Mara Jade, and her waning fan base?

?Thrawn McEwok:
Ah, where does it say that Anakin was still 16 in SbS? I'm pretty sure he's seventeen in the novel - he's explicitly said to be already sixteen in BP,

Are you sure about that? I only read each NJO book once and don't remember reading that, so I could very well be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Anakin was supposed to be 16 when he died. I remember thinking how silly it was to have a 16 year old in charge of that suicide mission.

and Jaina is already nineteen in SbS

Now *that* really seems like an error. She was only 16 in BP, and she is only a year and a half older than Anakin, so even if Anakin *is* a young 17 in SBS, Jaina could only be 18.

- while Tahiri, who is two years younger than Anakin, turns 14 just before Conquest, and is already fifteen in SbS...

I don't think there is that much time between Conquest and SBS, is there? Again, if Ben is only 4 months old in SBS and Mara is three or four months pregnant during Conquest, that means only about 9 or 10 months have passed at the most, right? So if Tahiri just turned 14 before Conquest, how can she be 15 in SBS?

I *do* wish the authors would have noted the amount of time that passed between events a little more often. Some think a year passed between SBS and Traitor, for example, but it could also be as little as a few months.?

First off, I?d like to remind people that while the length of a Galactic Standard year is three days longer[/bn] than ours, it only has 10 months in it, not 12. Ben was 4 Galactic Standard months (approximately 4.8 Earth months)old. Also, The twins were 17 in [/i]Balance Point[/i], almost?but not quite? 18. They were 18 in Star by Star, almost 19. One year passes between each hard cover; the events in Traitor take place over the course of entire year however.

As far as Mara?s disguise goes, and her apparent ?inappropriate? actions, She was disguised as a Kuati Noblewoman. The fact is that the way Mara was dressed, and the way she acted, was entirely appropriate for a Kuati noblewoman. She was playing a part, and making jest of Anakin?s reaction. There was nothing inappropriate involved.

I also have to say that Mara probably did have sexual relations with other men before Luke. Not so much for companionship, but more for the sake of her missions. Sex has often been used in undercover operations and especially assassinations. What better way to get close to someone than to sleep with them.

 

Retcons are lies that take the place of imagination, and conviction. By Zahn basically faking his own character's histories, he is cheating himself and his belief in his own creativity. It's a shame, because not only has he cheapened his own character, he has lost her many fans. I used to like the old Mara. I cannot abide the NJO Mara (or SQ) and her past that is whiter than Tom Sawyer's picket fence. Fake! Just Kidding? Sorry.

So retcons should never happen?

We can skip by that for now. What you are saying is that you do not believe in retcons. Just for curiosity sake, how strong a term is retcon. Is something a retcon if it just explains out more what was loosely described earlier? Is it a retcon if we never have any actually proof of something other than something circumstantial and thus not proven? Or is it a retcon if it truly contradicts what was written at an earlier time? Second I do not get how you can claim her past is whiter than Tom Sawyers picket fence when she herself claims she served evil.

Oh and Shelley I truly am curious what is was Mara said in Reunion that is an insult to Anakin Skywalker. I have not reached that book yet in my rereading of the NJO.

OWLC

 

Tramp: I also have to say that Mara probably did have sexual relations with other men before Luke. Not so much for companionship, but more for the sake of her missions. Sex has often been used in undercover operations and especially assassinations. What better way to get close to someone than to sleep with them.

This is true, but wouldn't the promise of sex work just as well? I mean once she is close enough to have sex, couldn't she just kill the guy before anything sexual actually occurred? Now I can understand her becoming intimate if the undercover mission was to obtain intelligence information. I do not know if Mara was involved with this type of mission.

 

Tiershon: Hey! I was (am!) a fan of "Formbi"...

Then again, I fear that I may be responsible for the character's name - I know I've mentioned at least once online that my mental image of Thrawn kept eliding into a blue-skinned, red-eyed version of the ukelele player George Formby...

I can't find it on TF.N, RASSM, or AFW, though which leads me to think it might have been an icq chat with Mike Stackpole or Aaron Allston - am I vain to wonder if the idea might have got back to Zahn...



And are you sure Mara's past is white, or is that just part of the characterization of her present in the novels?

