PT Obi Wan's true intention on Mustafar?

Obi-Wan was there to kill him, even if he didn't want to on the inside. I'm pretty sure he suspected Anakin was dead. I don't know how he found out he was alive though.

 

In the original EU, the story was that he was visiting Mos Eisley Cantina not too long after ROTS and saw on the holo an image of Vader and realized he was still alive. Not exactly sure what the explanation is now that all previous EU is non-canon.

 

BEN Remember, a Jedi can feel the Force
flowing through him.

LUKE You mean it controls your actions?

BEN Partially. But it also obeys your
commands.

So perhaps Obi-wan's behaviour on Mustafar was "partially" controlled by the Force, unless he felt some kind of necessity to justify his own actions on Mustafar later, blaming it on the Force?

 

What that means is that a Jedi can feel the Force when it guides their hand, like blocking a blaster bolt or flying a pod. It's not why Obi-wan didn't kill Anakin. Remember, Anakin said that Dooku was helpless and that it was wrong to kill him. Anakin was helpless and it was wrong to kill him with his Lightsaber.

 

Sorry I don't buy that for a second.

Yet Obi Wan had shown no hesitation or doubt killing other opponents like Maul or Grevious during combat. So why is it wrong for Obi not to kill Anakin during or after combat for this circumstance?

 

Maybe the fact that in both scenarios he was technically the one about the lose his life; in both instances he was hanging on for his life with his opponent waiting for him above him. Neither Maul or Grievous would be stopped unless directly killed either. I do agree that for the most part, Anakin was completely helpless at this point when lying on the banks of Mustafar, he wouldn't pose a threat to Obi Wan besides perhaps using the force, which Obi Wan had demonstrated he could most likely block any attempts. Anakin couldn't even stand at this point, let alone pose a serious threat with a weapon.

 

Obi-Wan's duty to the Jedi Order took priority over his closest friend, whom was now dead to him. Obi-Wan may have talked a little more than Yoda did, but he was still the first to draw his lightsaber and never backed down.

I'll agree that Obi-Wan may have been more defensive during the duel, but he's clearly fatigued near the end, while Anakin is ready to fight on. It was such a fitting conclusion because while Obi-Wan taught Anakin everything he knew, he still knew his only downfall was his arrogance. Hence why he had already predicted the outcome before Anakin even jumped.

 

darth-sinister wrote

What that means is that a Jedi can feel the Force when it guides their hand, like blocking a blaster bolt or flying a pod.

Sorry, but I'm not convinced that's all there is. I had always been under the impression that the Force rather had characteristics of the Holy Ghost, and the PT emphasized this through Qui-Gon who repeatedly spoke of the "will of the Force" in TPM:

QUI-GON : Finding him was the will of the Force...I have no doubt of that.

So determining what the will of the Force could have been on Mustafar might explain Obi-wan's actions there.

I can also go further (or back) to what happened in ANH. Kenobi sees Leias message and given his experience he could have figured out that the Empire was already on the planet looking for the missing Death Star plans. But rather than to communicate with Lars Homestead to warn them there is a danger (hmm...they don't seem to have communication devices on Tatooine?) it would seem he leaves everything up to the "will of the Force" and apparently decides not to interfere.

It could or would appear that only Qui-Gon could find Anakin because Qui-Gon believed in the will of the Force (and probably his padawan Obi-wan, too). Because Obi-Wan also believed in the will of the Force, he wouldn't interfere on Mustafar (i.e. kill Anakin) and therefore did the will of the Force so that ultimately the prophecy of the Chosen One could turn out to be true and be revealed by the end of ROJ.

 

Neither one was unarmed and helpless. Maul had his Lightsaber in hand and was taken unawares. Grievous had a weapon and was advancing for the kill. Anakin was unarmed, literally and unable to defend himself.

The will of the Force is not the same as the hand of God directing you. Obi-wan is talking about seeing things before they happen and letting the Force do this, so that you can protect yourself. As to the Lars, Obi-wan didn't warn them because he didn't know how Luke got the droids or that they were in trouble until they found the Sandcrawler and Luke told him that these were the same Jawas. Everything else is just your imagination and not what happens. Anakin says that a Jedi cannot kill someone who is helpless. That is the Jedi way and Obi-wan is a Jedi.

 

darth-sinister wrote

Obi-wan didn't warn them because he didn't know how Luke got the droids or that they were in trouble until they found the Sandcrawler and Luke told him that these were the same Jawas.

