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Rogue One [Official Info] Diego Luna (Captain Cassian Andor) in Rogue One

Discussion in 'Anthology' started by starocean90, May 13, 2015.

  1. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 8

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    Apr 6, 2018
    Um, he wasn’t willing to kill Galen after that. He literally DIDN’T kill him when he had the chance.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2021
  2. TCF-1138

    TCF-1138 Anthology/Fan Films/NSA Mod & Ewok Enthusiast star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Sep 20, 2002
    He proceeded with the intention of following his orders, which is understandable as he'd been a soldier since he was a child, and was therefore pretty much brainwashed. But when the moment came, he disobeyed his orders and stood down.
    So yeah, knowing that Galen had been coerced did change his mind.
     
  3. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

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    Nov 20, 2012
    When he found out that Galen was going to replace Johnny Depp as Grindelwald, he stood down in joy. Those damn Rebels doomed the GFFA to a universe where Nicolas Cage now has to play Grindelwald.
     
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  4. TCF-1138

    TCF-1138 Anthology/Fan Films/NSA Mod & Ewok Enthusiast star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Sep 20, 2002
    Wat.
     
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  5. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Dec 21, 2019
    Mikkelsen is, I believe, replacing Johnny Depp as Grindlewald. Not really fair to Depp, I suppose, given what we know now about so much of the stuff that's been said about him, but IMO he did'nt really work in the role to begin with.

    My roommate's super happy about it, as she loves Mikkelsen and is'nt really that big a fan of post-Jack Sparrow Depp.
     
  6. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 8

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    Apr 6, 2018
    Johnny Depp hasn’t been good since What’s Eating Gilbert Grape. A total blowhard in real life too. Mikkelsen wipes the floor with him on every level as a human being and an actor.
    I wouldn’t necessarily call it being brainwashed. It’s simply that when given the order, his understanding (based on the information he had) was that Galen Erso was the lead scientist on the Death Star project - a weapon that could destroy entire planets. One doesn’t have to be brainwashed to believe that such a person should be terminated. But as you note, once Cassian has more information about who he is, what he’s doing, and why he’s doing it, he spares his life. I don’t see anything morally problematic with him from that point forward.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2021
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  7. TCF-1138

    TCF-1138 Anthology/Fan Films/NSA Mod & Ewok Enthusiast star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Sep 20, 2002
    A soldier since age six (based on the information we have now - that can obviously change once Andor is released) is probably something very close to brainwashed into following orders. Honestly, all too many adult soldiers are too - which is why you get phenomena like Befehl ist Befehl (the Nuremberg Defence).
     
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  8. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 8

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    Apr 6, 2018
    Right, but given that Cassian disobeyed the order after learning new info about Galen, it’s safe to say that his brain wasn’t quite washed. He understood the wrongness of executing the order in that moment.

    Not to mention that the Rebellion was rooted in a belief in a democratic system. So I don’t think a Nazi analogy quite fits. These were soldiers who were freely fighting, and could stop at any time to open up a bakery, if they so chose.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2021
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  9. TCF-1138

    TCF-1138 Anthology/Fan Films/NSA Mod & Ewok Enthusiast star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Sep 20, 2002
    "Brainwashed" might not be quite the right word, but indoctrinated into the chain of command. Which he absolutely was, which is why his change of heart is a big deal.

    And I wasn't making a Nazi analogy, I was making a comment on how soldiers usually work, using the most obvious example. Following orders is, after all, what a soldier is expected to do. It's not as if other soldiers than the nazis haven't used Befehl ist Befehl to defend their atrocities.
     
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  10. Lobot's Wig

    Lobot's Wig Jedi Knight star 4

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    Dec 13, 2020
    I agree. Cassian has been in the fight so long and is so entrenched in the cause and its aims that he has effectively become desensitized to having to kill to pursue the Rebellion's goals. That he starts to question himself and find his humanity again after being with Jyn is a large part of his arc.
     
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  11. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 8

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    Apr 6, 2018
    Understood. I’m simply saying that soldiers fighting for a democratic system are quite a different breed (generally, not always) from soldiers fighting for an authoritarian system. Soldiers in any military are “generally” expected to follow orders/ chain of command, but in democratic systems, soldiers (or troops, as soldiers are generally just Army) are taught to disobey and/ or report unlawful or unconstitutional orders that violate the standards of said democracy, further up the chain of command (or to an independent Inspector General, for example, which is why Trump firing a Pentagon Inspector General for doing his job was so heinous - it destroyed the ability for troops to report unlawful conduct by their superiors). Soldiers in democratic systems who commit atrocities are (or should be) prosecuted, while in authoritarian systems, they are protected (another reason the current US President is so disastrous - his coddling of US war criminals).

    I imagine the Rebel Alliance having that kind of culture - they fight, and fight ugly sometimes, but they are not required to follow unlawful orders AND, most importantly, they fight voluntarily. Cassian can leave if we wants to, after all.

