mace windu is REALLY overrated.

Mace Windu was no more arrogant than Obi-Wan, Yoda, Ki-Mundi and even Anakin. They were all arrogant. Mace being singled out for being the only arrogant Jedi is very ridiculous to me.


If Mace is overrated, so are the other Jedi. And considering what happened to them in ROTS, I can see why anyone would view all of the Jedi as overrated.

 

I know this is controversial but i will NEVER believe for one sec. that palpatine wasn't putting on a big act the whole time he fought with him mace. I mean anyone with eyes can look at Palpatine's face when hes pleading with Anakin to help him and see that he is SOOOOO very blatantly pretending.

I also say this because ian mcdermid is a great actor and awesome in that movie but in that scene it sounds so fake --because he IS being fake, hes pretending to need Anakins help when he really can kill mace at any time. He does everything but put his hands over his eyes and peek through his fingers while he says "please dont kill me, please" and then as soon as anakin starts to fall for it he even smiles and shifts his eyes, COME ON! He was totally faking it! Then as soon as the time is right he utterly pwns mace and blows him away like he always could have.

 

Lucas has said Mace overpowered Palpatine but that once the Sith Lord was on the ground he began 'exaggerating his weakness' and I tend to agree with that. Mace defeated Palpatine, but once Anakin entered the office, Palpatine started to feign weakness to make Anakin believe he was the victim.

 

I also say this because ian mcdermid is a great actor and awesome in that movie but in that scene it sounds so fake --because he IS being fake, hes pretending to need Anakins help when he really can kill mace at any time.


No, Palpatine didn't really need Anakin's help. On the other hand, I doubt that he could have easily killed Mace. I think that both men would have had great difficulty in killing each other.

 

Yes, he was beaten fair and square.
Letting yourself be beat just to appear helpless is extremely risky strategy, why the hell should he do that? When Anakin entered he just did what he could to turn the tables.

And I don't like this Palps is omnipowerful+omniscient crap. Unfortunately I way too often see his interesting character ruined by godmodding in books, etc. I mean, his masterplans always work perfectly and he is always a few steps ahead of everybody and he is also pretty much unkillable...

 

Lucas makes it pretty clear that Mace overpowered Sidious up until the point that Anakin arrived. If you're prepared to dispute that, then there's not much Lucas can say that will convince you of anything. It makes no sense for Sidious to be dominated the way he was if he was supposedly faking it. He would hold it in stalemate and then appear to be beaten after Anakin arrived. Anyway, that's been well and truly discussed.

Back to Mace, I just had a quick look at the greatest Jedi thread and Mace barely gets a mention. I really don't think many people put him among the greatest overall, so it's difficult to see how he can be called overrated. He's widely believed to be powerful in the force and a great swordsman. His performance against Sidious alone is enough to give weight to that belief IMO.

 

how dare you say yoda is overated...

he kicked dooku's ***...

he did very well against palpy, if only he hadnt slipped off that pod...

and he is the only person to ever absorb, and deflect lightning...

he is the second best jedi duelist... and is far and above the best jedi with the force...

mace is the best jedi duelist... and is definatly top 10 possibly top 5 in force...


dueling wise palpy is slightly better than yoda... force wise, yoda is slightly better...

 

When did Yoda kick anything of Dooku's? I can only remember them battling to a stalemate in AOTC.

 

Not true...

[image=http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n107/SithStarSlayer/Mighella_VS_Maul_01.jpg]
[image=http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n107/SithStarSlayer/TheDeathofMighella.jpg]

*I'm peeved that I can't locate the middle panel where he tells Mighella that she knows nothing about the darkside while she's pumping him full of lightning. Yoda doesn't have squat on Maul when it comes to dealing with Force lightning. Maul ate that stuff for breakfast.

 

You mean the part where Dooku ran like a biotch?

 

Does running make Yoda a biotch as well?

 

Well, it can probably go both ways, depending on how you look at it. . .

 

Both of those parties have been known to use "strategic retreat" Either way, there was no **** kicking going on as far as I could see.

 

Both were able to escape when the opportunity arose, not when they were thoroughly beaten by their opponent.



However, aren't we getting off-topic here?

 

yoda clearly won the duel... dooku escaped when he distracted yoda with the big rock thing he threw at annie and obi... he is a coward and that was his only way of survival...

yoda escaped from palpy not because he could not win but becausw he would be needed to train luke/lea in the future...

 

I agree. I would add that Mace was essentially leading the Council and barking all the Orders by ROTS. He was the Political face of the Council when dealing with the Chancellor and even Yoda defers to him at times (it seems to me at least)during ROTS. He made the final decision to take down the Chancellor and I never heard Yoda try to overrule him.

