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Discussions May be a little late to the party, but...

Discussion in 'EU Community' started by adve, Jun 15, 2022.

  1. adve

    adve Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 23, 2016
    ...does anyone else get super irritated at the double standard some Disney Wars fans apply to the EU? I realize it's been a long time now since Rise of Skywalker's release and therefore not as many people are talking about it anymore, but the way diehard Disney Wars defend it really gets under my skin. From what I've seen, there's a big overlap between the group of fans that despise the EU, saying it's better off gone, and the group that defends anything Disney produces, no matter how bad it is. Most people with at least a working knowledge of the EU can agree that the two previous sequel films at least took some inspiration from stuff like Legacy of the Force, but I wouldn't say their borrowing was egregious. At least, not to the level that is TROS. Rise of Skywalker is a blatant, shameless, and complete rip-off of Dark Empire, except without the background and precedent of Sith magic that allowed Dark Empire to at least make some sense. It annoys me to no end how some fans will simultaneously say the EU is better off gone and that Disney's new movies are actually well written. It's like... pick one or the other. Both can't be true, with the amount of copying Disney does.

    I'll even bet my own money that when Disney starts making more material on this new species the "Grysk" (if you aren't familiar: extra galactic species who conquers planets and whom Thrawn wants to keep out for fear of an imminent galactic invasion... sound like anything you know?), the same people who wouldn't shut up about "the NJO sucks", "The Vong don't make any sense!", and "It's just a stupid concept!", will be hailing the new species as "revolutionary", "interesting", and "just what Star Wars needed to break the cycle of Sith and Jedi". Go figure.

    I doubt the people whom I'm referring to will ever venture close to an EU board, so I'll save my breath and not waste this post imploring them to be consistent. Misery loves company, I guess, so does anyone feel the same about this issue?
     
  2. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    I’m gonna allow this as long as it’s civil and doesn’t attack whole groups ad nauseum.

    However.

    As someone who remembers how derogatory people were about the EU pre Disney, I found it almost as annoying when everyone started defending it.

    I was like.

    “Where the sin were you guys before now?” [face_laugh]

    Star Wars, as a production of imperfect humans, is imperfect. Legends, Canon, Infinities, Visions, whatever.

    I know what I love (Darth Caedus, NJO, Abeloth, Ronin, Kenobi, Mandalorian, Ahsoka, Kylo Ren, Super Star Destroyers, Thrawn, The Old Republic MMO, anything Sith), and I know what I’m not really bothered about, and what I really despise is a very small list.

    That’s plenty for me and yes double standards are bothersome. Disney isn’t perfect; Legends isn’t. That’s just a fact.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2022
  3. adve

    adve Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 23, 2016
    Thanks for allowing it. I never intended for it to be a Disney-Canon-Fan hate fest, I just wanted to point out a lot of annoying hypocrisy I see. I myself don't like a lot of stories in the EU, but on the flip side I like exactly zero in Disney Canon. I can't really relate to what you said about people bashing it before the sellout then defending it, because I wasn't into Star Wars at that time. I actually became a Legends fan when it was non-canon, lol. I used to be super bothered about it being non-canon, but now I'm mostly indifferent. Sure, I'd love new content outside of SWTOR, but as long as Disney doesn't cease print of the old EU I'm alright. It being non-canon doesn't stop me from reading it, and Disney Canon being canon doesn't compel me to care one bit about it.
     
  4. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    It being non Canon doesn’t stop me One Canoning everything.

    It’s so fun!
     
  5. The Emotional Jedi

    The Emotional Jedi Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    May 18, 2021
    I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one who's bothered by this behavior. I'm a person who tries to be as consistent as possible, and hypocrisy irritates me. Though luckily I've never met anyone who says Dark Empire is stupid while Rise of Skywalker is good.
     
  6. adve

    adve Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 23, 2016
    Count yourself lucky, then. I've seen it happen too often. They'll hate brigade EU posts that have nothing to do with debating the EU, then turn around and worship the ground JJ abrams walks on.
     
  7. gizkaspice

    gizkaspice Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2013
    There's a lot of things wrong with the EU that to me is stupid and inconsistent and there's a lot of things wrong with Disney stuff that's also stupid and inconsistent, but after Rise of Skywalker, seeing how ridiculous it was and how this was 'the canon' apparently, I stopped caring what 'canon' is and is not and hence to me, both EU and Disney are valid things I can like or aspects of it and those things can exist within both if I want them to.
     
