Mara Jade and the Dark Side

This idea came up when I was reading some people's ideas in another thread--someone else said something about Mara being a " former Dark Side Imperial murderer". Another person counters with:

"She wasn't a Dark Side murderer; she was an assassin, yes, but a state-sponsored assassin is not the same thing as a murderer; and it's clear in Mara Jade: By The Emperor's Hand that Palpatine intentionally kept her from becoming a full Darksider as part of an experiment. When she was lecturing Luke, he needed a lecturing; even *I* could have told him the things she was telling him. That wasn't Zahn's fault; that was the fault of other authors who'd used the Force as a crutch in other books."

Here's my thoughts on the matter:

yes, she was a state-sponsored assassin--she was also a murderer, in the simplest definition of the word. HOWEVER, you have to remember that by the time Vision came around, she had gotten rid of her own specter.. what, about 25 years before? And that's the Emperor's last command that she ridded herself of, it was at least 30 years before that she was actively "murdering" in the name of the Emperor.

However, I don't think that Mara was intentionally prevented from coming to the dark side. Of course, the dark side is a little complicated: the way Zhan explains it, Mara was never on the dark side; however, in the movies it is explained as the WAY one reaches the Force's energy--through anger and fear or through peace. It could be both--You cannot have the peace inside yourself that is necessary to tap into the light side when you intend to do evil and destruction, and you cannot use the force through anger with good intentions.

But then Mara slips through the crack. If the Emperor taught her, it stands to reason that he taught her to tap in using her anger--but then, as Luke explains, her intention was to serve, not to destroy. If she had any kind of personal stake in it, and her anger was used for destruction instead of servitude, she would have been using the dark side. Since (at least for most of her work) it was used for something related to the light side, Luke says that she was NOT in fact on the dark side at all. This makes sense, in context.

So did the Emperor deliberately prevent Mara from going to the dark side "as part of an experiment?" I havent' read the mentioned "Mara Jade: By The Emperor's Hand"... google search indicates it's a.. comic book series? -.O how SW has degraded.. alrite, i gotta go now.. any thoughts?

 

Either you belive Zhan and the Comics by Stackpole or you don't.

Largely many don't because they don't like the character or Mara, think she's overrated, or simply don't like the idea you can work for the Empire/Emperor and not be corrupted by it.

Pellaeon himself is a former slaver

 

She worked for an evil killer of billions. She was evil, a darksider, and a liar. And an arrogant snob that thinks she's knows everything when her ifgnorance repeatedly shows.

Her victims were innocent. She ruined lives. She deserves to be punished.

Why Luke settled for that trashy, graceless, heartless, stingy, cheap, selfish sow is beyond me.

 

Because he loves his father? Evil and all?

Meh.

Love crosses odd paths

 

Mara was definitely tainted by her work. She is kind of like the reverse of Quinlan vos. quin started off good and slowly tunred to the dark side. He also felt like he was doing the right thing. MAra starts off dark and then becomes good.

 

I havent' read the mentioned "Mara Jade: By The Emperor's Hand"... google search indicates it's a.. comic book series? -.O how SW has degraded.. alrite, i gotta go now.. any thoughts?

Are you saying comics have no place in SW literature? That it's is degrading centuries of visual story telling, which predates the written word as it is known now.

 

At least Anakin was tortured and had some sense of like honor. Mara is just floozy all the way. She strikes me like her underwear stinks. She just seems dirty to me. Not in a sexy way, but in a trailer trash way.

Of course, in the EU Luke doesn't love his ffather at all, he HATES him. Just another way the EU loves to rewrite what we've literally seen with our eyes.

 

"Are you saying comics have no place in SW literature? That it's is degrading centuries of visual story telling, which predates the written word as it is known now."

No, I'm just saying that I don't prefer that medium; I think it's a bizarre cross between movies and novels which cuts out the best of each medium, but that's just my opinion...

"At least Anakin was tortured and had some sense of like honor. Mara is just floozy all the way. She strikes me like her underwear stinks. She just seems dirty to me. Not in a sexy way, but in a trailer trash way.

Of course, in the EU Luke doesn't love his ffather at all, he HATES him. Just another way the EU loves to rewrite what we've literally seen with our eyes."

Would you plez back up the latter two statements? The first paragraph doesn't even warrant that much...

 

Tiershon, you forgot the last part of your post: "... and I base this on absolutely nothing."

Nowhere in the EU does it portray Luke as having anything but love and forgiveness for his father. And obviously you don't read much of the stuff about Mara, because she did and does have a sense of honor. You have reached the point where you have transcended factual justification for your dislike of her and are now firmly in the realm of "making stuff up".

 

>No, I'm just saying that I don't prefer that medium; I think it's a bizarre cross between movies and novels which cuts out the best of each medium, but that's just my opinion... <
Someones never read a Jan + John comic.

 

I don't believe all people Mara killed were evil. And she wasn't a complete dark sider, she would never think about overthrowing Palpatine like many others did, she obeyed him without question. And she might have been evil but she didn't know any better and she redeemed herself so what's the problem.