Did Mace get an upped profile because he was SLJ. You bet. But I also think GL had another Motive: He wanted Mace to represent or symbolize the ideal Jedi of old, how they didn't adapt and why they ultimately failed. He was GL's model of the elite Jedi Pre-empire. Mace was the poweful Jedi of old who was preapared to handle the tactics of the old sith, not the scheming and plotting of the new reformed Sith. He represented how the Jedi did not change but the Sith did and how Mace (the Jedi) failed to recognize their own faults or understand that true Power is not your fighting ability. (Yoda learns)

Finally, GL couldn't have Yoda shoulder all the blame for the Jedi's fall or else imo,it would dilute Yoda as the wise old sage in the Original Trilogy. Mace was an important character and foil for Palpatine.

 

Train them to do what?

Defeat Sidious.

So we can still say that "he could not win" after falling to the bottom of the rotunda. Because if he could have won at that point, then Luke and Leia would not have been needed.

 

Mace Windu is what he is simply because of Samuel L. Jackson. With a lot of characters in Star Wars you have to delve into the backstories to really get a depth on who and what they are. In the PT we hear nothing of Mace's Vaapad or his Shatterpoint Force ability he has. Mace is backed up by the EU and the cartoon shows. Other characters that are backed up by the EU would be General Grievous, Count Dooku, etc. Those are main characters too. I think that characters like Darth Maul and Qui-Gon were so awesome that you knew it. I like Mace Windu and I can see why someone would say he is overrated. I would say that as a viewer you can sort of tell that Mace is the one who would run the Order were Yoda to die or be preoccupied. In a sense the films back up him being #2 because of the fact that he speaks on issues in the Council scenes with as much input and authority as Yoda. He also leads the attack on Geonosis. I don't feel he is overrated. I do feel that the PT should have had each film be as long as ROTK so we can just have more Star Wars.

 

Exactly. For whatever reason you like to chose, Yoda could not have won that fight.

Back to Mace ... Yes, Mace's profile certainly owes something to SLJ, but I think you could say that about many of the characters played by well known actors. Do you think Kenobi would've taken on the same legendary status that he did had he not been played by Alec Guinness? Likewise Cushing as Tarkin and Liam Neeson as Qui-Gon. Those characters are in part a reflection of what those particular actors characteristically bring to roles.

I agree with SaberSlash that Mace is also a representation of the old Jedi, unable to adapt to the ways of the new Sith.

 

I've often said the same thing about Count Dooku. If it hadn't been Christopher Lee playing that role, he wouldn't have been nearly as well-received by the fans. Of course, you could say the same thing about Qui-Gon being all Liam Neeson, or the stuntwork and fighting skills of Ray Park being the only thing that made Maul a hit. Sometime SLJ gets accused of playing SLJ is every film, but I disagree. I bought that he was a no-nonsense warrior monk, and a serious one at that. His roles in Pulp Fiction and Unbreakable were completely different, and he always pulls it off.

 

His character was ALWAYS, from the beginning involved in that.[/i]

Boba Fett was an anonymous design for stormtrooper during preproduction of ANH. He didn't become Boba Fett until ESB. That can hardly be described as "from the beginning." And Lucas's word is hardly the best to go on when it comes to what's been part of the story from the very beginning. If Lucas really had a backstory in mind for him, it's doubtful he would have let those EU authors give him a different backstory.

As for Mace Windu, his role was expanded because he was SLJ, not because of EU exploitation.

 

I agree with all of the above. I'm one of the Count's biggest fans on the JC, but it's largely because of what Lee brings to the role.

 

I think the experienced celebrity guest star Jedi brings something to the prequels, and the originals for that matter. Alec Guinness was much better known in the originals, but having him in the role explains more about who the Jedi were than mountains of exposition. In the prequels, we expect Yoda, Obi-Wan and Anakin to have big roles, but Frank Oz, Ewan McGregor and Hayden Christensen are not big names, plus they are invincible to us, since we know they have to survive into the original trilogy. Other Jedi have to populate the film, and then be killed off. Qui-Gon is the main character of Episode I, and he gets killed off. To really hit the audience with a shock, it helps if that is the biggest name in the cast list. Liam Neeson fits the bill, and he also happens to play a Jedi really well. Count Dooku is a Jedi who precedes Anakin in his fall to the Dark Side. To really get the weight of this, the audience needs something more than the faceless menace that was Darth Maul. In Episode III the Jedi are wiped out, but there are far too many of them to develop their characters in detail, and we're emotionally detached from them since we know their fate. Being new characters, it's hard for any one of them to stand out. Jackson though is a recognizable fate, so when he is killed, you know how serious the Jedi purge is.

 

I agree with the above statement. By having big-name stars playing these roles, it adds more understanding to the film because the audience realizes that a well-developed character has just been killed off, so the situation must be more dire than it appears to be.

 

I'm with you re: Dooku, M_S, and Christopher Lee is fantastic in anything. A bit like Guinness, as soon as he appears, you know his character has gravitas.