  8. Adalia-Durron

    Adalia-Durron WNU and Costume/Props MOD star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jun 3, 2003
    @Sinrebirth does an incredible job of blending it all together, feel like we've been mashed but it turns out delicious! One game has all new stuff but there I am as Kyp! He makes it work and I've always felt there is room for it all, the galaxy is a massive place. Not just few 'characters', who knows what some of them are doing 'elsewhere'? Star Wars is Star Wars to me, I love it (to varying degrees) all.
     
  9. Irredeemable Fanboy

    Irredeemable Fanboy Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 27, 2020
    I was, like, 7 :p

    The way some people acted about the EU does speak about how you only appreciate what you have when you lose it.

    Personally i think there is a double standard on both sides: I don't get this idea that Palpatine's return somehow ruins "the Chosen One prophecy" or whatever in TROS hence it is unforgivable, yet Dark Empire gets a free pass? Or the reason he came back, in both instances he returned via Sith Magic, Dark Empire made up essence transfer, there was "no prior lore" to speak of, TROS, instead, works in a fictional universe where such things are known about and explored (Darth Momin, prior Legends stories).

    I also dislike that such arguments usually derive in a sort of tribal mindset.

    While i like that the EU is getting more recognition these days, it's sad that, most of the time, it comes from a place of anger and hatred towards the newer material, with the discourse between that and the old EU eclipsing any discussion about the EU material itself.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2022
  10. The Emotional Jedi

    The Emotional Jedi Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    May 18, 2021
    I'm not one of those people who likes to apply double standards to things, however, to be honest, Dark Empire can also be interpreted differently. There are many people who claim that the Palpatine we see in the Dark Empire comics was not the real Palpatine, but simply a mad clone who was gifted with spirit and who could transfer his spirit to other clones, and that inherited Palpatine’s memory and thought he was really Palpatine. If the comics are interpreted in this way, then the Prophecy is safeguarded, because he isn't the real Palpatine, so he isn't a Sith, and therefore the Sith are destroyed by Anakin, just as the Prophecy foretold. Mara Jade herself supported this idea, so there are even in-universe clues that this is true. The difference then lies in the fact that Dark Empire can be interpreted in a way that may not contradict the Prophecy, while Rise of Skywalker doesn't have this loophole, because there is no clue that he wasn't the real Palpatine, on the contrary.
     
  11. Irredeemable Fanboy

    Irredeemable Fanboy Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 27, 2020
    I get what you're saying, but that interpretation goes specifically against what the comic itself shows us and what the official media around Dark Empire established it: that it was really Palpatine's spirit, given we know how long it took him to possess the clone body, how he had to temporarily possess another subordinate (Groga, if i remember correctly), the comics panels show us him using essence transfer to go into a new body more than once:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    The comics make a specific point of Brand containing his spirit, along with all the Jedi of the past that have died, so that Palpatine can never break out of Chaos again, pretty much confirming to us that the Force Ghosts of Anakin, Yoda, Obi-Wan, etc. all acknowledge this Palpatine spirit as the one and only Palpatine that has crossed to the other side, it wouldn't make sense for them to struggle to contain a single Palpatine clone's spirit when there should have been two or three Palpatines with that logic (if you count every time he "definitively" dies without getting directly into another body, meaning he goes to chaos, in ROTJ, DE I issue 6 and Empire's End issue 2).

    It also makes a specific point of the ancient Sith Lords claiming Palpatine will "finally join them" they wouldn't talk like that to a mad clone of the Emperor, but to the Emperor himself.

    The most important part is that the Palpatine clones on Byss had no personality or mind of their own if they weren't possessed, there couldn't have been any madness in the clones' minds because they were nothing but empty shells, just flesh for the spirit to inhabit, they couldn't have any memories of being Palpatine, the memories were never provided to them like they were to, say, Thrawn's clone from HOT, or Joruus C'baoth, how would they go mad and act on memories they don't have.

    Palpatine did experience a mental degradation product of the transition, his growing desperation when coming closer to death, and the experience of having suffered the chaos beyond death two times, it's not the same as clone madness, we know it's not clone madness because there was no memory imprints in those clones.

    The thing about Mara is that she is nowhere near an objective source regarding the subject, she is heavily biased and conflicted when it's about Palpatine's plans and her own importance in them, even after she surpassed his Last Command and left the imperial life behind, but especially before she formally joins the NJO and becomes more stable, she resented him for making her believe she was more important than she really was, we see this in Children of the Jedi, when she refuses to accept that Palpatine had other Hands as well because she hates the idea, since it means her whole life was an even bigger lie.