 

synthwrr:

yes, she was a state-sponsored assassin--she was also a murderer, in the simplest definition of the word. HOWEVER, you have to remember that by the time Vision came around, she had gotten rid of her own specter.. what, about 25 years before? And that's the Emperor's last command that she ridded herself of, it was at least 30 years before that she was actively "murdering" in the name of the Emperor.

Exactly. However, I would say that, since murder is essentially illegal killing, she wasn't a murderer because her activities were sanctioned by the state.

However, I don't think that Mara was intentionally prevented from coming to the dark side. Of course, the dark side is a little complicated: the way Zhan explains it, Mara was never on the dark side; however, in the movies it is explained as the WAY one reaches the Force's energy--through anger and fear or through peace. It could be both--You cannot have the peace inside yourself that is necessary to tap into the light side when you intend to do evil and destruction, and you cannot use the force through anger with good intentions.

Here's an excerpt from Vader's and Palpy's discussion of Mara while they observe her training:

Vader: "Ah. so she is a Jedi?"
Palpy: "Not precisely. But nor is she a Dark Jedi. She is, shall we say, an experiment."

Later:

V: You are right, my Master. Neither light nor dark. An interesting experiment indeed."

But then Mara slips through the crack. If the Emperor taught her, it stands to reason that he taught her to tap in using her anger--but then, as Luke explains, her intention was to serve, not to destroy. If she had any kind of personal stake in it, and her anger was used for destruction instead of servitude, she would have been using the dark side. Since (at least for most of her work) it was used for something related to the light side, Luke says that she was NOT in fact on the dark side at all. This makes sense, in context.

My guess is, out of all of his Dark Side Adepts, Mara was the only one he *didn't* teach to tap into her anger to fulfill her purpose. That was the thrust of his experiment.

So did the Emperor deliberately prevent Mara from going to the dark side "as part of an experiment?" I havent' read the mentioned "Mara Jade: By The Emperor's Hand"... google search indicates it's a.. comic book series? -.O how SW has degraded.. alrite, i gotta go now.. any thoughts?

My thoughts are listed above. Yes, it's a comic book series, and a fairly good one, too.

No, I'm just saying that I don't prefer that medium; I think it's a bizarre cross between movies and novels which cuts out the best of each medium, but that's just my opinion...

Fair enough. Still, there are advantages to the medium; I think Union was better told as a comic than a novel, for instance.

Charlemagne19:

Pellaeon himself is a former slaver

To be fair, we know he worked on a slave ship; doesn't mean he was necessarily a slaver (he could have been piloting, or even been the cook for all we know).

Certainly doesn't absolve him, but Pellaeon's come a long way from his quite orthodox Imperial beginnings.

 

Seriously, I think the most simple explanation is that Mara never accessed Light or Dark energies - instead only relying on the "neutral" powers, like telekinesis, affect mind, and ability enhancement.

Those of which listed have been shown by numerous sources to derive from neither "light" or "Dark", but balanced out by both polarities. Mara simply never used any comepletely Dark or Light powers, like Lightning (which requires harnessed anger and hate to be used) or Force Light(pure Light Side energy).

-Blithe

 

like Lightning (which requires harnessed anger and hate to be used)

coughplokooncough

 

Plo was an idiot.

His Justice Bolts are a joke.

 

"Electric Judgement". And they were Force Lightning. Throwing a nice wrench into the "Force Lightning is evil" belief.

 

and its a dark side power.

Plo is using the Dark Side to attack.

 

Care to elaborate?

What is the Dark Side? Why is creating electricity of darkness? Why is it impossible to summon it out of the light? Or out of calm and in defense?

 

Seriously, I think the most simple explanation is that Mara never accessed Light or Dark energies - instead only relying on the "neutral" powers, like telekinesis, affect mind, and ability enhancement.

Those of which listed have been shown by numerous sources to derive from neither "light" or "Dark", but balanced out by both polarities. Mara simply never used any comepletely Dark or Light powers, like Lightning (which requires harnessed anger and hate to be used) or Force Light(pure Light Side energy).

Wrong. She was CLEARLY trained in Telekinetic Kill (aka Force Grip) which is only a Dark Side power. For proof: see Dark Force Rising.

Thus, your theory, does not fit with Occam's Razor.

What is the Dark Side? Why is creating electricity of darkness? Why is it impossible to summon it out of the light? Or out of calm and in defense?

Force Lightning is used by intentionally distorting the Force with anger and rage to generate lightning. To do it as ACTUAL lightning require Dathomiri training, singing and still is of the Dark Side if used on another sentient being. So yes, to answer your question: it is impossible to generate Force Lightning from calm and in defense.

 

Wrong. She was CLEARLY trained in Telekinetic Kill (aka Force Grip) which is only a Dark Side power. For proof: see Dark Force Rising.

Only partially right. Anakin uses Force choke in Last Stand on Jabiim. He was never trained in it. Why is Mara choking Thrawn any different. You have no proof either way.