    In short, and from experience, painting all soldiers with the broad brush of “people who basically follow orders blindly” or are “nearly brainwashed” is pretty wide of the mark. That’s just not the reality of it, and I didn’t get the impression that Cassian was that type of soldier. And certainly not after Eadu.

    Him joining the fight at six is interesting. But that doesn’t mean he’s not aware he has a choice. And clearly he has a moral code that he won’t violate “for the Rebellion,” given his ultimate actions towards Galen.
    I don’t disagree with that at all. My point was simply that a soldier killing in the name of the Rebellion against a galactic fascist regime is different from a soldier killing in the name of a galactic fascist regime. The former is fighting for a democratic system, which implies a belief in certain ideals of freedom, and is therefore less likely to feel compelled/ coerced/ brainwashed into blindly following orders. Cassian was generally OK with doing bad things for the Rebellion, but he wasn’t so brainwashed as to not recognize an immoral order. And so he’s open to the influence Jyn has on him, and that’s a large part of his arc. He goes from generally not questioning his chain of command, to questioning it. If he were brainwashed, that process would’ve taken a lot longer. But his mind was open enough to allow the change.

    It’s like Han’s arc. Even when Han was a selfish smuggler, he was a good guy underneath. And his arc shows him realizing that. Cassian was also a good guy underneath. And his arc shows him realizing that.

    He’s Humphrey Bogart in Casablanca. Does bad things because he’s grown cynically practical, but a good guy behind the frown.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2021
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  12. Lobot's Wig

    Lobot's Wig Jedi Knight star 4

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    Dec 13, 2020
    I think that what the narrative is trying to suggest is that if it weren't for meeting Jyn, he would have shot Galen without hesitation. He doesn't hesitate when Draven tells him to forget what he heard in the briefing room and kill Galen, no extraction. He nods in unquestioning acknowledgement (even with a wry smile) and immediately heads for the ship. I always imagine that this is something Cassian has had to do a few times before.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2021
  13. TCF-1138

    TCF-1138 Anthology/Fan Films/NSA Mod & Ewok Enthusiast star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Sep 20, 2002
    I think this is getting too political for this thread/forum, so I'll leave my comments as is and say let's move on with less real-life comparisons, though I'd be happy to discuss this further in the Senate or in PM. :)
     
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  14. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 8

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    Apr 6, 2018
    Agreed. But I don’t think it’s just about meeting Jyn. It’s also about having information (that Jyn gives him) which would make following the order immoral. So he had a moral core that needed a nudge. By Jyn, and by the facts on the ground changing. If Galen was helping the Rebellion, why kill him? His arc was to stop being so dogmatic, so obedient to the chain of command, and to open himself to others (like Jyn), and to trust himself. He decides to trust Jyn and his instincts and so disobeys Draven’s order.
    Agreed. But it’s really no more political than Star Wars is. And it’s basic. Essentially, fascist soldiers are worse than soldiers of democracies. :) For the most part. Not always...
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2021
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  15. Lobot's Wig

    Lobot's Wig Jedi Knight star 4

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    Dec 13, 2020
    I agree @Bor Mullet, I just needed a nudge to make me like you, to push me out of the light [face_laugh][face_laugh]

    I think that the scene immediately after when Jyn confronts Cassian on the ship about it is one of the best acted scenes in any Star Wars live action.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2021
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  16. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 10

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    Oct 4, 1998
    There's no direct evidence for this, but I'd like to believe that the Rebels operate on similar principles to the military I served in, with similar policies like the Geneva Convention. IRL, US soldiers are told explicitly and directly that it is illegal to obey an illegal order; I was briefed on that repeatedly, usually just before deploying to a combat zone. The briefer also came right out and explained that the "just following orders" defense had been rejected at the Nuremberg trials for Nazis as well as the trials for American soldiers who committed the My Lai massacre in Vietnam. The briefings also explained how we were to respond to illegal orders: question them, report them up the chain of command, and notify the Inspector General's office. In short, there's no tolerance expected for breaking the law by following orders in the US military, and in my headcanon the Rebel Alliance operates the same way.
     
  17. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 8

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    Apr 6, 2018
    Agreed 100%. Though I do believe there's evidence in the story to support this. The fact that...

    1. Mon Mothma tasked Cassian with bringing Galen Erso to the Senate, rather than assassinating him
    2. Mon Mothma noting that the Rebel Alliance broke with Saw Gerrera due to his extreme methods
    3. Draven seems to be asking Cassian to illegally disobey Mon Mothma's order (meaning it violates the rule of the Rebel Alliance)

    ...suggests that the Rebel Alliance does indeed operate on democratically-inspired principals consistent with the Geneva Convention, etc. That's evidence enough for me - bolstered by the fact that it's an Alliance to restore a Republic.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2021
  18. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Dec 21, 2019
    I actually agree with you on this (personally he was never really my cup of tea to begin with and the only files I outright like him as an actor are the Pirates films and From Hell), I was just saying that the recent plot twists in his legal battles have thrown the reasons he (seemingly) got removed from the role into doubt so it's probobly not fair to him as a person (blowhard or not) to still lose the role. I was'nt referring to him as an actor and I'm not going to shed any tears over it, as I don't think he was right at all for Grindelwald and I found his performence to be the weakest parts of the two Fantastic Beast films.