For somebody who has been involved and apparently has some experience in investigations and connecting the clues and dots, I'm not convinced (this is not "my imagination" but Interpretation / speculation based on the information Obi-wan could have easily concluded from Leia's message).

LEIA
General Kenobi, years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars. Now he begs you to help him in his struggle against the Empire. I regret that I am unable to present my father's request to you in person, but my ship has fallen under attack and I'm afraid my mission to bring you to Alderaan has failed.

Leia was on her way to him but her ship was attacked. It's obvious that this probably happened in the orbit of Tatooine and Obi-Wan can't exclude the possibility that Leia's attackers will follow a trail leading to him (especially for a man that himself has been successfully covering his tracks for two decades)

I have placed information vital to the survival of the Rebellion into the memory systems of this R2 unit. My father will know how to retrieve it. You must see this droid safely delivered to him on Alderaan. This is our most desperate hour. Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi, you're my only hope.

Neither is any kind of "rocket science" involved here. Leia had something extremely valuable in her posession, thus it stands to reason that the attackers will follow the trail that will ultimately lead to anyone who's gotten in touch with the droids.

Obi-Wan's reaction is rather logical. He doesn't decide to depart after breakfast or the later evening but instantaneously, also being aware that Leia's attackers and/or pursuers might soon show up on his doorstep. Yet he doesn't do the one thing one might expect from him, i.e. warn Owen and Beru Lars.

Either he can't (no form of possible communication to warn them), feels it's too dangerous (such a warning could perhaps enable the pursuers to pinpoint his location and thus threaten the security of Luke, the droids and himself and their mission) or he feels that he shouldn't interfere because it may be the will of the Force. (especially since the probability that this is just a coincidence is astronomically low, i.e. that the one person he's supposed to watch over arrives at his place with a message from that person's sister... )

In the latter case it might serve as a possible explanation why he left Anakin on Mustafar behind.

Just to say Anakin says that a Jedi cannot kill someone who is helpless. That is the Jedi way and Obi-wan is a Jedi. is a rather poor excuse, IMHO, for not putting somebody out of his misery who is about to die and endures terrible pain (at least put your hand on the individual and ease the suffering through the Force. ).

At least I would expect the Jedi to carry the equivalent of morpine with them. IIRC, the US military has been applying that since WW II - http://www.popsci.com/military-aviation-amp-space/article/2009-09/ - so I'm unable to see that an advanced civilization like the Republic never considered medication to ease the pain, especially during a time of war.

 

P.S.
A rather (IMHO) interesting detail from the almost final ANH screenplay from January 1, 1976:

BEN
This is the Empire’s work, they must be searching for Artoo. They tracked the robots from where they landed.
LUKE
If they tracked the robots here, they’ll continue to follow the trail until they… get… back… home.
Luke reaches a sudden horrible realization and races for the speeder and jumps in.
BEN
No Luke, it’s too dangerous, it’s too late.

According to that draft, Obi-Wan apparently already knew that Owen and Beru Lars had been killed.

 

He's conjecturing - which is pretty reasonable.

 

This is mirroring how Anakin is loosing his mother, because Obi Wan "education".
if Luke would have been home and trained as a Jedi,he would not have lost his family.

Why is Obi Wan starting the training of Luke only when Luke is 18 years old ?
Obi Wan is a very shadowy character even if most do not realize that.
I have seen the thread here mirroring Darth Sidious with Obi Wan and was stunned by some resemblances.

 

mihaitzateo

I don't think Obi-wan could be held accountable for what happened to Anakin's mother, it was Qui-Gon who insisted Anakin should become a Jedi.

We don't know the exact details about the agreement between Obi-wan and Owen and Beru Lars regarding the upbringing of Luke, I for one could imagine that Owen kept Luke longer in his service than originally agreed.

I rather think we are looking at a moral or philosophical issue. Assuming Obi-Wan "knew" it was too late (it's not in the final film or in the ANH novelization), he mustn't necessarily be wrong if according to "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one or the few" he decided not to interfere and thus accepted the death of Owen and Beru Lars for the greater good.

It becomes more obvious by the time of ESB, as both him and Yoda feel that Luke should not abandon his training to save Han and Leia on behalf of the greater good.

YODA
Decide you must how to serve
them best. If you leave now,
help them you could. But you
would destroy all for which they
have fought and suffered.