Force Lightning is used by intentionally distorting the Force with anger and rage to generate lightning. To do it as ACTUAL lightning require Dathomiri training, singing and still is of the Dark Side if used on another sentient being. So yes, to answer your question: it is impossible to generate Force Lightning from calm and in defense.

Do you have proof? Dathomiri witches are just Force users AFAIK. Spells can be eliminated from the equation.

And no one has answered my question. What makes it impossible to use the light side of the Force to generate electricity?

 

Only partially right. Anakin uses Force choke in Last Stand on Jabiim. He was never trained in it. Why is Mara choking Thrawn any different. You have no proof either way.

Please see: The Dark Force Rising Sourcebook, the The Last Command Sourcebook and (I believe) both the Dark Side Sourcebook and the Revised Core Rulebook for proof. At the very least, at the times the books were published it was canonical fact that she was, in fact, trained in it. I, at least, HAVE proof to fall back upon unlike you -- who don't.

Do you have proof? Dathomiri witches are just Force users AFAIK. Spells can be eliminated from the equation.

And no one has answered my question. What makes it impossible to use the light side of the Force to generate electricity?

I'm glad you asked! Of COURSE I have proof. The book "Alliance Intelligence Reports" details the exact differences between the Dathomiri "Song of Electricity" and regular Force Lightning while still including the caveat that using it on a living being for any reason brings you closer to the Dark Side. So, again, dp4m 2, rogue_wookiee 0 in the proof department.

The generation of *electricity* itself might be possible to generate via the Light Side ("Song of Electricity" is by itself a neutral power unto itself), but the instant you use that electricity on someone else... you're taking your steps into the Dark. Force Lightning is not possible without actively channeling the Dark Side, of course.

 

Please see: The Dark Force Rising Sourcebook, the The Last Command Sourcebook and (I believe) both the Dark Side Sourcebook and the Revised Core Rulebook for proof. At the very least, at the times the books were published it was canonical fact that she was, in fact, trained in it. I, at least, HAVE proof to fall back upon unlike you -- who don't.

I don't have access to any sourcebook save Coruscant and the Core Worlds. Care to give a quote that says she was trained? Because as far as DFR is concerned she was no more trained in the Dark Side than Anakin was at Jabiim.

I'm glad you asked! Of COURSE I have proof. The book "Alliance Intelligence Reports" details the exact differences between the Dathomiri "Song of Electricity" and regular Force Lightning while still including the caveat that using it on a living being for any reason brings you closer to the Dark Side. So, again, dp4m 2, rogue_wookiee 0 in the proof department.

OK.

The generation of *electricity* itself might be possible to generate via the Light Side ("Song of Electricity" is by itself a neutral power unto itself), but the instant you use that electricity on someone else... you're taking your steps into the Dark. Force Lightning is not possible without actively channeling the Dark Side, of course.

Exactly. And who says what Koon uses is Force Lightning and not just Force generated electricity? (and generating electricity isn't evil. Unless you want to declare the Falcon's generator a fountain of Dark Side energy.) I must say I personally disagree on what is the Dark Side from WEG and WotC but that's just personal philosophy and has no place in this thread.

Have I mentioned I hate RPG sourcebooks? (unless they are just planets or aliens)

 

I don't have access to any sourcebook save Coruscant and the Core Worlds. Care to give a quote that says she was trained? Because as far as DFR is concerned she was no more trained in the Dark Side than Anakin was at Jabiim.

[Han]I don't have the book WITH me...[/Han]. Seriously, I'm at work today. From 3 pm 'til 8 am. But, if you will, trust me that it says in (for the sake of argument) at least the Dark Force Rising sourcebook and the The Last Command sourcebook that under Mara's Alter Force skills she is trained in "Telekinetic Kill," which was what Force Grip was called back then (the example given for the power is "Apology accepted, Captain Needa...").

The skill was changed to Force Grip in the new d20 system and (I believe) did not require "training" (much like Force Lightning doesn't) as the theory was that the Dark Side beckoned the quick and easy path for most of its easier powers...

However, Anakin took quite the shining to the skill as Darth Vader has a +15 skill in Force Grip.

Exactly. And who says what Koon uses is Force Lightning and not just Force generated electricity? (and generating electricity isn't evil. Unless you want to declare the Falcon's generator a fountain of Dark Side energy.) I must say I personally disagree on what is the Dark Side from WEG and WotC but that's just personal philosophy and has no place in this thread.

Have I mentioned I hate RPG sourcebooks? (unless they are just planets or aliens)

There is some theory as to whether Koon was using some power called "Bolt of Judgment" which is a different power, but I believe that was debunked in a Gamer magazine as being only his justification for his using of Force Lightning and his position was shunned on the Jedi Council. I would need Val to back me up on that one though, as I don't have the Gamer magazine in question.

 

Sure. I'm at work too. My internet is down at home so if you post a quote don't take it personally if it is a few days before I get back to you.