ChildOfWinds: Jaya's hit seventeen by Onslaught, IIRC, and Anakin is already fifteen in VP... the various implications of the novels do all work out - but for various reasons, you have to imagine a "New Republic" year ending in late spring with the Yavin aniversary, rather than at Fete Week... and place VP very late in Skywalker Era 25 (in the "early spring" of SE 26, in fact)... BP thus kicks off just over a year after VP, while (assuming a ten-month year) SbS in turn is a year and two months after BP (ie, after Jaina's seventeenth birthday)... DW is fuzzier, as is the gap from DW to FH3 through TUF - though TUF has to hit the "start" (ie late spring) of Skywalker Era 30...

Where does it say Mara's three or four months pregnant in Conquest, btw?

Tramp: good grief!? We're agreeing?!

- The Imperial Ewok

 

Tramp:
First off, I?d like to remind people that while the length of a Galactic Standard year is three days longer[/bn] than ours, it only has 10 months in it,

Who decided this? George Lucas? Where does it say this in any film or in any novel? I may have missed this when I saw the films and read the books, but I never heard of this until I read this on one of these boards about two months ago. I also read on that same board, that some of the authors chose not to follow this in writing their books.

So, since I don't understand why we would follow this strange Galactic year anyway, and since some of the authors seem to feel as I do, I'll just bow out of this discussion about ages and continue to think about it in Earth years for myself.

 

I agree with OWLC. Not everything that we label a retcon is, truly, by definition, a retcon.

 

My brother has a friend over and they're watching the arena scene from Ep.II. For some reason they are laughing their heads off. Yeah, reeks are really funny...

I also have to say that Mara probably did have sexual relations with other men before Luke. Not so much for companionship, but more for the sake of her missions. Sex has often been used in undercover operations and especially assassinations. What better way to get close to someone than to sleep with them.

I'm sure there's plenty of ways to get information without sleeping with someone . Besides, why would Mara put herself in such a vulnerable situation? The guy could get wind of what she's really up to and pull a weapon on her anytime.

This is true, but wouldn't the promise of sex work just as well? I mean once she is close enough to have sex, couldn't she just kill the guy before anything sexual actually occurred? Now I can understand her becoming intimate if the undercover mission was to obtain intelligence information. I do not know if Mara was involved with this type of mission.

Yeah, I never heard that she was either, and frankly I seriously doubt it. It's only speculation anyway!

But I personally don't think that Vader/Anakin's sacrifice did make up for his Sithly life. And had he lived, he'd have had to face the music for it.

ATTONED! That's the word I was trying to find! Attoned!!! I'm so proud of me!

You kind of wonder what Vader would have to do to attone for his past. Think of all the millions that died because of him. He'd need a billion and five years in prison or something...

I think she did want closeness every once in a while, if only on the physical level, and that was how she satisfied it.

I disagree--Mara didn't want closeness, she pushed people away from her. While Emperor's Hand she was wrapped up in carrying out missions (and probably thought other people were beneath her) and after Palpatine died she was too angry and mistrusting to get close to anyone. Her having intimacy with someone during those times just doesn't fit with her character then.

(Finally! Eye roll gif!)

I've always wanted one too!

No. A lie is a lie. Zahn is unprofessional and has ruined his credibility and continues to do so, by changing his stories and even his character's histories and NAMES. He is a very poor writer. Credibility is something you lose once and forever. If that above is the only thing that shocks you into realizing how offensive Zahn's lies are, then good. I find it offensive in the extreme that he keeps changing this and that to flatter himslef, alone.

He wrote that Lando and Mara did not have a relationship--wow, I'll never trust him again!!!! Actually it was KAJ's fault, so he, too, is no longer credible as a writer, and had better go beg on street corners right now cuz I sure as heck am not even going to glance at a word he typed.

I don't understand how Zahn's "lies" could be offensive (lies?). As characters change and develop sometimes you have to revise their histories and etc. I also don't understand how Zahn (KAJ) writing off Lando and Mara's relationship could make himself look good...

IMO Lando and Mara didn't seem right as a couple at all, and saying they were working undercover sounds more in keeping with their characters. After all, Mara spent most of her life working undercover (and still does at times) and Lando can be devious at times (ESB). Mara would be too busy rolling her eyes @ Lando anyway to consider a--a--relationship!!

Definitely. Leia is definitely the love of Han's life, not Bria, who most people haven't even heard of!

Thank goodness.

I hope you didn't think I thought otherwise!

 

First off, I?d like to remind people that while the length of a Galactic Standard year is three days longer than ours, it only has 10 months in it, not 12. Ben was 4 Galactic Standard months (approximately 4.8 Earth months)old. Also, The twins were 17 in Balance Point, almost?but not quite? 18. They were 18 in Star by Star, almost 19. One year passes between each hard cover; the events in Traitor take place over the course of entire year however.