    Palpatine having secret plans he never told Mara about, and not even bothering to contact her hurt her, so she wants to believe it wasn't the real Palpatine, her own experiences with clones involved a mad clone who believed to be the man he was cloned from (C'baoth) so she uses that as the cop-out, but Luke, you know, the guy that was actually there and fought the Emperor, is convinced he was the real Palpatine, Luke is the one with the closest connection to the situation, and with the least ammount of bias, so his recounting of the events has far more credibility than Mara's, the fact that he doesn't bother to argue if it is the real Palpatine or not in VOTF and the facial expressions by Mara show that while Luke doesn't need to argue one way or another (in spite of being convinced of the truth) Mara does need to argue her case (in spite of not being sure and with limited information), because otherwise she loses her value, in many ways, Palpatine's conditioning traumatized her in ways she could never really shake off.

    So not only it is just a character's opinion, but it is of a character that is heavily biased against DE Palpatine being the real Palpatine for her own subconscious trauma and insecurities, that is not a "clue" or "hint" at DE Palpatine being a mad clone in the slightest, it's a good character moment for Mara at best, and Zahn speaking through his character to diss Dark Empire at worst.

    It should be noted that the author of Dark Empire itself doesn't leave any ambiguity regarding Palpatine's return, and in fact it was George's idea to bring him back (originally they wanted to bring back Vader but George said no), echoing Lucas' original Sequel Trilogy treatments which included a confrontation with Palpatine (before ROTJ was made).

    Regardless of my contentions with the "mad clone" argument, my main issue is: What do you mean that TROS doesn't leave as much leeway as Dark Empire to interpret it certain ways? If anything Dark Empire did more to convince the reader that the Palpatine in the page is the real Palpatine than what the movie did on-screen, and both stories' supplemental material go into detail and solidify his return as not being just a mad clone (which in fact was a theory before the TROS novel dropped, as we didin't have any direct explanations unlike in Dark Empire where it is clear) so both stories have the same slim ammount of ambiguity for anyone to believe a headcanon in which that wasn't the real Palpatine, if you ignore the written material, guidebooks, etc. so i don't get how Dark Empire, the comic itself, is more ambiguous than TROS, if anything it's more explicit about Palpatine's state.

    In my view one can headcanon stuff however one wishes, as long as they are aware some of it might not work with the real continuity, it's fine if you headcanon Palpatine's return in DE to not be real so that it doesn't contradict your interpretation of the Chosen One prophecy, but claiming such a thing is impossible to do with the Canon version and is therefore worse, i find it to be hypocritical.

    Regarding the prophecy itself:

    I personally have a different interpretation of it than "Anakin kills the last Sith, thus eternal Balance in the Force", my way of interpreting it is that Anakin was meant to fix the cosmic balance that Palpatine and Plagueis altered in the Plagueis novel, when they altered the Will of the Force, by killing Palpatine the first time, he shifted that balance back to the natural state, hence why the Light Side always thriumphed even with Palpatine's attempts at returning, it wasn't directly about killing him, but about undoing the damage that he had done on a cosmic scale, he could crawl back from chaos all he needed, but it was only going to get worse for him every time, which is what happened, because the balance was now against him, i also don't see the Balance as something that lasts forever, and that there were many Chosen Ones throughout history (Revan, the Hero of Tython, Anakin, Cade) to confront Dark Siders that altered the natural order in big ways (Vitiate, Sidious, Krayt), with Anakin being the only one born by the Force because it was the result of the biggest attempt on the Force's integrity: Plagueis' act of manipulating the cosmic balance, Anakin was to erase Plagueis and Sidious' cosmic legacy, which he did, until the Force got unbalanced again, in Canon due to Ben Solo's corruption, and in Legends via Darth Krayt's rise to power, hence why Anakin tells Rey that she needs to "bring balance to the Force, as i once did" meaning that the prophecy is being directly validated, only recontextualized in it's true meaning.

    I am aware that my interpretation of the Chosen One is different from what George Lucas says in interviews and behind the scenes material, but it was Lucas' idea to bring back palpatine to begin with, the Chosen One idea was something that he totally made up as he went along, and he was willing to contradict it via the Darth Maul game, so i see no problem with making compromises in order to include the largest ammount of Star Wars material possible under the same mythology.

    And like i said, i have no issue if you want to interpret the prophecy like Lucas describes it, headcanoning out the stuff that contradicts it, that's okay, i just find an issue when one applies unfair standards to judge.

    At the end of the day, both stories can be interpreted in ways that fit almost every view on how the Force works, even when it is not the original intent.
     
