Mary Sue & Star Wars

Shelley, instead of shouting "OMG balance point barbie doll!" over and over, how about quoting CHAPTER AND VERSE, please.

Else one might think you are being less than rational in your analysis.

 

Actually it's the comic books that show as having an enormous rack. Esp the HTTE comic, with the infamous (and only item in her closet) vinyl tank catsuit, where as someone once said, Mara needed to walk on all fours with those proportions.

Like this Dolly Parton-inspired nonsense. I thought assassin were supposed to blend in. How can THIS "blend in"?? Yeah, high spike heeled boots in the desert. How very practical.

http://www.m-moeslund.dk/otherstuff/drawings/marajade.jpg

Or this, soft porn (no wonder I associate Mara with "ass" so much):

http://www.freewebs.com/captianjade/MJ2.jpg

She's supposed to up to 55 in all these pictures. Believe it has never happened unless Mara isn't human, which to me is more believeable. It would explain a lot.

All people think of is the Mara we saw from HTTE, and never see her depicted any other way. Not even a change of clothes, in 35 years? Let's get real.
It's so ridiculous, I can't even understand it. It's like you taking a picture in college and 35 years later having everyone think, "Oh, so and so is 55 and they still look they're in college!" No, moron, they DON'T.
But tell that to these Japanese cover artists. Japanese guys don't think anyone of legal age is hot. See their polls on the hottest women: they are all about 12 years old.

Please take this foolishness into consideration, and quit putting your disturbing playboy fanatasies on an senoir citizen like Mara.

I do have to say, I have never read anywhere that Leia is "saggy". It states that she has "warm eyes" with crows feet when she smiles, and that Tahiri thought they took up her whole presence and were her most outstanding feature, that otherwise she was very petite and tiny, like Jaina. I think anyone, even the young ones looked haggard and sick, after fighting and fleeing so much. Worry and stress can make a ten year old looked peaked and old.

 

Not dolls, woman, action figures!

 

A lot of the early comics, and some modern ones, show Princess Leia with an overlarge rack...

 

Well spotted.

 

True, but no one else seemed all that feaful of him either.

Define "no one else." Because the only times we see him are with the Kaminoans (who have been with him for quite some time), scenes with Kenobi, and then with Dooku on Geonosis when all the Jedi come in. So that means the people you can infer that were not fearful of him were: the Kaminoans who knew him very, very well, Kenobi, Tyranus who also knew him well, and a bunch of Jedi.

And I was talking about him being regarded as the greatest bounty hunter, building up that Fett reputation. You can find the supporting facts for that on the Official Site's Databank entry for Jango and in playing the Bounty Hunter video game. Both like I said before.

Well, a video game is a bit different from a book. A video game is by its very nature going to exaggerate and glorify things, for the purpose of making the game fun.

But the comments in cut scenes can be taken as canonical in-universe statements.

Yes, but I thought your point was that they were thinking he was such a great person to clone.

I was using them sarcastically to portray the general reasoning that Jango was picked to be the template (which, if you want to be detailed, Dooku actually outlined when he was recruiting Jango).

Then why is Kyp portrayed as more powerful than Luke?

He isn't.

Kyp Durron has never showed power on the scale of Luke Skywalker. The only comments that ever were definitely "Kyp > Luke" in terms of power was written in Kyp's point of view, per Allston, who wrote the kriffin' book.

Now I'm sure you'll bring up the whole singularity argument, but take a look a what Luke was doing beforehand to become exhausted. Kyp, as much as I love his character, probably would have passed out just after doing that much before the singularity.

Odd that everyone except the Big Three has it.

That's what makes them the Big Three-- selfless heroes that stand above all the rest.

In Mara, you get both elements. She's completely and utterly unrealistic and also extremely arrogant. Same with Kyp.

Kyp and Mara may both be arrogant, but that trait alone makes them realistic.

What are you talking about? It's extremely deliberate. Tyers was the most obvious about it, but the other authors contributed their share.

Ahem. Let me reiterate my statement.

You might see them that way, but I don't think it's deliberate.

It's all a matter of interpretation. Your opinion is that it's deliberate ("you might see them that way"), but my opinion is that it's not ("I don't think it's deliberate").

So that's a difference of opinion right there, in how we both see things. End of story.

No, it's just like: "Mara's beautiful red-gold hair" and "Mara's complexion, more radiant than when Luke met her" and "Mara's beauty made Luke's throat close," while at the same time, it's "Leia's gray hair and wrinkled face" and "Leia's sagging, tired figure."