Geez, are you studying to be a fertilty specialist? I think you put way too much thought into that.






So retcons should never happen?

Nope! And esp. not ten years later.

Other retcons I hate: AC Crispin actually telling her fans that she knows what Han was feeling in ANH, better than Lucas. He was really so "grief stricken, he wanted to die that's why he chased the stormtroopers ont he DS. He didn't care." Yeah right.

We can skip by that for now. What you are saying is that you do not believe in retcons. Just for curiosity sake, how strong a term is retcon. Is something a retcon if it just explains out more what was loosely described earlier? Is it a retcon if we never have any actually proof of something other than something circumstantial and thus not proven? Or is it a retcon if it truly contradicts what was written at an earlier time?

If it truly contradicts the earlier work, or more importantly, if it contradicts the movies, which are the final word.

Think Yoda and darkside dominating you forever thing.

So Zahn gives this schizophrenic spiel of Mara being equal to Vader but being "innocent" because she was dedicated completely to her world murder, mayem, choas, and genocide. That makes her innocent.

That is not only not following the story, it is not following logic, or common sense.
Mara is the most powerful force user in the galaxy, equal to Luke ( ).
But wait, when Luke met her, she couldn't lift a pebble in the force. She didn't know how to use a lightsaber.
But wait! She was really trained to be jedi, using a saber since birth, but she just "forgot" because the emperor croaked. (I'm glad I didn't forgot how to drive when my grandmother died.) She was so butt kicking, but after Palptine croaked her powers "went away".
Then she meets Luke and it comes back, memories and ALL! (Uh huh, I have land in Florida to sell you too.)
All this proves to me is that my theory of her being a force leech/parasite are correct.

Second I do not get how you can claim her past is whiter than Tom Sawyers picket fence when she herself claims she served evil.

If she really does, she's the only one who does. The other characters all think she is lily white and flawless. I hate her being written that way. I like Mara best in JAT. She had a sense of humor, and didn't get played off as something she wasn't.

 

Double post.

 

So Zahn gives this schizophrenic spiel of Mara being equal to Vader but being "innocent" because she was dedicated completely to her world murder, mayem, choas, and genocide. That makes her innocent.

When does Zahn claim Mara innocent in the books?

That is not only not following the story, it is not following logic, or common sense.
Mara is the most powerful force user in the galaxy, equal to Luke ( ).
But wait, when Luke met her, she couldn't lift a pebble in the force. She didn't know how to use a lightsaber.
But wait! She was really trained to be jedi, using a saber since birth, but she just "forgot" because the emperor croaked. (I'm glad I didn't forgot how to drive when my grandmother died.) She was so butt kicking, but after Palptine croaked her powers "went away".
Then she meets Luke and it comes back, memories and ALL! (Uh huh, I have land in Florida to sell you too.)
All this proves to me is that my theory of her being a force leech/parasite are correct.

Zahn has claimed Mara to be as powerful as Luke? Second she never forgot how to use a Saber, she was only taught certain techniques. (ie using the tip for certain movements) Is it claimed the Emperor trained her to be a jedi? One can be trained in the force and in the use of a lightsaber and not be trained in the ways of the jedi.

If it truly contradicts the earlier work, or more importantly, if it contradicts the movies, which are the final word.

If this is what you truly believe then there is no retcon about Lando and Mara's involvement. Their relationship during the years of alledged couplehood were never truly defined. We were given circumstanial evidence, but never deffinitive truth. In fact we are given statements that contradict the claims that they were a serious item. Is there a hard evidence fact that Mara and Lando were together? Is it claimed Mara had a lilly white past as you so put it? Or is it just implied that this past has been moved past and many are focusing on something else?

OWLC

 

I think VotF should be declared Infinities,

 

If it truly contradicts the earlier work, or more importantly, if it contradicts the movies, which are the final word.

If this is what you truly believe then there is no retcon about Lando and Mara's involvement. Their relationship during the years of alledged couplehood were never truly defined. We were given circumstanial evidence, but never deffinitive truth. In fact we are given statements that contradict the claims that they were a serious item. Is there a hard evidence fact that Mara and Lando were together? Is it claimed Mara had a lilly white past as you so put it? Or is it just implied that this past has been moved past and many are focusing on something else?

Well, HTTE negates that Mara was any good at using the force and only had nominal ability with a saber. She was a lousy force user, that criticized Luke for giving himself a jedi master title after ten years, but she brags on her own undeserved title after six. She really reeks of hypocrasy.