And IMHO, that's also the underlying theme in ROJ, i.e. Luke should kill Vader for the greater good, but instead decides that the needs of his father outweigh other concerns - which ultimately turns out to be the right thing, but which neither Yoda nor Obi-wan were able to predict or foresee.

 

Well, thing is like this:
Yoda's apprentice, maybe greatest Yoda apprentice, Count Dooku is joining the dark side and helps a lot Darth Sidious.
But before Dooku has joined the dark side, he has trained Qui Gonn as a Jedi knight.
Qui Gonn was also quite in a disagreement with Jedi Council.
Qui Gonn founds Anakin and insists to train him, despite the Jedi Council disagreeing with Qui Gonn.
Qui Gonn also trains Obi Wan.
Obi Wan later trains Anakin.

So, how come both Qui Gonn and Count Dooku strongly dislike Jedi Council?
As for Anakin, he joins the dark side.
Obi Wan does not seems a very light Jedi either.
So, there are a lot of weird things.

We are being said that Obi Wan has served senator Organa during the Clone Wars, what does that means? Was not Obi Wan supposed to serve the Jedi Council?
Did Obi Wan knew that from a Jedi point of view, is not that normal to do what he is doing?
Yoda was telling to Anakin to be careful about the too strong emotional attachment to someone, to not lead him to the dark side.
As for Obi Wan , he seems to have his own cause, different from the Jedis and his own way of action, also different from Jedis.
It seems Obi Wan does not really care about the relatives of Luke ,in that scene.
It seems Obi Wan does not really care about Padme's life, or even more, because Organa had doubts about Padme, maybe Obi Wan uses intentionally Padme's ship.
Obi Wan and Organa would not dare to kill Padme, being afraid of Anakin wrath, but, if they can make Anakin kill his own wife, because it serve their cause, why not?
I guess Obi Wan and Organa had their doubts, about Padme, since Padme has supported Darth Sidious, to get supreme leader of the Senate.
So, yes, I maintain my opinion that Obi Wan is a very,very shadowy character and seems to be on his own side, not on Jedi's side,neither on Sith side.

 

Or he didn't think that the Empire would track the droids to the Lars until they found the Sandcrawler. Obi-wan knows that he has to go to Alderaan, that isn't the issue. The idea that he wouldn't interfere because of the will of the Force is, because that's not what Jedi do. Obi-wan doesn't even think that Luke will be in danger going back to the farm. He tells Luke that he must decide his own fate, he won't force him to do so.

No, he left him to burn. Nothing to do with the will of the Force.

As I pointed out, he wasn't feeling merciful.

The Jedi use the Force to suppress pain for themselves. The Clonetroopers and medics carried Bacta and other medical items.

 

This line kinda confused me after the PT was wrapped up. I mean Bail obviously knew Obi Wan, and he assisted Obi and Yoda in fleeing from Palps, but the way it was written in ANH kinda makes it sound like Obi Wan was Bail's contract Jedi. The only way I can wrap my head around it is that they were both on the same side during the Clone Wars, and both of importance in their own fields. I didn't watch the full series of TCW, so I'm unsure if there was a mission with the two of them, but it didn't seem like they really ever had that much contact at all.. besides the jam session on the Tantive IV and giving Leia to Bail in ROTS.

 

As per ANH the Jedi were the keepers of peace and justice in the Old Republic, they served the Republic, and weren't some rogue group of vigilantes that ran around the entire universe dispensing justice as they saw fit. So when we got into the PT, we see the Jedi serve the Republic through the Senate, which a Senate is supposed to be the voice of the people. Bail Organa is a Senator of the Republic in the Senate that the Jedi serve as it is the voice of the people (well supposed to be anyway). During the Clone Wars individual Jedi would work a lot closer with individual Senators as the war engulfed more and more systems. So it's not hard to believe that Bail, being one of the more prominent Senators, often had direct contact with Obi Wan (being a member of the Jedi Council) during the Clone Wars.

So Obi Wan, as a Jedi that served the Senate, served Bail Organa, as a member of the Senate that the Jedi served, well during the clone wars.

 

Well,ok, but we are seeing again same thing told in Rogue One, that Obi Wan was friend of Organa.
Why it was not said that Obi Wan served the Republic or democracy, but we are being told in two different movies that Obi Wan actually served Bail Organa?
So, yes as someone above said, it looks like Obi Wan interests and loyalty are with Bail Organa, neither with the Jedi Order, neither with the Sith, neither with the Republic.
Well as other person said in another thread, in PT everyone is far from being perfect.
And I think is same in Original Trilogy but people did not studied in depth the movie.