And I'll reiterate: "I mean, it's not like it's "Mara Jade walks into a room glittering with smooth skin and youth...the saggy-breasted Leia right behind."

You said "at the same time"-- it's not at the same time. Maybe in the same book, but it's not a deliberate comparison between the two like you were trying to say.

They are famous, but they aren't movie stars. They're knights. It isn't their job to "look good," it's their job to protect people.

So, there you have it-- a potential flaw in Mara's character. Not in her characterization, but actually in her character-- her need to look good in the spotlight as opposed to people like Luke and Leia.

Except it's not portrayed that way. She's portrayed as having no flaws at all, or more precisely, she has them, and plenty of them, but the other characters don't notice.

Perhaps they don't notice because they're better people, eh? I mean, except for a few folks like Han, Kyp, and Jaina (who was actually about to tell Mara off in TJK), you're not going to get many people

 

Mara definetly has alot of Mary Sue-ish qualities...

I think one of the funniest lines I remember reading was when someone calld her a Nimbo, half Ninja, half sexed up bimbo. Sure she is a great figher and strong willed and all. Sure she is described as being beautiful multiple times. In fact, I don't think Shannon Braska is up to task for modeling for Mara, heh. Couldn't they find someone better looking???

And yet I still like her alot, a hell of alot better than Callista, and I am glad she got together with Luke

I also think she does have her flaws as well, but I don't really feel like arguing them out.

Overall, I think she has made a fine addition to the EU.

 

Im pretty sure thats fanrt, in which case that doesnt do anything to prove your point. Fanart and fanon dont prove anything to do with continuity.

 

Yes, I'm quite sure Mara is the only female character ever to be depicted in the history of comics as having T&A.

 

realaining on comic book art is chancy and unrealiable at best,because of artist interpatation, ie borseks many differant faces,its better to go with novel quotes.

 

Re: Leia's "overlarge rack" -- Leia is fairly busty to begin with. Mara started out with a slim dancer's body. Dancers don't usually have big boobs, unless the boobs aren't real, because dancers basically exercise away all their excess body fat.

But if he's so fearsome, why aren't they just a bit nervous around him? Sure, they've been around him a while, but so what? He's still a bounty hunter.

Except that, just as with Thrawn, there doesn't seem to be any supporting evidence of how great he was.

You mean cut scenes from the movies? If so, sure. The movies are the highest level of canon.

But the Kaminoans didn't pick him. Dooku came to them with Dooku, and Sifo Diyas ordered the clone army.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

How convenient. The Big Three stand above all the rest but get the least credit and respect.

How so?

Fair enough.

Yes it is. Why have it at all if it's not a deliberate comparison?

Once again, convenient. Mara has a flaw but no one notices it. Luke and Leia are noble but get no credit for it -- most of the time they're too busy fawning over Mara anyway.

But they don't have any problem noticing each other's flaws. Once again, convenient. No one notices Mara's flaws, but everyone notices Luke's, Leia's, and Han's.

 

Re: Leia's "overlarge rack" -- Leia is fairly busty to begin with. Mara started out with a slim dancer's body. Dancers don't usually have big boobs, unless the boobs aren't real, because dancers basically exercise away all their excess body fat.

You're missing the point. Comics tend to oversize the boobs of female characters in general. Period.

 

I've known a lot of girls, and yet I don't consider any of them "Mary Sues" because they are hot.

 

Oh man, Luke looks like Jodie Foster.


It reminds me of that one fic our own AG88 wrote where Luke admits his feelings for Mara, she admits she is lesbian, and then Luke has a sex-change opperation and they end up together.

 

Of course comics book chicks have big boobs.
The majority of people who read them are men. The majority of people wo write them: men. The majority of people who draw them: men. The majority of people inking them: men. Do we see a pattern here?

Still the Mary sue needs to die. I like whoever said that Luke should be a single dad. Excellent idea.

 

But if he's so fearsome, why aren't they just a bit nervous around him? Sure, they've been around him a while, but so what? He's still a bounty hunter.

What have they to fear from him? He lives in their estate by their rules, they pay him (Apart from his pay, which is considerable...), and if anything goes wrong they have an entire clone army at their disposable. Not that they should even think anything would go wrong-- they obviously allow him to leave at will, and the man was hand-picked to be the clone template by the man who ordered the clone army (at least in their minds-- we know Sifo-Dyas ordered the army and Dooku hand-picked Jango, but the Kaminoans assumed Jango was also picked by Sifo-Dyas: "We felt a Jedi would be the perfect choice, but Sifo-Dyas hand-picked Jango Fett himself.)