You go ahead and fantasize that Mara was this virginal angel. You keep saying you don't feel that way, but your arguments consistently show otherwise. You refuse to even entertain the notion of accountability.

I think that the people that hate the idea of Lando are basically racist that somehow think that Lando is "unworthy" of some assassin/smuggler. Basically a criminal at the time this was going on. No saintly child, no angel. An aggressive, arrogant, unconscinable woman. She and Lando are a much better match than Mara and Luke ever were, or will be.

People thinking that Mara was an angel of sorts, in a murderer's/criminal's clothing is just so.....
lame.

 

Tiershon_Fett: I think that the people that hate the idea of Lando are basically racist...

First, as a Mara fan, you have called me a person with no conscience, and a lover of tyranny. Now I am a racist for thinking Luke and Mara are a better match than Lando and Mara.

I do not think that is a fair categorization of Mara fans.

Or did I miss a ::Sarcasm:: warning somewhere?

Tiershon_Fett: Well, HTTE negates that Mara was any good at using the force and only had nominal ability with a saber.

You are correct here. I am pretty sure in HTTE there is a comment that Mara only used a lightsaber a half dozen times in her life. I am going through the book now in order to find the quote.

If I am correct, then there is a big discrepancy in her ability with the lightsaber, because in the Mara Jade comic, which takes place prior to HTTE, she is seen using the lightsaber like a pro.

Tiershon_Fett: You go ahead and fantasize that Mara was this virginal angel...You refuse to even entertain the notion of accountability.

I do not believe that even the most rabid Mara fan thinks she is an angel. I think most of her fans see her as a flawed individual. I want to emphasis the word "Most". You are always going to run into the occasional eccentric who believes in things counter to what is written.

As for accountability, what do you think Mara should do to account for her past?

She is already regretful for her actions as the Emperor's hand. In Balance Point we find Mara thinking about the days when she was the Emperor's Hand. The following is written:

"She carried around plenty of regret from those days, things she wished she'd never seen or done."

I am just curious as to what she needs to do to atone for her past behavior.

 

Tiershon_Fett: "I think that the people that hate the idea of Lando are basically racist that somehow think that Lando is "unworthy" of some assassin/smuggler."

I don't think he's unworthy, just I think L/M is better, although it's a bit amusing that you're generalizing Mara fans here, hell, even people here over again.. If you want to pull out the race card here go ahead and try it. But before you do, get this: I happen to be black, and God knows how racist I am against my own race.

Thrawn_McEwok: "And are you sure Mara's past is white, or is that just part of the characterization of her present in the novels? Don't we have the comics to be the judge of that?

 

You are correct here. I am pretty sure in HTTE there is a comment that Mara only used a lightsaber a half dozen times in her life. I am going through the book now in order to find the quote.

If I am correct, then there is a big discrepancy in her ability with the lightsaber, because in the Mara Jade comic, which takes place prior to HTTE, she is seen using the lightsaber like a pro.

And so began Zahn's retcons. Mara got popular, so he began to up her importance and her abilities, but at the same time, making sure she could have it both ways by saying she was never dark, did everything for unselfish reasons, was ultimately doing good for the galaxy, etc.

I do not believe that even the most rabid Mara fan thinks she is an angel.

Read Tramp's posts.

I think most of her fans see her as a flawed individual.

Too bad no one in the books does.

I want to emphasis the word "Most". You are always going to run into the occasional eccentric who believes in things counter to what is written.

As for accountability, what do you think Mara should do to account for her past?

She is already regretful for her actions as the Emperor's hand.

She displays some regret in a book that takes place before the NJO but was written after. In the NJO, she apparently thinks she filled her guilt quota, because she goes around like her you-know-what doesn't stink, and feels free to blast everyone else for their mistakes.

In Balance Point we find Mara thinking about the days when she was the Emperor's Hand. The following is written:

"She carried around plenty of regret from those days, things she wished she'd never seen or done."

Then it goes on to say that she's made her peace with it, by "sacrificing" her ship (which got replaced in six months). So I guess her regret could be assuaged by the "sacrifice" of an inanimate object -- one she mourned heavily, as opposed to her complete lack of grief over her nephew. Besides which, this again points to her thinking she's filled her guilt quota, and can now go around like her slate is clean.

I am just curious as to what she needs to do to atone for her past behavior.