 

@mihaitzeo wrote

Why it was not said that Obi Wan served the Republic or democracy, but we are being told in two different movies that Obi Wan actually served Bail Organa?

What kind of service Obi-Wan provided Bail Organa with during the Clone Wars just hadn't been flashed out by the time ANH was written (Vader and Luke's father were still two different physical beings). It wasn't until the first draft of ESB we would have gotten a further glimpse at the original Clone Wars, i.e. Lando was originally a clone on the run that found asylum in the cloud city of "Hoth".

With that original context in mind, I'd believe that Bail Organa and Obi-Wan were originally helping such clones, hence Leia's original wording in the holo-message.

 

I think Bail Organa was seeing things differently from ,for example, Padme.
Padme said that "this war is a failure to listen".
However, Organa I think was not of the same opinion as Padme was.
If I do remember right, it is Obi Wan who influences Jedi Council a lot , in using the Clone army.
What about Senate?
Maybe Organa is one of the main supporters of using the Clone Wars.
So what I want to say is that Obi Wan and Organa are actually thinking as Anakin was thinking "more action,less deliberating is good".
Where they did not agreed was Senator Palpatine.
I think Obi Wan would have agreed with a dictatorship,in the Senate, but under Bail Organa.
So what I am saying is that as Anakin had Palpatine as favorite supreme leader of the Senate, Obi Wan has as favorite Organa as supreme leader of the Senate.
If we watch at ROTS , Organa is the main leader of the Resistance.
After 18 years,in "A new hope" Organa is still the supreme leader of the Resistance.
Is weird that Obi Wan was very concerned about Palpatine staying too much as supreme leader of the Senate, which means 10 years or so, but he is not at all
concerned about Organa being supreme leader of the Resistance, for 20+ years.

 

Indeed, it was a struggle for Obi-Wan. Both the morality and the Jedi Code, but also something un-Jedi-like: feelings. Or perhaps it was something very Jedi-like according to Anakin: compassion. Either way, Obi-Wan couldn't kill a brother. And he was always an optimist. No matter how bleak thing seemed on Mustafar, there must have been an inkling of hope somewhere in him, even if he wasn't consciously aware of it at the time.

Obi-Wan probably helped Bail out during during the dark times; after all, those two were in this from the start at Polis Maasa. And Bail being one of the key figures in the Rebellion, I figure one might say that Obi-Wan served.

 

Right because of what happened in ROTS, where the three of them agreed to hide the children and wait until the time was right. Bail Organa became friends with both Jedi and Bail told Mon Mothma that Obi-wan was alive, but in hiding.

Obi-wan did serve the Senate, of which Bail Organa was one member. Obi-wan said that he and the other Jedi pledged their allegiance to the government and not the man who runs it. Bail Organa aided Obi-wan and Yoda during the Jedi Purge, thus cementing a bond of friendship. Bail Organa did not support the war. He was against it as much as Padme was. That's what the Loyalist Committee was. A group of senators who were loyal to the ideals of the Republic and not to war. Obi-wan does not support a dictatorship. Nor do the Jedi as a whole. In the Alliance, Bail is not the leader. Nor is Mon Mothma. They shared leadership duties, with Mon Mothma being the public face and Bail being the behind-the-scenes supporter. The Alliance is not a government. It is a military organization made up of various pockets of resistance. The goal was that when the war was over and the Alliance won, the Senate would return and it would be as it was before Palpatine. Which is what happens in the New Republic.

 

1. He didn't want either Vader or the Emperor to sense Luke's presence, thus prompting them to either send their imperial troops after Luke and Obi-wan or they hunt them down themselves.
2. Owen Lars wouldn't allow Obi-wan to train Luke at any point in time. In Obi-wan's own words, "He'd feared you follow old Obi-wan on some damn fool, idealistic crusade like your father did."
3. Obi-wan didn't want to repeat the same mistakes he made with Anakin. Not only did he fail to properly guide him through the ways of the force or reach out to him on a personal level, but Obi-wan also unwittingly and unknowingly allowed Anakin to befriend a Sith lord. This applies to no. 1 because Obi-wan didn't want Luke to be influenced by any Sith lords like Anakin was.

 

Fwiw, in the 2008 Wild Space novel, Kenobi assists Organa on an important mission.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mission_to_Zigoola

A great story, btw.