  12. The Emotional Jedi

    The Emotional Jedi Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    May 18, 2021
    @Irredeemable Fanboy

    Look, I agree with what you say, I'm not convinced that the mad clone theory works too. In fact, I ignore Dark Empire altogether (as well as all the post-Endor Sith stories) as I think this is the easiest way to make the Prophecy work in the EU. I just said what many people think, it isn't a thought that I share. In fact, I said "Many people claims", and not "I think that...". The mad clone theory doesn't work for me, however I brought it out just to emphasize the fact that Dark Empire can also be interpreted in a way that doesn't contradict the Prophecy, even if I don't agree with that theory myself.

    I also agree with what you said about Mara Jade. The difference, however, consists of the fact that in Legends there is a character who says: "Oh look, he may not have been the real Palpatine", while in Canon there is no one who says that. Regardless of what Mara Jade's motivations may be, the difference is that in the Legends universe someone questions whether he was the real Palpatine, and therefore that in-universe theory can be used as an explanation, while in the Canon universe there's no one who questions the fact that he was the real Palpatine, and therefore, even if you want to say that he wasn't the real Palpatine you have no in-universe holds that can make it easier for you to say that. Anyway, I ignore that passage from VOTF, as it's a reference to Dark Empire, and as I've already said I totally ignore Dark Empire. So It isn't a problem, at list for me.

    As for the Prophecy, I’m with George Lucas and I don't buy the multiple Chosen Ones argument, so I ignore Dark Empire as well as The Rise of Skywalker. For me there's no difference between them.
     
  13. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    I recall Mara and Lumiya didn't recognise the Reborn Emperor as actual Palpatine.

    I certainly do, but Essence Transfer is one of those powers they shouldn't use too much.
     
  14. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Wacky Wednesday Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Tionne also mentions the possibility that it wasn't really him, but just a clone with his memories, in The Essential Guide To The Force.
     
  15. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    The latest sources say his spirit and body were obliterated in TROS, mind you.
     
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  16. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015
    I can accept stories like Rogue One, Rebels, Obi-Wan Kenobi, and The Mandalorian as stories in an alternate universe because they are, in my estimation, done well or fabulously. They all echo the old EU in different ways. And I personally consider Seasons 1 t through 6 of TCW to be part of my head-canon EU, while Season 7 is part of Disney canon. To me, the Sequel Trilogy is just trash that made Dark Empire and Legacy of the Force look better in spite of their flaws. The ST, for me, was a waste of the talent of Daisy Ridley and several other actors. But for me personally, I accept the old Expanded Universe as going well with the first six Star Wars films. And despite authors' disagreements, I think Lucas managed to convince them to make it consistent enough.

    It's mostly my imagination, but I can fit certain TCW stories and even R1 and OBK as Expanded Universe stories in disguise as Disney canon.

    I prefer the original EU for many reasons, namely the ancient Jedi and Sith, such as Nomi Sunrider, Darth Zannah, and Satele Shan, as well as the distant Jedi and Sith of the future in Legacy. I like the original Clone Wars multi-media campaign which enhances the prequel era, and Legends Luke is my Luke...not the travesty that they somehow talked poor Mark Hamill into having to pretend to be in The Last Johnson. Notice how I didn't bother to put that in italics. Heh.

    I go back and forth as to whether Episode 9 was worse or The Last Johnson was. Oh, and I got The Last Johnson from Marcus Cosmonaut Picture Show. He may like TLJ, but I'm with him on the criticisms of TROS.

    The Expanded Universe was fine as it was. What it needed were more stories about Mon Mothma, Leia as a Jedi, and Jaina Solo as the Sword of the Jedi.
     
  17. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    From what I have seen, bashing of the EU has largely declined from the internet compared to when SW was bought by Disney and the EU decanonized. It still happens in some places, but it’s not as virulent as it used to be, at least from what I’ve seen.

    One effect the ST had on EU related discourse is a lot of people would defend or lionize the EU, simply in comparing it with the ST. Which fine, I think the EU is much superior to the ST-but I always also felt that treating it as though every work in it is a literary masterpiece(it’s definitely not), does a disservice to the EU and anyone trying to get into it. (As in people will develop very high expectations that will not be met, if they tried to get into it, having been told every book was amazing and perfect).

    Do the popular criticisms one sees of the EU hold much water? Often not at all, as they are to be entirely honest-often made in complete ignorance of the material condemned. At the same time, the EU had its flaws and shortcomings, and it is disingenuous to claim otherwise.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2022
  18. adve

    adve Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 23, 2016
    I agree with you. I took a lot of time away from the community, and I guess I left at a time when EU bashing was much more popular than it is now.