I've listed what I think she should do many times, but a quick rundown:

A massive attitude overhaul. She needs to feel and display gratitude for all she has. We've read several times how grateful the other characters are that Mara has graced their lives, never mind that they've given her far more than she's given them. She needs to act more respectful of Leia, who has more than earned it and who is always respectful to her, even in the face of Mara's nasty words. She needs to feel shame for how she acted toward Leia in SbS, not to mention, reassess her criticisms of Leia's mothering in light of the fact that she did the exact same thing with her own child, and also, feel shame for how she called Leia "delusional" behind her back for believing, correctly, that Jacen was still alive.

Mara should also realize that the galaxy does not revolve around her, that she cannot always get what she wants, that she is not the ultimate martyr who has lost so much more than everyone else, that she is very lucky to have been accepted so unquestioningly into the Skywalker/Solo clan. Also, she needs to learn how to keep her mouth shut and be more considerate of other people's feelings, and that she does not know everything -- that, in fact, she knows very little.

 

I don't think he's unworthy, just I think L/M is better, although it's a bit amusing that you're generalizing Mara fans here, hell, even people here over again.. If you want to pull out the race card here go ahead and try it. But before you do, get this: I happen to be black, and God knows how racist I am against my own race

Why can't you acknowledge that a 40 year old woman who's supposed to be so beautiful, has never had a relationship? I mean, it's so unrealistic.

And by "people" I meant, things that I have heard over the years.

Before Snowball, or whatever, took over these boards, it was much more uncensored and there was a whole thread on Lando and Mara and the above subject. Maybe it was threads like that that prompted TFN to switch. Because it wasn't very complimentary, but it did always stick out in my mind.

I also don't like the way Lando has always been portrayed as sleazy, somehow. He was never that sleazy. He was a gambler, and he, like Han, gave up that past, to become a more productive member of society. In later books, he is like some chisler. I don't agree with that image. He's an attractive, successful man. Mara is not better than him. I get so tired of the notion that Mara is supposed to be better than anyone. She is not better, but less of a good person than the characters that bravely fought the Empire she supported.

And her retcons are annoying. And why IS it called a retcon? It is an absolute contradiction.

 

Shelley: "Besides which, this again points to her thinking she's filled her guilt quota, and can now go around like her slate is clean. "
I really wish that life was as simple as "Do this many good deeds, or feel sorry this many times, and you will be redeemed. I really wish that things were that simple. I know those who actually do think that its that simple. Fact is, it isn't. Wallowing in the past isn't going to solve anything and its not going to even give the appearance of resolvement. Only someone who really knows little would bother being in a constant state of guilt that can only be referred to as the self pity that you so detest. Mara knows enough to actually start being productive, rather than being sad. It's then that you make a positive difference to being canceling the negatives.

 

Hi, Shelley, I missed you this weekend. I went almost the whole weekend without somebody telling me how wrong I am.

Shelley Then it goes on to say that she's made her peace with it, by "sacrificing" her ship (which got replaced in six months).

Damn, you are good Shelley. I did not mention that because I even thought that was lame. CURSE YOU, Shelley!! CURSE YOU!!!

 

Shelley and Tiershon_Fett

Well said

 

Tiershon_Fett:
And by "people" I meant, things that I have heard over the years.

Before Snowball, or whatever, took over these boards, it was much more uncensored and there was a whole thread on Lando and Mara and the above subject. Maybe it was threads like that that prompted TFN to switch. Because it wasn't very complimentary, but it did always stick out in my mind.

Maybe that's what you meant. But that's not what you said. You said: "I think that the people that hate the idea of Lando are basically racist that somehow think that Lando is "unworthy" of some assassin/smuggler. "

You did not say, "I think that some of the people" or "I think that many of the people" or "I think that most of the people", you said THE people. As in the group as a whole. Not only was your generalization grossly incorrect, but it was vague as well. But you intention was not to generalize, hmm? Your intention was to convey something different than you originally had. So you came back a post later and amended that one, saying "things you heard over the years."

Tiershon, you just retconned yourself.

 

You sure like picking knits, don't you?

 

Picking knits isn't exactly how I'd describe the latest theme of my argument...I thought it would be obvious by now. In any case, my point is still valid, illustrated yourself, with this:

Tiershon_Fett: (someone else's question)So retcons should never happen?

Nope!

What about the "evil" of retcons?

"Retcons are lies that take the place of imagination, and conviction."

I think I've proved my point.

 

Is there a [face_chip_on_shoulder] gif yet?

 

You should be more concerned with finding a [face_owned] gif.

 

Whatever. Your teen angst crap does nothing for me.

It's my opinion.

If you are black and you think me defending a black man is racist, than you must be awfully confused.

I don't believe in "ownership". Neither should you.