is made into "Darth" Sidious. The Darth title itself not even being a title until the Prequels.

I do wonder if the idea of a "Sith Species" will factor into NuCanon I mean we have Korriban but do we have a species?

 

Sorry for the DP but.

We know in Legends that their was a SITH EMPRIE....We also know that in Canon we have a SITH EMPIRE confirmed.

But I do wonder how centralized a organization the Sith were Pre Rule of Two in Lucas mind. Like we know their were lots of Sith did they all coalesce and try to form a Empire or were they just evil wizards some in groups some not until eventually Bane was like...I'm just gonna train one and go for two.

Much like how in earlier iteration of the Jedi order in legends the Jedi Order was a far more decentralized organization.

 

I recently watched Avatar: The Last Airbender on Netflix, and whenever the Fire Nation showed up, I couldn't help being reminded of the ancient Sith as they were briefly portrayed in The Clone Wars. This reached its peak when I recognized that Fire Lord Ozai was voiced by Mark Hamill, who would also voice Darth Bane in TCW. Of course, both aesthetics were likely inspired by similar real-world imagery; for Bane, I believe it was ancient Chinese medieval armor. But considering Filoni's association with Avatar, I wouldn't be surprised if it was also a bit of a callback to the Fire Nation. And, for my own enjoyment, I did let myself imagine at times that I was seeing a depiction of those ancient Sith Empires as seen through a non-scifi lens. It's not too hard to connect them to the Sith and the dark side. I mean, fire-bending is even seen as the most dangerous power, hard to control, and with its purest expression being lightning.





Of course, if anything that would be Filoni's vision of the ancient Sith. And while he is well-informed about how Lucas viewed them, I wonder if Lucas has ever tried to imagine what they were like. He's always very open to letting artists explore these concepts in their own way. Yet Lucas does tend to have some idea to guide the concept phrase, so I wonder how much his own personal view guided the imagery for Bane and the Sith of Moraband during TCW, versus leaving that to Filoni or the concept artists for the show.

 

Although no longer canon, sans a few items that have been picked out, the story of the Je'daii order speaks of both the light and the dark under one order. The Jedi and Sith coexisted as one for thousands of years on the planet Tyhton. If a light or dark sider fell too far to their respective side, the were sent to one of Tython's two moons to meditate until they restored their inner balance. Eventually, the Sith started seeking power and split from the Je'daii order leaving two factions, the Jedi and Sith. It's a great read if you're interested.

 

Thank you! I did read many of the Dawn issues when they first came out years ago. But I never caught up to the later issues before the Disney purchase. I should give them another look. I think some elements of Dawn do match up somewhat with GL’s ideas for the Sith.

In one of the early drafts for the first SW movie, the Jedi were founded by a holy man known as the Skywalker, who discovered the Force and learned to communicate with it. He eventually became one of the founders of the Republic, where the Jedi served as a sort of elite warrior force. But the Skywalker was afraid that if he taught the Force to others, they would be seduced by its dark side. So he taught the Force only to his 12 children, and that knowledge was passed on to their children, and so on for generations. So the Jedi were a familial warrior clan.

In this draft, the Sith were a relatively recent threat who formed when a Jedi apprentice known as Darklighter was seduced by the dark side, ran away from his master, and taught the dark side to a clan of Sith pirates. The Sith mercenaries caused chaos across multiple star systems, but they eventually became the private fighting force for the Emperor, hunting down the Jedi for him when he turned the Republic into an Empire. In this version, the Sith were somewhat like the inquisitors, but I think they were also the basis for the Mandalorians.

I suspect that may be where the concept of a Sith species came from. EU writers may have interpreted Lucas’s comments about a fallen Jedi ruling over a clan or a people as meaning that he ruled over a different species. Certainly, the Sith were later established as having enslaved whole species. But it doesn’t really explain why they would take on their name. But it does make more sense if the Sith were a warrior clan similar to the Mandalorian tribe from the TV show, and who took in the fallen Jedi as one of their own. These mercenaries then became a significant fighting force, eventually attracting the Emperor’s favor. This also parallels some of the elements in play in Dune, where the Fremen people are taught the weirding way and become a formidable army under their messiah.

In the SW movies, the creation of the Sith was pushed back to thousands of years in the past, and the Jedi were no longer a family-based clan. But it’s possible that some of the basics of the earlier drafts are still in play:

Thousands of years ago, a Jedi Knight fell to the dark side, left the Jedi Order, and started a new cult: the Sith.

Some of the Sith may have been former Jedi. But not all were. Perhaps the idea is still that the fallen Jedi trained a clan of mercenary warriors known as the Sith, becoming their Dark Lord, and taking their name.

In any case, the Sith cult grew and conquered the universe for some time, with many Sith Lords oppressing the galaxy, each with their own apprentice. This could have been a decades-long rule. But it didn’t last for too long. The Dark Lord was killed, and then the other Sith Lords killed each other off.

The Jedi likely helped destroy the final few Sith, but most Sith were destroyed by other Sith forces. It’s entirely possible that we have a parallel to the movie era, with Jedi supporting rebellions within the Sith Empires and helping to destabilize them.

One Sith Lord survived in secret: Darth Bane. He continued the order in secret, but decreed that there would only ever be two Sith at a time. It’s ambiguous whether TCW implies that these Sith came into conflict with the Jedi, but Yoda was aware of Darth Bane, Moraband, and the Rule of Two.

On the other hands, the movies suggest this was the start of the Sith’s era of absolute secrecy. Once they were thought destroyed, the Sith bided their time for thousands of years, until they were able to take their revenge on the galaxy and the Jedi. There was just the initial war and then the war from the movies.

Maybe GL just changed his mind after the movies and liked the idea of there being some additional conflicts after Bane and before the presumed extinction of the Sith. He does like to create parallels, so maybe he wanted to give the storyline for TCW some historical precedent.