Except that, just as with Thrawn, there doesn't seem to be any supporting evidence of how great he was.

Ahem. Let me repeat what I just said:

You can find the supporting facts for that on the Official Site's Databank entry for Jango and in playing the Bounty Hunter video game. Both like I said before.

But the Kaminoans didn't pick him. Dooku came to them with Dooku, and Sifo Diyas ordered the clone army.

I think you were trying to say "Dooku came to them with Jango."

And yes, that's exactly the case (heck, I kriffin' provided a quote from the movie on that issue above and described that in the statement you were responding to).

Now let me repeat myself again for you...

I was using them sarcastically to portray the general reasoning that Jango was picked to be the template (which, if you want to be detailed, Dooku actually outlined when he was recruiting Jango).

Maybe pay a little more attention next time.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

On the interpretation of Kyp's portrayal, I suppose. But go to Allston's webstie-- he explicitly says that it was only from Kyp's point of view that those comments were coming from. Other than that, it's all about your perception of on his characterization, because there's no more definitive in-universe statements like that.

How convenient. The Big Three stand above all the rest but get the least credit and respect.

They hardly get the least credit and respect. Leia was Chief of State and is still the default woman to go to in a political crisis, not to mention her fame from the Rebel Alliance and as a princess. Han Solo is known all over the place (just look at Jae Juun's character), and so is Luke-- Luke, who all the Masters in the Order look up to, who Cal Omas has to try and get ahold of for Jedi matters. Luke, the guy who opens his mouth and everyone else shuts up. And it's going to be useless to argue that matter, because you're going to spew out some obscure crap about Mara being listed first one time when the other Big Three walked into the room with her. We'll have to "agree to disagree" here, I suppose.

How so?

What, you've never met anyone in your life that was arrogant?

Arrogance is a typical and very common human trait among those with special abilities (you know, like having Force powers?), and it's realistic that some characters would carry that trait (and don't start giving me that "everyone but Luke is arrogant!11!!" thing, because Tionne is not arrogant)

Yes it is. Why have it at all if it's not a deliberate comparison?

It's called description.

When they describe the Falcon and then describe Juun's ship later on it's not a deliberate comparison. It's description. Big difference.

Once again, convenient. Mara has a flaw but no one notices it. Luke and Leia are noble but get no credit for it -- most of the time they're too busy fawning over Mara anyway.

You'd be hard-pressed to pick up a post-RotJ EU book and not find something about Leia's nobility/poise in it.

But they don't have any problem noticing each other's flaws. Once again, convenient. No on

 

"All people think of is the Mara we saw from HTTE, and never see her depicted any other way. Not even a change of clothes, in 35 years? Let's get real."

It's pretty normal, especially for comic characters. I don't see Superman changing his uniform perminantly.

 

Gotta agree with that. That's one of the reasons why I feel such distaste for anime and manga.

Jan Duursema doesn't seem to skimp on Aayla's "assets" (so to speak) too much.

 

That's like saying you don't like milk because the caps are blue.

 

Same here. I had a teacher once who liked to go on long tirades about that even when it was entirely off the subject.

 

^^^
Wow, just wow.

So, how many of ya'll play KOTOR in Mary Sue mode? If you don't, how within the confines of the game do you avoid it? Me, I generally play it as a good person who sometimes does bad things or vice versa.

 

That he's a bounty hunter and bound to no one, and could and would sell them out if it met his needs?

That's what I was referring to, Ken. That it's said in the Databank how great he was but we don't see it. As for the video game, I will repeat myself too: it's exaggerated to make it fun.

Yes, I did, thanks for catching the error. I need to proofreed a little more.

I was paying attention, Ken. It seemed to me like you were saying elsewhere that the Kaminoans chose him because he was such a great source for clones, when in fact Dooku recruited him.

So what an author says on his or her website is "canon"? I wonder why what Lucas says about his own story isn't, then -- why EU authors are freely allowed to override him, such as with the "No Dark Side" issue.

Especially if you want someone to abuse/blame.

All of which was mysteriously forgotten circa the NJO, at which point she became a "former diplomat," an object of derision for just about everyone (particularly Jaina), and "half-trained and uncertain in the Force."

And he's still thought of with derision as a former smuggler. See the beginning of TJK.

(Odd how Mara's smuggling past is swept under the rug.)

You're joking, right?

Not Mara, or Kyp, or, it appears, any of his Jedi Order.

Uh...yeah.

Few that were as arrogant as Mara or Kyp, and none that anyone could stand for more than six minutes, as opposed to the sheer adoration that Mara, and to a lesser extent Kyp, get.