    "Jyn, I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendsh..."

    *gets disintegrated by the Death Star's superlaser*

    I belive the first person known to have used the Neremburg defense was in 1474 (his defense was rejected and he was convicted of war crimes and beheaded), so not only has it been used by other people, but it long predates the Nazis (the guy was German though[face_laugh]).

    I think it's possible he might have; but only becuase Cassian in this situation would presumably have been the one to talk to saw and see the message, so in that case he'd have firsthand knowledge indicating Erso's more valuable alive then dead rather then hearing it from Jyn.



    Presumably the Yavin Convention.
     
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  19. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 10, 2015
    I think the reason that Mothma looks at Draven when she mentions Saw Guerra's extremism is because Draven is fairly close to Saw in terms of that type of warfare. I think she, Bail, and the other Rebel leaders prefer the Alliance to be the direct opposite of the Empire, whereas Draven is like one of those Rebels we saw in the EU who wanted to basically burn Coruscant. Tbh, I actually misunderstood the context of the scene during which Draven orders Cassian to kill Galen Erso the first time I saw the film. I thought that Draven was quietly telling him what the actual mission was because they didn't want Jyn to know about it. But upon a second viewing, I realized that this guy was a ruthless jerk. It was mainly because I paid more attention to Jyn Erso's characterization the first time, whereas I paid more attention to Cassian's during my second viewing. He looks reticent, although he's trying to hide it, after Draven gives him that order. You can that this man has been ordered to kill so many people or put into situations where he felt he was forced to do so, and it's weighing on his conscience. Ya kinda feel sorry for him. It makes his decision to go with Jyn's plan at the beginning of the final act convincing.

    One thing that's always struck me about the film is that both Jyn and Cassian look older than they are. This may be just my interpretation, and while I do realize this is because Felicity Jones and Diego Luna were in their 30s when this film was produced, but to me, Jyn and Cassian are in their 20s but look older than they are due to the stressful circumstances of the Empire's rule. I'd also apply this to Chirrut, Baze, and Bodhi to a certain extent. More so with Bodhi, although Chirrut and Baze probably didn't have a good time on Jedha. It just speaks to the overall oppression and anxiety that the Empire inflicts on people. And given what I know about Jyn's background from other media, I understand it. I'm looking forward to learning more about Cassian in this new series.

    I guess it's a matter of personal preference, but I like the stories portrayed in between Episodes III and IV that we've seen so far. Rogue One was the story I enjoyed the most due to the dumpster fire that Episdes 8 and 9 turned out to be, and Obi-Wan Kenobi is my favorite story to have released post-R1. I imagine I'll like Andor, too. This is mostly because I liked the Dark Times stories from the old EU, such as the Force Unleashed games and K'Kruhk's adventures. It's interesting to follow the stories of someone like Cassian who has been deeply affected by his fight with the Empire. If you think about it, he's a fairly joyless man whose only source of happiness in life was prolly Jyn Erso, which makes me feel sad for him.
     
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  20. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Dec 21, 2019
    For what it's worth, Draven gets a nice redemption in one of the Marvel comics, and stright-up admits that he was in the wrong.

    Stress (and/or hard lives) are the explanation I apply to a lot of people in SW who look older then they are due to the age of their actors (Luke and Leia in the ST, Obi-Wan in the OT. Cassian and Jyn. Boba in TBoBF, ect.

    Though Chirrut and Baze, IMO, do look their ages.
     
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  21. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

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    Jan 5, 2011
    The conversation over the last two or three pages was interesting to read. It all kinda misses the point for me. I wouldn't bother to argue whether Cassian had regrets, remorse, or whatever. I don't care if he does, I don't need him to. I certainly wouldn't bother to argue whether or not he apologized. Cassian has the right response to that: "I don't have to". I don't care if killing the informant was a mercy; I love that he killed him. It's such a stunning start to the movie. It's my favorite part of the movie. The movie might have been better if it were the very opening scene. Entirely downhill from there, unfortunately. I also wouldn't care if he killed Galen despite knowing the whole story. I think it would have been better if he had.
     
  22. Darth_Accipiter

    Darth_Accipiter Force Ghost star 6

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    Feb 2, 2015
  23. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 10

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    Oct 4, 1998
  24. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 8

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    Apr 6, 2018
    It is a pretty cool sounding name.
     
  25. MotivateR5D4

    MotivateR5D4 Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 20, 2015
    I've had that name since I was six years old.
     
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