And once again, I say, it's convenient that Mara and Kyp can be arrogant and it's just a character flaw, albeit one no one in the books appears to notice, whereas the movie characters are "bigger people" but get all the derision.

It's called deliberate co

 

Just a couple of things, since this is really getting nowhere (if you'd really like, I could respond to all your "derision" and "boinking" crap, but it's always going to end with "agree to disagree" considering it's all perception without any definitive statements-- just so you don't think I'm slighting you because I didn't respond line by line)...

That he's a bounty hunter and bound to no one, and could and would sell them out if it met his needs?

And I'll say it again: he lives there with them, they pay him, and if anything goes wrong they have an entire clone army at their disposal. They have nothing to fear from him, especially since there's nothing that implies that they don't trust him.

That's what I was referring to, Ken. That it's said in the Databank how great he was but we don't see it. As for the video game, I will repeat myself too: it's exaggerated to make it fun.

The Databank is an objective canonical source that uses the supporting facts from things like Open Seasons and the video game as the basis for its statements. If you don't take a particular liking to it because it's "exaggerated", that's fine-- but it's still canon. Especially the cut scenes that have nothing to do with game mechanics.

I was paying attention, Ken.

You could've fooled me. In fact, you did.

It seemed to me like you were saying elsewhere that the Kaminoans chose him because he was such a great source for clones, when in fact Dooku recruited him.

And I clarified after you questioned that by saying that I was being saracastic with the Kaminoans there. I think it's settled that we both know Dooku recruited Jango.

So what an author says on his or her website is "canon"? I wonder why what Lucas says about his own story isn't, then -- why EU authors are freely allowed to override him, such as with the "No Dark Side" issue

1.) Allston's comments were meant to clarify the text he wrote, which is canon.

2.) For the love of the Force, don't bring the whole Nature of the Force issue into this discussion.

Especially if you want someone to abuse/blame.

As well as if you need someone to dig you out of a hole you dug yourself into.

It's called deliberate comparison.

No, it's not. Please go back up and read what I wrote, thank you very much.

It is if they were saying how much better, faster, etc. Juun's ship was, in a book full of worship of Juun's ship and derision of the Falcon.

No, you didn't get it. Let me say it again.

When they describe the Falcon and then describe Juun's ship later on it's not a deliberate comparison. It's description. Big difference.

Same as when they describe Mara and then describe Leia later on it's not a deliberate comparison. It's description. Big difference.

If you don't understand that I don't think we have much else to talk about.

I picked up many, including the supposedly "better than the movies" Thrawn Trilogy. And that's not even going into the NJO.

There are still references to Leia's poise/nobility in the NJO and such. Most of the time she was referred to as "Princess" by other people she came into contact with.

Odd how Mara is never affected by this self-doubt. I guess since she crashed her ship, she thinks she doesn't have anything to feel guilty about.

Maybe because it's much better for the storyline to have Leia thinking about her role in the fledging New Republic than it is to have Mara thinking about her previous exploits?

It fit in nicely with the

Huh?

When? Was it after Anakin's death, when Mara chewed her out for losing Ben, or when she completely ignored her and couldn't have cared less about her pain and grief, instead fretting over how said pain and grief might (horror of horrors!) make Ben uncomfortable? Was it when Jacen disappeared and Jaina flirted with the Dark Side, while Mara twiddled her thumbs and got it on with Luke? Was it in "Rebirth," when Mara talked trash about Leia's mothering behind

 

So what an author says on his or her website is "canon"?
Well I imagine it's cannon when they're clarifying a fact from an officially published canonical book.

And he's still thought of with derision as a former smuggler.
This was one incident. An incident where a star wars equivalent of a lawyer of all people is using it to try and discredit Jaina's testimony. Were Mara or Luke on the stand I'm sure the lawyer would've attempted to discredit them in a similar way.

It's called deliberate comparison.
So using your defintion of comparison we can see that Luke is beautiful and healthy and strapping in TJK all because Han's ageing is described in the book.

And the authors are trying like heck to convince the readers that Mara is a main character
Uh...yea. And for that matter they're also trying to convince us that the Solo twins are main characters. Usually the authors also try and convince the readers that other EU characters that are featured prominently in their books and are instrumental in driving the plot along are main characters. But, they're not in the movies, so this is a no-no, right?

an object of derision for just about everyone (particularly Jaina)
Um...you know I've noticed that most teenagers kind of disrespect and hate their parents.
And Jaina started disliking Leia around, gee, sixteen or so.